The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[thedisappearer 291]

Babcock may be the coach, and thus the boss, but he should know that you've got to treat people reasonably and you've got to show people respect who have earned respect.

Did you apply this rationale to Bowman, who damn near ran Yzerman out of town, and treated all the players like s***? Doubtful...

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

With how your brain works the answer would be......yes! Also I hate to break it to you but the Ducks are capable of beating any team in this league on any night. That team is playoff battle tested and plays hard against us. They lost some players and had some injuries but they can play. Any hockey fan knows this.

They can, but don't the majority of the time.

That's the point.

[gcom007 1,465]

With how your brain works the answer would be......yes! Also I hate to break it to you but the Ducks are capable of beating any team in this league on any night. That team is playoff battle tested and plays hard against us. They lost some players and had some injuries but they can play. Any hockey fan knows this.

Yet they don't.

You could say that about almost any team in the league this year, playoff tested or not. I won't argue that the Ducks aren't underachieving this year, but the bottom line is that they're not winning too much, and they're not even dealing with near the amount of injuries we've had to. Scoring is ultimately what killed us again last night, but you're out of your mind if you don't think every Red Wing on the ice, Howard included, simply didn't show up for the first that night. We had no urgency as a team, we gave the puck away and Howard couldn't handle control the puck in rebounds or otherwise at all, let alone staying in position. I certainly don't hold the loss against Howard, but he played as big of a role in it as anyone. This was a game that could have and should have been won.

[Pucks 66]

They can, but don't the majority of the time.

That's the point.

Weird....They seem to give us all we can handle most every time we play them. The season series is usually pretty split, playoffs especially.

[gcom007 1,465]

You're gonna get nitpicked for this one: Hasek was fine in '07. The Wings were the victims of the most absurd misfortune imaginable and the thought of there being any justice in this universe was obliterated, but Hasek was not deserving of any blame.

I agree that Hasek didn't give Babcock much to screw up, but I think he definitely was showing signs of his age at times. The tenacity he had that made him a big game goalie seemed lacking. He had more than a few occasions where he seemed to be lacking mental toughness, and most didn't end badly enough for people to raise a stink about it as the team was strong most of the season, but hell, you can search for it, I absolutely called it out and questioned how he would respond when the pressure was really on. I wasn't convinced he had what it takes to go the distance, and if he did, it wasn't going to come ignoring the issue. But we were mostly winning, and then all the injuries became the easy thing to focus on. I absolutely agree that our fortune was terrible, but I also think we saw the first signs of the 2008 Hasek in the playoffs as well.

I don't think anyone can sit here and tell me that even with injuries accounted for, Hasek would have played such a horrible Game 6 even just a year or two earlier. The guy was a warrior, but he was 42. I'm not saying Babcock should've gone with Osgood then or switched them up or anything, but I just question whether or not Babcock was realistic in assessing what Hasek could handle. Again, the only change would've been things discussed and addressed at various points in time. Basically, I don't think Babcock accounted for the possibility of Hasek s***ting the bed in the biggest game of the season and thus I think it's likely he didn't coach Hasek in a manner that might've gotten him through it.

I'm not making this up now either. Hell, like I said, you can search for it if you want. I was saying this s*** through the regular season and the playoffs. I know it's a bit nit-picky, I'm just saying, it's not totally out of left-field either.

[gcom007 1,465]

Just read this. It highlights not only my concerns with the goaltending situation but my lack of enthusiasm for certain people returning. Let's just say I'll be thrilled to have Kronwall, Z and Franzen back and happy enough for Cleary and Ericsson's returns. But I think Williams and Flip are redundant parts of this team and especially in regards to Flip, I think his $3 million would be far better spent on a guy who can contribute more consistent offense, in particular, goals. Like I've said all along, Flips a solid player but he's redundant on this team. We're strong defensively and weak offensively, so what good does another $3 million defensive-minded center with a s*** shot do for us? And I'm not hating Williams like I have or like some still do, but he's still just inconsistent and he's always just seemed a bit too apathetic. I think the whole "not gelling" thing really boils down to the lack of balance amongst our forwards. Not enough offensive minded guys, too many defensive minded guys. I tend to think we'll be fine especially if guys like Williams don't automatically get spots back if guys outplay him, but I think this is a bigger question mark than some have acknowledged.

