kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 Tim Connolly? Hudler vs. Zherdev? At some point are we going to talk about anybody who A) Actually meets the "top six" qualification that Babcock mentioned. B) Doesn't require that we speculate for days on end whether their extremely marginal professional success is worth the peanuts you apparently want to pay for a free agent. 1 Uncle Danny reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hockey23 79 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 Kindl was -8 in his first 8 NHL games. In his next 40 he was +2. I'm confident Kindl is ready for the NHL. He was also -8 in his last 8 games. I agree he's ready, but I don't think +/- proves anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kerjuxaxaxa 6 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 He was also -8 in his last 8 games. I agree he's ready, but I don't think +/- proves anything. Agree, for instance, Ericsson had +8, second among defenseman after Rafalski, but still a passenger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 Hudler scored 37 points this past season and people considered it a terrible season for him. Three points would have made the difference? Of all of the players in the league, Zherdev is one of the most widely known for having attitude problems stemming from an over-inflated sense of self worth. He's also perfectly willing to sign in the KHL, and hasn't shown too much interest in winning a Cup ahead of getting paid. Connolly has been scoring at just shy of a point per game for years, and made $4.5m the past two seasons. Hard argument for a pay cut on a guy his age, unless you think his injury history should mean pay cut at age 30 when he's still a top line center. I said if you assume Zherdev would score 50-60 points with Flip and Dats, then Hudler could potentially score 80 with a full season alongside Datsyuk. Given Hudler's proven chemistry and history with Dats, I don't think that's as far fetched as you think it might be. I didn't say it made him an elite player. I said he would be significantly more productive than Zherdev in the same situation. That's pretty much common sense, isn't it? Bulls**t. You pretty much gave the perception that 80+ points is a guarantee. You may claim that you didn't say or type that specifcially, but it is still the PERCEPTION you gave off, and people are going to remember the PERCEPTION of your response, so quit backpedaling. It is you, after all, talking about Hudler here. Embelishment and overhype is your standard regarding him. And what's sad is you still are probably going to be completely oblivious to the fact that you are overhyping him, yet again for the umpteenth time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 He was also -8 in his last 8 games. I agree he's ready, but I don't think +/- proves anything. Datsyuk was also -2 in his last three games. Context, and you missed it. Plus, pulling up the last 8 or 9 games of the season is a terrible barometer of someones season for the WIngs seeing as how they were scuffling, hence using the final 40 games of Kindl's season. And yes, +/- does prove things, it's a useful stat. It's not the end all be all stat that some think of it as or the complete worthless stat that other people think it is. 2 Aussie_Wing and 55fan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 Datsyuk was also -2 in his last three games. Context, and you missed it. Plus, pulling up the last 8 or 9 games of the season is a terrible barometer of someones season for the WIngs seeing as how they were scuffling, hence using the final 40 games of Kindl's season. And yes, +/- does prove things, it's a useful stat. It's not the end all be all stat that some think of it as or the complete worthless stat that other people think it is. Agreed, plus/minus matters a lot but it's not a stand alone stat. You need to look at it in conjunction with other stats for it to mean much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hockey23 79 Report post Posted June 14, 2011 Datsyuk was also -2 in his last three games. Context, and you missed it. Plus, pulling up the last 8 or 9 games of the season is a terrible barometer of someones season for the WIngs seeing as how they were scuffling, hence using the final 40 games of Kindl's season. And yes, +/- does prove things, it's a useful stat. It's not the end all be all stat that some think of it as or the complete worthless stat that other people think it is. That's my point. Kindl had the same +/- in his first 8 games and his last 8 games yet, I think we can all agree, he was much better in the last 8 games. I could also say that Ericsson was a -15 in 09/10 and was +8 this year so 10/11 Ericsson>>09/10 Ericsson. But from watching him, Ericsson didn't really improve from last year, and his +/- was aided by Rafalski's offense. I'm just not a fan of the +/- stat and I don't judge players by it. Anyways, I completely agree with your point about Kindl being much improved and ready to play full time, and I wasn't trying to use his +/- in the last 8 games to prove anything other than the problems I have with judging a player based on +/-. