Smith to be on Wings next season?

[Konnan511 1,736]

I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but he needs another year in Grand Rapids. He might be NHL-ready if you're talking about the Oilers or Islanders, but last I saw - he was pretty far from where he needs to be in order to wear red and white on days that aren't Friday.

He's not that far off. He's already there offensively and he plays an average defensive game. I think a few months down on the farm and he'd be ready full time.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

They WANT him to make the team out of camp. But if he comes to camp and it's apparent he doesn't have the chops to earn minutes I doubt they'll keep him up to sit in the press box.

This isn't a Kindl situation where a blue-chip prospect flounders a bit in the AHL, is forced to take a spot on the team due to waiver status and can't manage to crack the top 6. Kindl looked as promising coming out of the OHL as Smith did coming out of College. The problem was that Kindl never significantly progressed each year in the AHL the way the Wings hoped he would.

Smith still has 2 years of AHL eligibility left if the Wings need to fall back on that. Smith's going to be a good PP QB and offensive player. All he needs to do is shore up his defensive game (pretty much the most common complaint for any young defenseman).

The bigger question right now is Tatar. He had an excellent sophomore season in the AHL. This coming season will be his last in the AHL so the Wings will give him every chance to make the team out of camp or at least will count on him for call-ups. Based on his play during the nine game call-up he had this season it looks like he's close. Hopefully he'll continue to get stronger this summer just like he did last summer.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

He's not that far off. He's already there offensively and he plays an average defensive game. I think a few months down on the farm and he'd be ready full time.

I can already see it turning into another Ericsson type thing though. Although Ericsson has been garbage toward the tail end of the season, if Smith is not this anointed next great dman we have all held him up to be, we have ourselves a brand new whipping boy, no doubt. I have all the hopes in the world for him.

[hooon 1,089]

The bigger question right now is Tatar. He had an excellent sophomore season in the AHL. This coming season will be his last in the AHL so the Wings will give him every chance to make the team out of camp or at least will count on him for call-ups. Based on his play during the nine game call-up he had this season it looks like he's close. Hopefully he'll continue to get stronger this summer just like he did last summer.

Jeez Tatar played 9 games with the Wings this season? That is way more than I seem to recall. Our injuries be damned! I remember being happy with his play even though he didn't play many minutes. He had a few good chances offensively, and I'm sure he'll bury more goals once he settles down a bit.

I just want him to bulk up some more, he looked pretty small out there.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

I just want him to bulk up some more, he looked pretty small out there.

freep

Tatar (5-feet-11, 176 pounds) said there was a big difference in how strong he is now compared to his rookie season.

"Before, I did almost about 95 (kilos), and now I did almost 120," Tatar said. "I have no idea how many pounds that is."

The 95 kilograms Tatar benched last season is equal to 209.2 pounds, and 120 is equal to 264.5 pounds.

Tatar said he would take two weeks off before beginning off-season workouts.

Edited May 26, 2011 by HankthaTank

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I will say this much-- Ericsson was very good defensively in the AHL and he caused people to weep tears of blood on these forums over the last two seasons. The transition from AHL to NHL is very, very difficult for defensemen (less so from an offensive standpoint than from a purely defensive standpoint). For Ericsson the biggest challenge was confidence-- he was strong defensively when he didn't think too much and just made that first pass but once doubt crept into his mind (in his rookie season) it all went to hell quickly.

Much like Ericsson in his 08 call-up and during the 09 playoffs, people were very happy with Kindl's defensive play in his limited minutes this season. While Kindl played much more limited minutes than Ericsson did in those cases that's primarily because of the injury situations in those respective cases. The biggest difference in those cases was how much Ericsson's offensive skills were shown off that season (prior to his rookie season). Kindl's rookie season this year was very, very quiet from an offensive perspective despite the fact that he's very offensively skilled. Part of that's probably playing time but it's hard to explain given that he got some decent PP time in.

My point is that people seem to be very happy with Kindl's play this past season but we should remember that he was playing in a limited role and was trying to earn a roster spot. If he enters this season with a guaranteed top 6 spot I expect the road to be rougher for him (in the short term at least). Kindl's still pretty raw but his toolbox is excellent (size, skill, skating).

