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#61 NvrFrgtRussian5

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 05:11 PM

The problem is martyr, it's not Red Wings sponsored by the Devos family. It is Amway; a crooked company that has came under scrutiny by our government and has broken peoples lives based on false promises and ripping people off in cult like fashion.

The Devos family does great things for the state of Michigan but the Amway company does not deserve to be our sponsor plain and simple.

#62 55fan

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 05:43 PM

The problem is martyr, it's not Red Wings sponsored by the Devos family. It is Amway; a crooked company that has came under scrutiny by our government and has broken peoples lives based on false promises and ripping people off in cult like fashion.

The Devos family does great things for the state of Michigan but the Amway company does not deserve to be our sponsor plain and simple.

Well stated.

If they want to support charities with their money, more power to them. Some are ones I don't support; some are ones I do. Some are ones I've never heard of.

Either way, it's their money.

The company, on the other hand, uses high-pressure tactics and breaks its people down to get money from them.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, let me tell you about a conversation between my former roommate and her mother, who was generally a very normal person.

I had asked her about the "system" she was following. I knew it was making her miserable and costing her money that she didn't have. She got upset (and she's usually calm and level-headed) and said she wasn't allowed to talk about it. Only her father and brother-in-law could.

So her father and mother came over- dad in a suit and tie, mom in a dress, and my roommate changed into a nice blouse and skirt. She had been cleaning all day. I felt underdressed, but I sat through the meeting. I was scared away by the pressure, but said I'd think about it because her dad just wouldn't take no for an answer.

Then her mother took her upstairs and ripped her a new ******* because she had ruined everything by not following the system. Their family would be in financial ruin because of her because she didn't follow the system. Her sister, who was her parents' sponsor would be angry with the parents for not getting me on board, and it was her fault for not following the system.

My roommate was crying and asking what she did wrong. Her mother was upset because she had worn a blouse and skirt, but the program called for a dress. The whole thing was her fault.

Later I tried to tell her that I had figured out why the system wouldn't work mathematically (which is the same reason a pyramid scheme wouldn't) and she told me I was not allowed to talk about anything from the meeting to her or anyone else or it would ruin her system and she would not be successful, nor would her family.

These were normal people, but they had been completely brainwashed.

When I hear Amway, I get a knot in my stomach and I get so angry I could just scream, even though this was almost 20 years ago.

This is why I don't want the Wings associated with them, especially not as a presenting sponsor.
As a regular sponsor, you just have your name on the boards or in the program or something. This is a full-blown commitment. The public statement said that the two have similar values (or goals, or whatever), which ties them together in ways I am not comfortable with.

Obviously I'm not going to renounce my fanship, but I am just not comfortable with this arrangement at all.

#63 martyrme19

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 05:44 PM

I get what you're saying, but the premise of which you are labelling the company crooked is wrong.

And the company was started in Ada Michigan by Devos and Van Andel - so they are the two head representatives. Just like Illitch is the head rep for Little Caesars. Two HUGE michigan based companies that are gigantic philanthropists back to the State.

All I'm saying is - considering how much these individuals network circles cross, this sponsorship makes a ton of sense. People just need to relax.
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#64 Konnan511

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 05:52 PM

The problem is martyr, it's not Red Wings sponsored by the Devos family. It is Amway; a crooked company that has came under scrutiny by our government and has broken peoples lives based on false promises and ripping people off in cult like fashion.

The Devos family does great things for the state of Michigan but the Amway company does not deserve to be our sponsor plain and simple.


It's called Samway for a reason. It sucks people have been ripped off by them, but do your research. I had a "friend" that tried to get me to invest in Scamway, but the two or three brain cells I have said don't do it. It's not Scamways fault that people are idiots and lose their money.

As for them being our sponsor, I have no feelings one way or another. The Wings need money to spend money and Scamway is offering a lot of money.
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#65 NvrFrgtRussian5

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 05:59 PM

It's called Samway for a reason. It sucks people have been ripped off by them, but do your research. I had a "friend" that tried to get me to invest in Scamway, but the two or three brain cells I have said don't do it. It's not Scamways fault that people are idiots and lose their money.

As for them being our sponsor, I have no feelings one way or another. The Wings need money to spend money and Scamway is offering a lot of money.



If someone scammed you into killing someone it doesn't make it any less wrong if you didn't have the brain capacity to say no and walk away. Same principle; they are praying on the weak. Does that make it alright? f*** no.

The official vitamin of the DRW? So now we get to see the likes of Datsyuk or Zetta pushing commercials for pills? Hopefully they set up some helpful informational kiosks inside Joe Louis trying to recruit new members to their scheme. Only $20 to hear the first five minutes about how some schmo bought a yacht!