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 15, 2011 Agreed, plus/minus matters a lot but it's not a stand alone stat. You need to look at it in conjunction with other stats for it to mean much. I don't think any stat should be the complete focus on a players skill.... Anyone that know hockey, can watch a game and instantly see the kind of skilled player on the ice without looking at goals, assists, points, +/-, etc.... that all looks nice on paper but the truth is, it doesn't matter one bit, especially when it comes to playing for the Wings. You know when Babcock decides who is playing he goes with the guy working the hardest and playing well every time, not who's leading the team in points or +/-... anyway that's my two cents... see how many people have to comment on this one.... Anyway I'm not going to respond to any of the bulls*** anymore, to be quite honest I can't stand a lot of the people on this that think they know everything about everything to do with hockey, I guess that's why I have always just read articles and forums, and not got involved in the discussions... a lot of bulls*** back and forth... a lot of extremely opinionated people that think their logic is the only logic, if they don't agree with you, you're automatically wrong... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 15, 2011 If this Jaromir Jagr rumor is true and the Wings sign him, I'm going to lose my s***. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted June 15, 2011 If this Jaromir Jagr rumor is true and the Wings sign him, I'm going to lose my s***. Fortunately, s*** is one of those things you don't really worry too much about trying to find if you lose it. Unless you're one of those people where things you lose turn up in the damndest places later... then you really don't wanna lose your s***. "Oh, here it is, turns out it was in my pocket the whole time!" 1 55fan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CaliWingsNut Report post Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) Fortunately, s*** is one of those things you don't really worry too much about trying to find if you lose it. Unless you're one of those people where things you lose turn up in the damndest places later... then you really don't wanna lose your s***. "Oh, here it is, turns out it was in my pocket the whole time!" depends on your definition of s***... "Have your ever noticed that their stuff is s*** and your s*** is stuff?" - R.I.P. George Carlin Edited June 15, 2011 by CaliWingsNut Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtydangles 1,328 Report post Posted June 16, 2011 if you were to move fil (not saying we should), possibly in a package, who would you move him for? I suggested moving Franzen a couple times and nobody liked the idea of that... Kenny says he's up for a trade if theres one to be had, i can't see anyone else really being moved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 16, 2011 if you were to move fil (not saying we should), possibly in a package, who would you move him for? I suggested moving Franzen a couple times and nobody liked the idea of that... Kenny says he's up for a trade if theres one to be had, i can't see anyone else really being moved. I don't think Franzen is untouchable. You'd certainly want to get a whole lot for him, but if the trade was right I could see them doing it. I'm not in favor of getting rid of him just to do it, like I am with Jiri, but depending on the return I wouldn't be heartbroken if they moved Franzen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Majsheppard 203 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 Carolina seems to have lost two players. Oh and Franzen being traded would only be a good idea if it was the right return. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 Carolina seems to have lost two players. Oh and Franzen being traded would only be a good idea if it was the right return. That article has a whole lot I like to read. First of all, when saying potential buyouts... Davvid Clarkson. If he gets bought out I could see Kenny going for him because he can play and fight, that is exactly what babcock wants on his team. Because of the buy out he would have some money giong towards him so he would probably be able to be had on the cheaper siide of things. If he is up for trade send Hudler for Clarksonn and a 5th rounder or something, that would help toughen up our third line. Erik Cole and Pitkanen are also having trouble in negotiation with the Canes. Cole is a guy I would like the wings to take a flyer on to add some scoring depth. He put up 50 points last year, hits A LOT, and has top notch speed to add to the top 6. Having a physical presence with speed in the top 6 would help this team out. Adding Pitkanen could help ease the loss of Rafalski. I also didnt mind seeing it noted that Osgood and Drapes might not be back, its time to move on 1 Majsheppard reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtydangles 1,328 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 followup to the response about trading franzen or flip... its already been discussed a bit by a few people, but for the newcomers, would anyone see a trade for Brent Burns happening? maybe with franzen or fil as a part of the deal? People are worried about him not resigning with us when he becomes a UFA at the end of the year, but i don't see many other dmen worth trading for (that are gettable)... id personally risk it, we can promise him a big salary when lids retires and detroit is a great team to play for... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted June 17, 2011 followup to the response about trading franzen or flip... its already been discussed a bit by a few people, but for the newcomers, would anyone see a trade for Brent Burns happening? maybe with franzen or fil as a part of the deal? People are worried about him not resigning with us when he becomes a UFA at the end of the year, but i don't see many other dmen worth trading for (that are gettable)... id personally risk it, we can promise him a big salary when lids retires and detroit is a great team to play for... This has been discussed, and the standard response was "No, no, no." He'd cost an arm and a leg at season's start, and that's not acceptable for a player who could bolt at the end of the season. Even if we offered him a good salary, there would be the possibility that he would bolt anyway. He could also easily turn out to be a poor fit in our system. If we want to trade for the guy, it should be considered at the trade deadline. You'd risk it? Well, that's why you're not part of the management Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtydangles 1,328 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 This has been discussed, and the standard response was "No, no, no." He'd cost an arm and a leg at season's start, and that's not acceptable for a player who could bolt at the end of the season. Even if we offered him a good salary, there would be the possibility that he would bolt anyway. He could also easily turn out to be a poor fit in our system. If we want to trade for the guy, it should be considered at the trade deadline. You'd risk it? Well, that's why you're not part of the management not willing to take risks? that's why you're not part of the management two way street on that one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CaliWingsNut Report post Posted June 17, 2011 Carolina seems to have lost two players. Oh and Franzen being traded would only be a good idea if it was the right return. The very bottom of that article is very interesting.... J.MacDonald not back because he wants a 1way contract and Holland only offering 2-way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted June 17, 2011 not willing to take absolutely insensible risks? I fixed that one for you. Giving up lots of assets for Burns would be a ludicrously imprudent move. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 followup to the response about trading franzen or flip... its already been discussed a bit by a few people, but for the newcomers, would anyone see a trade for Brent Burns happening? maybe with franzen or fil as a part of the deal? People are worried about him not resigning with us when he becomes a UFA at the end of the year, but i don't see many other dmen worth trading for (that are gettable)... id personally risk it, we can promise him a big salary when lids retires and detroit is a great team to play for... With Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the twilight of their prime, it doesn't make sense trading away Filppula who is going to be hitting his prime shortly. You'll need Filppula in his prime and Z and D are out of theirs. Trading Franzen is the more logical choice, but I'd sell Hudler for a hotdog first. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red Wings Addict 787 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 With Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the twilight of their prime, it doesn't make sense trading away Filppula who is going to be hitting his prime shortly. You'll need Filppula in his prime and Z and D are out of theirs. Trading Franzen is the more logical choice, but I'd sell Hudler for a hotdog first. When Pav and Z hit their twilight I think we'll see Jarnkrok coming into his own. I can already see the LGW.com t-shirt with an iron hook and whatever jersey number he'll have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 When Pav and Z hit their twilight I think we'll see Jarnkrok coming into his own. I can already see the LGW.com t-shirt with an iron hook and whatever jersey number he'll have. Hopefully Jarnkrok and Pulu and Sheahan will all be hitting their stride when Z and D are past their primes (3-4) years from now, but Filppula will be in full swing of his prime and we need those player, we can't rely on 22-24 year olds to carry the team. Jay harrison just got re-upped for two more years with Carolina . 1.4mil over two years. i wish he would have hit the FA market so he could replace Ericsson and Salei at half their cost with twice their abilities! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtydangles 1,328 Report post Posted June 17, 2011 Hopefully Jarnkrok and Pulu and Sheahan will all be hitting their stride when Z and D are past their primes (3-4) years from now, but Filppula will be in full swing of his prime and we need those player, we can't rely on 22-24 year olds to carry the team. Jay harrison just got re-upped for two more years with Carolina . 1.4mil over two years. i wish he would have hit the FA market so he could replace Ericsson and Salei at half their cost with twice their abilities! not too mention helm and abby will be tearing it up in 3-4 years. helm already kinda is.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted June 17, 2011 not too mention helm and abby will be tearing it up in 3-4 years. helm already kinda is.... I see no indication that Abdelkader will pitch in anything more than 10-15 goals per year, 20 at most. Helm may hit 20-25 if his shot improves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