And of course, the goaltending issue (bolded) goes along with my biggest concerns for this team in the second half. I think the offense will straighten out especially if we can swing a nice little deal before the deadline. But I still am worried that Babcock's opening up a can of worms with the goalies...

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100105/OP...it-in-standings

"Reasons to stress

Mike Babcock said it best. Will the Wings still work as hard and grind out games once all the talent comes back? They weren't exactly blowing teams away before the injuries started piling up. The offense wasn't clicking early and the defense was spotty. Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk got off to slow starts. There's no guarantee that the injured players will all come back and start lighting it up.

There will be another adjustment process. Lines will be re-drawn a few more times. Some players who had been contributing in the first half will lose their ice time and perhaps their roster spot. The chemistry will change.

Also, as good as Jimmy Howard has been, at some point Chris Osgood will have to be re-established as the No. 1 goalie. It's unlikely the Wings want to put their playoff hopes on the shoulders of a rookie goalie. Osgood has been the best playoff goalie in the league the last two years.

But the process of getting him re-established could be rough. What if Howard continues to keep his save percentage above .920? What if the Wings continue to roll with him in net? When does Osgood get a chance to get his rhythm back? What happens when Osgood comes back and maybe struggles for a game or two?

Teams have been torn apart by lesser issues.

Finally, which teams in the Western Conference are going to falter? Had the Wings not gone 3-0-1 in their last four, they would have found themselves seven or eight points out of the eighth spot, instead of three. All the teams ahead of them are on winning streaks right now. And with all the three-point games (one point for an overtime or shootout loss), leapfrogging teams is tough.

The Wings have given themselves no margin for error. There are no throwaway games from here on out."

[Outsider 42]

You're gonna get nitpicked for this one: Hasek was fine in '07. The Wings were the victims of the most absurd misfortune imaginable and the thought of there being any justice in this universe was obliterated, but Hasek was not deserving of any blame.

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with gcom on this one, too.

Dom was pretty damned fantastic in Game 1, but he wasn't exactly lights out in Game 2. After Malts tied it up at 1-1 with that shorty, Dom gave up an ugly one like a minute later to put Anaheim back up by a goal. Then Nick on the PP for the 2-2 Tie, then Pavs 1:00 into the 3rd on the 5-on-3, for the 3-2 lead. That lasted all of 4 minutes as Dom "carried" the puck into the net on top of his body, to bring it back to all even at 3-3. Niedermayer's OT Game Winner was downright ugly.

Dom came back with a terrific performance in Game 3 with a shut out, but looked pretty bad again in Game 4. Perry's goal less than 2:00 in was fugly. Ric Jackman's goal was equally bad. As was Selanne's to make it 3-1. The Wings battled back with hard working, gritty goals to make it 3-3 heading into the 3rd, when Getzlaf fired it from above he right circle and caught Dom guessing wrong. All in all, he gave up 4 goals on 22 shots that night. Series tied 2-2.

Game 5 wasn't that bad a performance, statistically speaking, and you could argue that the GTG by Niedermayer came on a bulls*** call, AND a fantastic tip.....but Selanne's GW in OT was a very sad panda type of goal. Dom was flailing around on the ice while the Finnish Flash picked his corner, top shelf.

Game 6? Are you honestly gonna characterize that as a "good" Game from Hasek? Com on now....Nied's shorty was bad enough, but Dom was flat on his back, doing snow angels on the ice for an ETERNITY, on THREE of the four goals that night. He wasn't good. Period.

You need to re-watch that Series, man....

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Niedermayer's OT goal was through a screen. He just floated a stupid little wrister at the net, 99 times out of 100 that hits something, or goes wide. Because they were the Ducks it picked the corner. And Dom was just being Dom on Lilja's loopy disaster, I'm not gonna hold it against him, he made a living out of that.

I don't know how it is you remember each and every goal from each game but I sure don't, only the ones that tore my heart out. You sound like you're being pretty nit-picky though, it's easy to make the goalie the bad guy even though 2-3 goals are going to go in most games no matter what. I don't ever remember being upset at his performance in that series or those playoffs -- obviously quite the opposite as I've already expressed.