Edited by NvrFrgtRussian5, 04 September 2011 - 06:07 PM.


#66 martyrme19

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 06:00 PM

Well stated.

If they want to support charities with their money, more power to them. Some are ones I don't support; some are ones I do. Some are ones I've never heard of.

Either way, it's their money.

The company, on the other hand, uses high-pressure tactics and breaks its people down to get money from them.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, let me tell you about a conversation between my former roommate and her mother, who was generally a very normal person.

I had asked her about the "system" she was following. I knew it was making her miserable and costing her money that she didn't have. She got upset (and she's usually calm and level-headed) and said she wasn't allowed to talk about it. Only her father and brother-in-law could.

So her father and mother came over- dad in a suit and tie, mom in a dress, and my roommate changed into a nice blouse and skirt. She had been cleaning all day. I felt underdressed, but I sat through the meeting. I was scared away by the pressure, but said I'd think about it because her dad just wouldn't take no for an answer.

Then her mother took her upstairs and ripped her a new ******* because she had ruined everything by not following the system. Their family would be in financial ruin because of her because she didn't follow the system. Her sister, who was her parents' sponsor would be angry with the parents for not getting me on board, and it was her fault for not following the system.

My roommate was crying and asking what she did wrong. Her mother was upset because she had worn a blouse and skirt, but the program called for a dress. The whole thing was her fault.

Later I tried to tell her that I had figured out why the system wouldn't work mathematically (which is the same reason a pyramid scheme wouldn't) and she told me I was not allowed to talk about anything from the meeting to her or anyone else or it would ruin her system and she would not be successful, nor would her family.

These were normal people, but they had been completely brainwashed.

When I hear Amway, I get a knot in my stomach and I get so angry I could just scream, even though this was almost 20 years ago.

This is why I don't want the Wings associated with them, especially not as a presenting sponsor.
As a regular sponsor, you just have your name on the boards or in the program or something. This is a full-blown commitment. The public statement said that the two have similar values (or goals, or whatever), which ties them together in ways I am not comfortable with.

Obviously I'm not going to renounce my fanship, but I am just not comfortable with this arrangement at all.



I know multiple people that do Amway. Some have made a ton of money, some havent. I also know people that have gone through info meetings, such as myself.

Lets make one thing clear - your friends and her family are nut jobs. NOT the company. The company didn't yell at her for not wearing a dress. (I know there is no company rule about this, it was probably a personal rule laid out by the crazy family).

I would LOVE to see how you are so uniquely smart that you of all people were able to mathematically solve how this multi-billion dollar company has actually made no money for people. Because apparently, they were able to dupe EVERYONE ELSE in this world to help generate billions and billions of dollars. Have you submitted your mathematical equation to the newspapers? You too could be rich!

As I've said, I've been to the meetings multiple times and I agree - they aren't for me. But to say Amway is crooked because some INDEPENDENT proprietors do their job a little more high pressure than others makes you equally as nutty.

Sales is high pressure. I don't care if you're selling Amway, Cutco knives, cars, electronics or magazine subscriptions. In order to survive, you can't just walk away every time you hear the word no. Sorry if you're too weak to stick to your guns just because someone is persistent. Again, that's just sales. It isn't illegal nor should it be. We all have choices to make.
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#67 sleepwalker

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 07:26 PM

Martyr...You seem to honestly beleive in Amway an support it 100%. Your choice, obviously.

BUT, that fact that you are literally the only person on this entire thread that feels that way has to tell you something. Every single person that has posted about this topic here is 100% against Amway sponsoring the Wings, and as pointed out multiple times, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Wings having corporate sponsership, but the fact that they chose Amway.

Amway is a scam pyramid sceme. That is an undisputed FACT. They are predatory scumbags. FACT.

The fact that they are now aligned with the most respected team in the NHL, if not one of the most respected teams in all professional sports, quite literally disgusts most of us to our very core. This is like making a deal with the devil...quite literally.

My Escobar analogy earlier in the thread that you hated and took offense to so much was 100% accurate, regardless of how you personally feel about it.

Its a deal with the devil. And the fact the the Wings are not even close to being in financial trouble makes it all the worse. This is Tom, money hungry scumbag f***, Wilsons baby. Almost all Detroit Red Wings fans absolutely HATE him for making this deal.

Edited by sleepwalker, 04 September 2011 - 07:32 PM.