So let's look at the defense right now assuming Lidstrom re-signs.

Lidstrom

Kronwall

Stuart

Kindl

As far as continuity is concerned you can't really count Kindl as a 'known' because of his limited experience. So we're looking at a massive transition for the Wings' defense-- only 50% of the core defense would remain. Once Lidstrom retires you'd be looking at only 2 of the 6 players who were with the team in the back to back finals years. That's a huge change in personnel which is uncharacteristic for a Ken Holland team.

Based on that fact I think the Wings will retain Ericsson as long as he doesn't expect 3mil+ (which he won't get from Holland). Once Rafalski retired the odds of retaining Ericsson jumped based on Holland's desire to maintain a level of continuity. Babcock is also a big fan of Ericsson's size and strength (a rare commodity in the Wings' system).

So what could the D look like going into free agency?

Lidstrom-?

Kronwall-Stuart

Ericsson-?

Kindl

The Wings will want to keep Kindl with a veteran and also give him access to Lidstrom while he's still around. If Smith makes the team, and Holland doesn't bring an external top 4 defenseman into the mix, I wouldn't be shocked to see the pairings broken up like this:

Lidstrom-Kindl/Smith

Kronwall-Smith/Kindl

Ericsson-Stuart

*Noting that the mins would be broken up very evenly between the pairings (just like they were this season)

Ericsson needs a guy like Stuart to be the responsible, reliable guy. I see that as a protecting the asset sort of thing.

Putting Kronwall with Smith/Kindl is risky because the Wings will want to let Kronwall continue to be an aggressive roamer (it works damn well). Can Kindl or Smith be the responsible guy who hangs back in those situations? I don't really feel comfortable with that to be honest.

This arrangement is almost solely devised to give Kindl and Smith as much time with Lidstrom as possible. That doesn't seem like a bright way to run a winning hockey team but it's a smart long term investment if the Wings believe it will be Lidstrom's last season.

A more conservative arrangement would be:

Lidstrom-Kronwall

Stuart-(outside veteran with high-end offensive potential and decent youth, for example-- Pitkanen)

Ericsson-Kindl/Smith

The last pairing is taking a big leap for the sake of keeping the top 4 as solid as possible. The problem there is that it would represent a top heavy split of playing time. More balance means less even strength ice time for Lidstrom and less regular season wear on him.

Man this is a really long speculative post. I wonder if anyone read the whole thing...

[dteowner 20]

Since we're playing the speculation game...

I'm going to throw out there that Lids gets bumped to the second pairing. Primarily to reduce his ice time so we don't wear him out, but also to allow him to pair up with a younger guy without that guy having to face top-pairing competition. I'm going to bet that Big Rig gets brought back, which makes me want to chew holes in the couch, but what can ya do...

Kronner - Stu

Lids - Ericsson (Lids covers for E's lapses, E gets much-needed confidence from being elevated beyond his abilities by the Lidstrom Effect)

Kindl - "Salei" (probably not Salei himself, but a similar guy--$1M/yr defensive dman)

Janik (it would be completely out of character for Smith to be brought up and locked in the pressbox while there's still some questions about his ability to play NHL defense and he still has eligibility in the AHL where he'd get 30mins a night in all situations)

As situations merit, Ericsson and Kindl switch spots, giving Kindl time with Lids and Ericsson time to be the offensive/risk-taker half of a pairing. Or, if Holland plucks a better quality FA from the shallow pool, it makes more sense to balance ice time like we did this year by dropping Ericsson with that new guy and putting Kindl with Lids full time--kinda a 2A/2B pairing arrangement.

Edited May 26, 2011 by dteowner

[Guest Heaten]

The Wings only have Kronwall, Stuart, and Kindl signed for next season from this year's team.

Assuming Lidstrom comes back, we have a hole in our top four from Raffi, and questions about Ericsson and Salei. Ericsson seems to want way more than he's worth, and Salei was losing his spot to Kindl at the end of the year.

So the Wings go out and sign a guy like Ehrhoff/Pitkanen/Wisniewski/Bieksa to replace Rafalski. Kindl moves into the top six. Now we have to add one more defenseman to the top six-probably a stay-at-home type, and add a spare. I don't think either of those guys will be Smith. Smith comes in the year after when he has no more waiver options, and the team either lets the new stay at home guy go or lets Stuart go.