[gcom007 1,465]

Niedermayer's OT goal was through a screen. He just floated a stupid little wrister at the net, 99 times out of 100 that hits something, or goes wide. Because they were the Ducks it picked the corner. And Dom was just being Dom on Lilja's loopy disaster, I'm not gonna hold it against him, he made a living out of that.

I don't know how it is you remember each and every goal from each game but I sure don't, only the ones that tore my heart out. You sound like you're being pretty nit-picky though, it's easy to make the goalie the bad guy even though 2-3 goals are going to go in most games no matter what. I don't ever remember being upset at his performance in that series or those playoffs -- obviously quite the opposite as I've already expressed.

I'm not saying Hasek was the bad guy. I think he played really well considering his age. I think perhaps Babcock didn't pay enough mind to the fact that Hasek was slipping though, and thus I think he was less than prepared in general in icing a team most likely to win. That doesn't mean pull Hasek either. That means have a plan for dealing with the issue should it arise and do all you can to have Dom ready. I don't think he did either.

He talks about goaltending being so "simple" in that you ride the guy who's winning. And sure, that's part of it, but there's a lot of other stuff to consider that I think he fails to factor in. Again, I think we've seen numerous examples of this the entire time he's been here.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I'm not saying Hasek was the bad guy. I think he played really well considering his age. I think perhaps Babcock didn't pay enough mind to the fact that Hasek was slipping though, and thus I think he was less than prepared in general in icing a team most likely to win. That doesn't mean pull Hasek either. That means have a plan for dealing with the issue should it arise and do all you can to have Dom ready. I don't think he did either.

I probably should have quoted Outsider because that's who I was directing the post to. I don't have much to say about this in particular, and I didn't mean to derail the thread to talk about Hasek, I was just annoyed at your original post there, which you've validated in your own way, so carry on everybody.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[Outsider 42]

Niedermayer's OT goal was through a screen. He just floated a stupid little wrister at the net, 99 times out of 100 that hits something, or goes wide. Because they were the Ducks it picked the corner. And Dom was just being Dom on Lilja's loopy disaster, I'm not gonna hold it against him, he made a living out of that.

I don't know how it is you remember each and every goal from each game but I sure don't, only the ones that tore my heart out. You sound like you're being pretty nit-picky though, it's easy to make the goalie the bad guy even though 2-3 goals are going to go in most games no matter what. I don't ever remember being upset at his performance in that series or those playoffs -- obviously quite the opposite as I've already expressed.

Not for nothing, and I'm not saying this to be an ass or anything, but.....

There is very little I "forget". I have to actively purge my memory, as a matter fact. Been that way since I was 11 or 12 years old. I'm terrible with names, oddly enough.....but everything else becomes kind of like a picture once my brain snaps a shot of it. If I want it gone, I have to actively "get rid" of it. It's why I remember quotes and plays from various players and games from years ago.

It's also (part of what) I get paid to do.

<shrug>

Was that Off Topic enough, or what?

[Miller Brew 0]

I wonder if they should give Osgood a few games to help him get into his groove.

[Outsider 42]

I wonder if they should give Osgood a few games to help him get into his groove.

Babcock has benched Osgood for absolutely no justifiable reason. I can see giving Howard MORE Starts because he's played well, but there is NO reason to keep Osgood on the bench completely for nearly two months. No logical reason, anyway.

Babcock is playing games. He's got a degree in Sports Psychology, and he's paying head games. It's what he does. Babcock has decided that that Osgood will not play. And it has nothing to do with when Osgood is "ready" but more to do with when BABCOCK is "ready". Until then, he's going to ride Howard until the wheels fall off, and when they do, he'll toss Osgood out there, completely cold.

Hopefully Chris can respond. If not, he'll be thrown to the wolves for something he had no control over, and something which is not remotely close to being his fault.

And Babcock will be able to say:

"I gave him his opportunity, and he blew it."

[interminded 1]

Mike Babcock is handling this situation very poorly.

He never rode a goalie this long all these years.

Granted, Jimmy is playing good, but after a loss and six consecutive games, he can't play Ozzie ONCE ??

That's a kick in the balls for any goaltender.

Especially for one who brought you a Stanley Cup the last two years and to game 7 of the Stanley Cup last spring...

[Outsider 42]

Mike Babcock is handling this situation very poorly.

He never rode a goalie this long all these years.