Only one player on your list might be logical. The others are going to get extremely (and I mean EXTREMELY) overpaid in the offseason. Holland isn't going to overpay anyone. And Bieska and Ehrhoff aren't that impressive to me (overrated because they are in the SCFs). I like Wiz because he's physical, can put up points, right shot... and he's a local boy.

He's not that far off. He's already there offensively and he plays an average defensive game. I think a few months down on the farm and he'd be ready full time.

Disagree. I've been to some Griffins games and Smith isn't even average. He's below average and, at times, a liability. TBH, I don't know what DRW scouts see in him when they drafted him (compared to other 1st round picks). I don't think he'll ever be, at his peak, as good as Kronwall is now. I've been pretty good at judging talent, but I hope I am wrong about Smith.

[Datsyerberger 279]

I think that in an ideal situation, Holland gets what he wants for the team (#3/4, #5 and backup d-men; Kindl ideal #6) via free agency or existing players (such as Salei as backup, Ericsson as backup or #5). Smith spends another year in GR as the #1 guy and gets to develop more.

However, if Holland cannot fill holes to what he feels is an adequate extent, I think he'll look into bringing Smith up for the #4/5 roles, get him some playing time with Nick and the like. Such would seem to be the more acceptable option with a player of such high potential than trying to force some #6 guys into a #4 or 5 role, especially an offensive one since our only currently signed offensive d-men are Nick, Nik, and maybe Kindl (Stuart can complement an offensive d-man but isn't a guy you want running your PP).

[WorkingOvertime 536]

IMO Smith will only be up if E is not re-signed. This might be a good thing long-term if Lids decides to retire after next season.

[Travis 576]

Disagree. I've been to some Griffins games and Smith isn't even average. He's below average and, at times, a liability. TBH, I don't know what DRW scouts see in him when they drafted him (compared to other 1st round picks). I don't think he'll ever be, at his peak, as good as Kronwall is now. I've been pretty good at judging talent, but I hope I am wrong about Smith.

Well he was named to the AHL All Star team and made the All-Rookie team, so it's not like he's a bum. You're right about his defensive liability at this point, though. I went to quite a few Griffins games this year and it was obvious then that he wouldn't even be a true Black Ace. He needs work in all areas, some more than others - but he also needs to curtail the unnecessary penalties. Obviously, he's had all Summer and he could have a great camp; but he was not Red Wings ready last season, simple as that.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

And I wouldn't give Ehrhoff a fat contract this offseason. It'd be too inflated by his playoff performance right now. His track record aside from that isn't as glamorous. I'm not a big fan of investing large sums in unproven commodities (at least in a cap world).

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Would Kenny really get Smith in as Lids partner?

Nic was only a 21 yr old when he made his NHL debut a 3rd round steal maybe but no one thought he would be as good

as he has been. A skinny 6'2" D man thrown in at the deep end,80 games and 60 points later and hey, we got ourselfs

something here guys. 20 years later and a HOF lock in, possably the greatest D to have worn the winged wheel, well

im not saying Smith is going to be as great, but who better to learn the defensive aspects of the game at NHL level

trhan the master. Smith's offensive abilities are there for all to see, his skating is great which makes him a level

above Kindl, Kindl is good but Smith is alot better. If Kenny does bring in a 3/4 D man, id still go with having

Smith in as 6/7 and split the year with Kindl, see who earns the 6th spot.

Kronwall Stuart

Lidstrom Smith

Ericsson UFA

Kindl

looks ok to me, sometimes we have a prospect that doesnt need the extra time in GR, Smith is it and next year itll be Nyquist.

[newfy 695]

Meh, how much has leaving these defenseman in GR really helped them in the NHL? Ericcson sucked, Kindl sucked.. Why not bring up Smith and instead of him adjusting his play based on AHL players, let him go against some real players.

He might look bad for a year but than he is still adjusting to the NHL game at least. He is a very high end prospect, he could get some big PP time while learning the game defensively.

There isnt a good track record for the wings developing defenseman in GR. Kronwall was hardly there, Ficsher wasnt there.

Kindl and Ericcson both did not seem prepared at all for the NHL game when they got here. Smith should get time to play with a top 3 defenseman all time and learn his game

[Dimaline312000 51]

Ok but what if Lids does Retire?? I think bringing Smith up next season would be a great idea regardless of Liddy staying or not. Need to start thinking Youth and Smith is a strong player who definetly needs to improve in a few skills but I think he would be good. The only thing I wonder is wasn't this is first season in the AHL would they bring him up that quick? Oh well only time will tell.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Meh, how much has leaving these defenseman in GR really helped them in the NHL? Ericcson sucked, Kindl sucked.. Why not bring up Smith and instead of him adjusting his play based on AHL players, let him go against some real players.

He might look bad for a year but than he is still adjusting to the NHL game at least. He is a very high end prospect, he could get some big PP time while learning the game defensively.

There isnt a good track record for the wings developing defenseman in GR. Kronwall was hardly there, Ficsher wasnt there.

Kindl and Ericcson both did not seem prepared at all for the NHL game when they got here. Smith should get time to play with a top 3 defenseman all time and learn his game

The Wings got a 6'5 defenseman who averages 18:50 of ice time a night and ended up with 15pts and a +8... all for the last overall pick of the draft.

He needed that time in GR. And guess what? In his first year in the NHL he played on the top pairing with Lidstrom in the Stanley Cup FINALS. Only one person scored in game 7 of the Finals. Guess who it was? Sure seems like Grand Rapids may have helped prepare Ericsson for the NHL. But to you he's a crappy player because he isn't an All Star.

By the way-- Kronwall played 102 games with the Griffins. Somehow I doubt that those games didn't contribute to his development.

You are right on one point-- Fischer didn't play in Grand Rapids. He played 25 games over two seasons for another AHL team-- the Cincinnati Mighty Ducks. The Griffins were still a part of the IHL at that time.

There's a reason why Kindl and Smith played in the AHL-- they weren't good enough in camp to force Holland to play them in the NHL. If a Doughty walks into camp and blows the team's socks off Holland isn't going to send him to the AHL. You make it sound like Ken Holland ties a 200lb anchor around the necks of these players. I'll tell you one thing-- playing 21mins a night in Grand Rapids as their #1 defenseman beats the hell out of being Derek Meech in the press box.

[newfy 695]

The Wings got a 6'5 defenseman who averages 18:50 of ice time a night and ended up with 15pts and a +8... all for the last overall pick of the draft.

He needed that time in GR. And guess what? In his first year in the NHL he played on the top pairing with Lidstrom in the Stanley Cup FINALS. Only one person scored in game 7 of the Finals. Guess who it was? Sure seems like Grand Rapids may have helped prepare Ericsson for the NHL. But to you he's a crappy player because he isn't an All Star.

By the way-- Kronwall played 102 games with the Griffins. Somehow I doubt that those games didn't contribute to his development.

You are right on one point-- Fischer didn't play in Grand Rapids. He played 25 games over two seasons for another AHL team-- the Cincinnati Mighty Ducks. The Griffins were still a part of the IHL at that time.

There's a reason why Kindl and Smith played in the AHL-- they weren't good enough in camp to force Holland to play them in the NHL. If a Doughty walks into camp and blows the team's socks off Holland isn't going to send him to the AHL. You make it sound like Ken Holland ties a 200lb anchor around the necks of these players. I'll tell you one thing-- playing 21mins a night in Grand Rapids as their #1 defenseman beats the hell out of being Derek Meech in the press box.

The wings got a 6'5 defenseman who plays like he is 6 feet except for one fight every 40 games or so, I was saying that Ericcson looked like a potential norris candidate in his future with the way he played in the ahl (thats from bob mackenzie), and all of a sudden he comes to the NHL and has to readjust his game completely. What was the use in those extra years in the AHL when now he ould be adjusted to the NHL better if he came up a year earlier?

Kronwall split his first North American season between the AHL and NHL and played his second during the NHL lockout with the griffins, I like how you leave that out to try to make a point. He was playing in the NHL from the get go and was getting experience, even if he didnt stick the whole season, he was getting significant time and experience.