Granted, Jimmy is playing good, but after a loss and six consecutive games, he can't play Ozzie ONCE ??

That's a kick in the balls for any goaltender.

Especially for one who brought you a Stanley Cup the last two years and to game 7 of the Stanley Cup last spring...

The bolded part is not true, interminded.

Legace got many, many consecutive Starts in 2005-2006. That was excellent handling of the goaltender situation. If there's one thing Babs knows....

It's goalies.

Also:

The sure-fire future Hall-of-Famer, (he who could easily be the Starter for plenty of other Teams, but chooses to continue to accept back up positions), Ty Conklin, saw 7 consecutive Starts last Season.

The rest of your post? I agree with 110%.

**Edited to remove sarcastic overstatement**

Edited January 7, 2010 by Outsider

[interminded 1]

The bolded part is not true, interminded.

Legace got many, many consecutive Starts in 2005-2006. That was excellent handling of the goaltender situation. If there's one thing Babs knows....

It's goalies.

Also:

The sure-fire future Hall-of-Famer, (he who could easily be the Starter for plenty of other Teams, but chooses to continue to accept back up positions), Ty Conklin, saw 7 consecutive Starts last Season.

The rest of your post? I agree with 110%.

**Edited to remove sarcastic overstatement**

Okay, when you're right, you're right.

However, I don't think Babcock is great in handling goalie situations. Not that he sucks at it, but he's not great.

He was lucky when Legace turned in the greatest october of his career. He did collapse in the playoffs however, with Babcock unwilling to fully appreciate that situation for what it was: a meltdown.

If he wants to play Jimmy because he's the hot hand, I totally get it.

Just show some respect to someone with the credentials of Chris Osgood.

[Guest zackmorris]

Outsider...man, c'mon. The whole "doghouse" thing is bulls***. You only started using that as your go-to excuse after the news came out. Suddenly, according to you, it'd been going on all along.

Tell us more oh wise one, who seems to curiously have more inside info than anyone else in Michigan

Gotta go with Pucks on this. He's being realistic and straightforward-you guys are making excuses and conjuring up ways to make his words look wrong. He's right about the Ducks-they don't win consistently this season but you're high if you think they're truly as bad as their record indicates. Hell, we're 9th place and no one in the NHL would be surprised to lose to us.

Hasek also didn't screw up that bad. He was, as was said, on the unfortunate end of some of the worst luck I've ever seen. No goalie would've made the save on the goals he let in. Truth be told, he could've took a game off, came back and probably done just as well as he did in game 1 and 2. But we won the Cup so no one thinks of it.

[Guest zackmorris]

Oh and the whole "he never rode a goalie like this once" thing...maybe that has alot to do with the fact we're lower in the standings than we have been since he got here, and have to play the hot hand.

Or you could just be like Outsider and blindly agree because it helps your argument.

[Outsider 42]

Hasek also didn't screw up that bad. He was, as was said, on the unfortunate end of some of the worst luck I've ever seen. No goalie would've made the save on the goals he let in. Truth be told, he could've took a game off, came back and probably done just as well as he did in game 1 and 2. But we won the Cup so no one thinks of it.

Wow. Just.....wow.

Firstly, those who are referring to "luck" being against us, rather than spotty goaltending, were referring to Dom's performance in 2007, against the Ducks - NOT in 2008, against the Preds when "we won the Cup so no one thinks of it."

Everyone except for you, that is.

And if you think that Dom was simply on the "unfortunate end of some of the worst luck", OR that "no goalie would've made the save on the goals he let in", then you're not only ten times more blind than you accuse me of being, you're also certifiably insane. The first two goals against in Game 3 you could argue, although the first was "iffy". The second was a 2-on-1, so I'll agree that was a goal you don't automatically expect your goaltender to make.

I'd point your attention to Suter's goal to tie it up at 3-3, with less than 5:00 to go in regulation was an epic fail. Arnott's goal about TEN SECONDS LATER? Even more epic. I remember looking at Babcock's face on the bench when they showed him after that goal. He was looking down the ice directly at Dom as though he wanted to kill him.