Fish played 52 games in the NHL in his first season and 7 in the AHL, than played 55 in the NHL his second year with 18 in the AHL. Once again, Fischer was an NHLer from the get go, racking up experience and adjusting to the pro game, not to the minors than having to adjust all over again. Any attempt at trying to make it sound like Kronwall or Fish weren't NHLers from the start is dumb

I'm not saying keep Smith in the pressbox, get him into 40 games or so and send him to the minors if you need to after a while if he isnt ready. Not being ready doesnt mean he cant get experience playing against Edmonton, Florida etc

[Drake_Marcus 890]

The wings got a 6'5 defenseman who plays like he is 6 feet except for one fight every 40 games or so, I was saying that Ericcson looked like a potential norris candidate in his future with the way he played in the ahl (thats from bob mackenzie), and all of a sudden he comes to the NHL and has to readjust his game completely. What was the use in those extra years in the AHL when now he ould be adjusted to the NHL better if he came up a year earlier?

Kronwall split his first North American season between the AHL and NHL and played his second during the NHL lockout with the griffins, I like how you leave that out to try to make a point. He was playing in the NHL from the get go and was getting experience, even if he didnt stick the whole season, he was getting significant time and experience.

Fish played 52 games in the NHL in his first season and 7 in the AHL, than played 55 in the NHL his second year with 18 in the AHL. Once again, Fischer was an NHLer from the get go, racking up experience and adjusting to the pro game, not to the minors than having to adjust all over again. Any attempt at trying to make it sound like Kronwall or Fish weren't NHLers from the start is dumb

I'm not saying keep Smith in the pressbox, get him into 40 games or so and send him to the minors if you need to after a while if he isnt ready. Not being ready doesnt mean he cant get experience playing against Edmonton, Florida etc

McKenzie was talking about Ericsson's play in that playoff series when he said that. I doubt he watches a lot of GR games.

I don't see how Kronwall's season in the AHL during the lockout doesn't count towards his development. You claimed that the Griffs didn't correctly prepare the Wings' defensemen and my rebuttal was that Kronwall spent a great deal of time in GR. How does the exact years he spent there matter again? He could have easily gone back to Sweden and played with one of his past pro clubs there but he stayed in GR. Why do you think that was? I'd say it's more likely that Holland asked him to stay there than anything else. Or maybe he didn't want to return and play in front of his family in Sweden...

We both read the stat lines-- I know Fischer made the Wings out of camp. Hell, everyone knows that because he was the first 19 year old defenseman to do that in quite some time. But how the hell does that negate my point?

The AHL has a purpose and Holland uses it more than most GMs. But then again he's also got more post-season victories than most GMs so maybe he's half competent?

[LeftWinger 4,963]

The Wings only have Kronwall, Stuart, and Kindl signed for next season from this year's team.

Assuming Lidstrom comes back, we have a hole in our top four from Raffi, and questions about Ericsson and Salei. Ericsson seems to want way more than he's worth, and Salei was losing his spot to Kindl at the end of the year.

So the Wings go out and sign a guy like Ehrhoff/Pitkanen/Wisniewski/Bieksa to replace Rafalski. Kindl moves into the top six. Now we have to add one more defenseman to the top six-probably a stay-at-home type, and add a spare. I don't think either of those guys will be Smith. Smith comes in the year after when he has no more waiver options, and the team either lets the new stay at home guy go or lets Stuart go.

I think you despise Stuart as much as I do Hudler... But I agree with everything you have said prior to that...

Add Wiz and another depth guy or trade or bigger name and sign wiz for the third paring with Kindl. Not sure what to do about the 7th spot if Smith is gonna stay in GRR and just see spot call-ups, maybe utilize Janik or re-sign Meech (although I think I read he was done with Detroit, wants a NHL full-time job or something...what kind of crap is that? Where does he get off wanting a NHL job!?!? )

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I think you despise Stuart as much as I do Hudler... But I agree with everything you have said prior to that...

Add Wiz and another depth guy or trade or bigger name and sign wiz for the third paring with Kindl. Not sure what to do about the 7th spot if Smith is gonna stay in GRR and just see spot call-ups, maybe utilize Janik or re-sign Meech (although I think I read he was done with Detroit, wants a NHL full-time job or something...what kind of crap is that? Where does he get off wanting a NHL job!?!? )

Meech will likely go to Europe. He's passed through waivers multiple times with no interest. Holland even told him he'd try to find him an NHL home at the start of last season and... well we know what happened there. My best guess is that he'll try and get as much as he can in Europe now while he can still play. That being said-- I hope he finds an NHL home or at the very least he finds a good pay cheque so he can provide for his family doing what he loves for as long as possible.

[eva unit zero 271]

Meech will likely go to Europe. He's passed through waivers multiple times with no interest. Holland even told him he'd try to find him an NHL home at the start of last season and... well we know what happened there. My best guess is that he'll try and get as much as he can in Europe now while he can still play. That being said-- I hope he finds an NHL home or at the very least he finds a good pay cheque so he can provide for his family doing what he loves for as long as possible.

Toronto will sign Meech and play him with Phaneuf. Bring back some memories.

[redwingfan19 293]

Chelios on Smith:

"At points of the season in the American League there was no one better on the ice," Chelios said. "Him and Derek Meech were a step above everybody. But then you look at Brendan some games and he looks his age and plays his age. Detroit's known for bringing guys along slowly to the Wings. Can he play in the NHL? I think he's got all the tools and skills.

"It's just a matter of now with this spot opening up with Rafi, depending on who they try and replace him with, he might get the opportunity now. It's a big hole to fill. Eventually I think they're looking at a guy like Brendan Smith. He's a power play, penalty kill guy, a 25-minute-a-game guy. So maybe this might wake him up a little bit this summer, he'll work a little harder."

Starting to sound more and more like Smith is going to have every chance to make this team out of camp. The PK part surprised me. I admit, the only time I watch Griffins games is when they play the Marlies because it is on Leafs TV, but is his defense better than he is given credit for?

http://www.foxsportsdetroit.com/05/26/11/Smith-may-be-next-ex-Badger-to-contribut/landing_redwings.html?blockID=528880&feedID=3701

[newfy 695]

Chelios on Smith:

Starting to sound more and more like Smith is going to have every chance to make this team out of camp. The PK part surprised me. I admit, the only time I watch Griffins games is when they play the Marlies because it is on Leafs TV, but is his defense better than he is given credit for?

http://www.foxsportsdetroit.com/05/26/11/Smith-may-be-next-ex-Badger-to-contribut/landing_redwings.html?blockID=528880&feedID=3701

Not strong defensively is a knock on most young defensive prospects, that term loves to get thrown around. Fact of the matter is, lots of guys aren't amazing defensively and everyone makes mistakes so it isnt as bad as it seems. Kindl didnt look awful this year when he played and Smith has looked better than Kindl did in Grand Rapids.

I would say Smith is at a point wher ehe could make the jump, play 16 minutes a night and it would help him more, playing against the big boys. Hes physically big and strong enough, and he will probably be on our PP from the get go, the defense will come along eventually

[VM1138 1,921]

Honestly, I want him to make the jump. I have faith in Holland's strategy, and I'm not necessarily against over-ripening, but once in a while it's good to throw a player in the fire and see if he survives, so to speak. Smith has all the talent in the world, and he could really benefit from a year with Lidstrom, even playing limited minutes. He can always get used to big minutes as he develops over the years in the NHL. If Smith is as good as we're all hoping, he'll only be better for the bumps and mistakes he makes in the NHL level. And if he tanks, well, there's always the AHL for a conditioning year, right?

Once in a while it's good to take a chance. I'd like to have a potential superstar for his whole career instead of just the last 10 years of his career for once.

And honestly, if he impresses, why not just let him start the season and send him down when he's not needed? That way he doesn't just sit on the bench all season, but he doesn't have to wait until March to get in one or two games, either. I'm sure Holland could leave a little gap in the cap space to allow for this.

Edited May 30, 2011 by VM1138

[Guest Heaten]

I don't see him making the roster. And I certainly don't see the point to play musical chairs with him. If he comes up, it'd be dumb to keep bumping back down to Grand Rapids for more "conditioning stints". Everyone knows Holland doesn't play that.

Holland will find vet(s) to fill holes. Smith will spend another year in GR and will fill in for injuries, and be a black ace in the PO. Nothing more, nothing less. I watched him in Grand Rapids and he's at the very best another year away from making the big league.