In Game 4? You're high as a kite if you think that game had anything whatsoever to do with "unfortunate luck". The Hamhuis goal on the PP about 4-5 minutes in was legit. Legwand's goal, like, THIRTY SECONDS LATER? Terrible goal. Absolutely terrible. When Dats scored on the PP to make it 1-2, and then Dom lets that GARBAGE in by DeVries like TEN SECONDS later? Puhlease. That wasn't "unfortunate luck". Dom looked shell shocked from the time the Preds tied up Game 3, at 2-2. He never got back into the Game.

To say otherwise is ridiculous.

And you say I'm "blind"? Take a look in the mirror, buddy. Did you even watch that Series? Babcock didn't switch to Osgood, permanently, because Dom was a "bit off". He switched because Dom looked like a train wreck.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Outsider

[Ernesto_182 1]

Would it be possible Osgood being traded for someone?? how does that sound?? who would you like for a replacement?? maybe Biron who is likely to be put on free agent??

I mean, it's just a question i am making.. I don't think Ozzy can't stand being a backup of a guy who is 11 years younger and is doing slightly better than him on this two past years

Edited January 7, 2010 by Ernesto_182

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Oh and the whole "he never rode a goalie like this once" thing...maybe that has alot to do with the fact we're lower in the standings than we have been since he got here, and have to play the hot hand.

Or you could just be like Outsider and blindly agree because it helps your argument.

Howard is no longer hot.

And he will not be reliable when the playoffs start. At least not as a rookie.

[Carman 387]

Howard is no longer hot.

And he will not be reliable when the playoffs start. At least not as a rookie.

If giving up 3 goals is a terrible game for Howard sign me up.

And luckily we don't have to worry about the playoffs in the middle of the season.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Oh and the whole "he never rode a goalie like this once" thing...maybe that has alot to do with the fact we're lower in the standings than we have been since he got here, and have to play the hot hand.

Or you could just be like Outsider and blindly agree because it helps your argument.

Name two games in the last month where if the goaltending on our side was better, we could have won, and on both occasions, the culprit in goal was not Osgood. Osgood has not played NEARLY poor enough to warrant being benched so much and if anyone noticed, Howard hasn't been as hot as people are giving him credit for. Has he been good? Hell yes. But we are definitely stretching the definition of a hot goalie at times this season.

The real issues are these:

1) the Wings aren't winning games because of offense, not goaltending, no matter who is in goal.

2) Chris Osgood, like it or not, IS the goaltender we are going to need in the Spring IF this team makes the playoffs. Beyond that, the Wings owe him a degree of respect and a decent split of the starts and he hasn't played terrible so there is no warranting him sitting for 7 games a pop.

3) Given point #1, at this point it has mattered jack squat who is in goal to get us to said playoffs, so arguments saying we are basically riding Howard to the playoffs are invalid.

4) Howard has cooled down considerably from the hot goaltender people are still seeing him as and he has let in a soft goal or two, and even when he is on his game he is losing because no one can put the puck in the net on our side.

Given all of these points, what exactly is the justification for benching a goaltender who has been the best post-season goaltender and lowest maintenance teammate for the past two seasons? If not his failures, or Howard's successes, or the team's "successes" so far, then what? We've lost 5 of the last 8 games, what do we have to lose by cycling in a goaltender who hasn't been given a fair shake and hasn't played nearly bad enough be be a liability?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

If giving up 3 goals is a terrible game for Howard sign me up.

And luckily we don't have to worry about the playoffs in the middle of the season.

Yup, focus only on the statistics despite the fact a 3.00 GAA is pretty bad (I'm aware that isn't Howards GAA) and he did not play well.

And I think this team should be focusing on how to be the best in the playoffs right now, considering every game is a big deal and if Osgood doesn't get the starts he needs, we will be looking at an untested Howard against a high-seeded team.

[Vladifan 680]

So basically continue to tire out a rookie because you don't want to risk putting in a cold goaltender when that same rookie just crapped the bed against the 25th best team in the league.

What?

This says it for me. There's NO way Howard should be or could be expected to be the only one to carry this team to the playoffs and right now, that looks like what Babcock is thinking. It is not logical not to play Ozzie, even now and then. It makes NO sense no matter how you look at it. It is not in the team's best interests not to play Ozzie. Right now, Babcock does not look at all good in this fiasco, no matter what his reasons are. It looks to be a personal vendetta and it is STUPID, shortsigthted, and selfish.