#68 Kira

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:33 PM

My housemate is a die hard Bruins fan, and even she said this deal is an absolute suck job. She knows it's all Tom Wilson, and he deserves to rot in hell. He sold us down the river, and it's just sickening. We're not in need of money, so why did he sell his soul to these devils? I love my guys, but we've been sold down the river.

Can we formally protest this to someone in the higher ups?
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#69 gcom007

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:37 PM

I am genuinely shocked that someone can defend this company and not be a part of it. The only times I have ever encountered it in the past is when one has someone in their life deeply involved in Amway that they can't bring themselves to criticize or when it's a former-Amwayer trying to justify their wasted time and money. Otherwise, it seems next to impossible to defend Amway.

I just do not understand at all how we can somehow justify Amway's sleazy business because the Devos family is charitable and from Michigan. I just don't care, because I know how they made their money!

And I don't care that they're not a pyramid scheme. Pyramid scheme. Multi-level marketing. All the same when it comes to what Amway does to people's lives. They were "bodysnatchers" when they were based on a pyramid scheme and they're "bodysnatchers" now that they're based on multi-level marketing.

I personally do not want to constantly be reminded of the many close friends that have had their lives devastated on so many levels by the disgusting cult of Amway while I watch the team I've loved since I can remember with the little bit of free time I have. Amway is literally one of the only words in this world that just instantly incites anger in me upon hearing the name.

I'm not trying to single anyone out here or be critical, but I don't think anyone who's defending Amway has really seen how ugly it can get.

I don't think they know people who have lost loads of money, countless friends and severed relationships with family.

I really do not believe that they've dealt with people in situations like these that I have unfortunately dealt with numerous times.

I don't think they know people who worked over 80 hours a week to make just enough money to buy their Amway/Quixstar products and books. All the while, bear in mind, these are at real jobs. They're not making any money at Amway. "Yet," they would say at best in acknowledging this simple fact. "I'm making an investment in my future because I want what's best for me and my family. You don't understand. You're ignorant and have no ambition." Heard variations on that too many times.

Worse though, I don't think any Amway defender has dealt with people who no longer will speak to their parents, siblings and friends because their new Amway family says to cut anyone or anything out of their life that questions or speaks negatively about Amway and their business. I've seen this way too many times, and it's just plain sad for all of those affected. It's like losing someone to a cult. No, it is losing someone to a cult.

And all the while usually the family in particular is just trying to help stop the blatantly-obvious financial bleeding that's taking place. They're just doing the simple math; tons of money going out, no money coming in, countless hours spent working. Simple stuff for most people; tougher for people trapped in a cult.

Again, I'm planning on calling and writing to the Red Wings to express my distaste. I would recommend that the many here, seemingly the vast majority, who are upset over this news do the same.
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#70 Gizmo

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:48 PM

I think about the only thing that would be worse is if the Amway patches would be replaced by ones that said "Dianetics"! :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
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#71 55fan

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 12:11 AM

My friend and her family are not nut jobs. I have no idea when or if they got out because I lost contact after college, but I can tell you that 20 years ago, they were quite normal people.

Since you'd love to hear how I figured out that it wouldn't work out mathematically, I'll tell you. You buy from the people above you. They buy from the people above them. And so it goes on.

Do the math. Let's say that each person gets 10 people under them.

The top person has 10 people. Level 1=1 person. Level 2=10. Total=11.
Level 3 has 100 people. Grand total=111
Level 4 has 1000 people. Grand total=1111
Level 5 has 10,000 people. Grand total=11,111
Level 6 has 100,000 people. Grand total=111,111
Level 7 has 1,000,000 people. Grand total=1,111,111
Level 8 has 10,000,000 people. Grand total=11,111,111
Level 9 has 100,000,000 people. Grand total=111,111,111

We are now at the 9th level, and we have over a million people. There are 2 founders, so double that final grand total. We now have over 200 million people. This is approximately the adult population of the US.

The population of the world is roughly 6.9 billion. Most of these people are either children or are too poor to buy any of these products, or are part of a remote population who do not use these products.

Realistically, you might get a level 10 with 1 billion people in it, but they do not have enough people left on the planet to take it to a level 11. There just aren't 10 billion people on the planet.

And this is assuming that everyone contacted agrees to the system. As you have seen here, perhaps only 1 out of 10 (in this thread) would even consider it, and I'm counting Martyrme as the 1, despite the fact that he/she has rejected the offer.

So it ends one of two ways: Either the people on levels 8 and 9 can't make any money because there is no one to sell to, or we don't even get to those levels because the top people are gathering more than 10 people.

So even if everyone agrees to be involved, there are only levels 7 on up making any money at all, and 6 and 7 aren't making very much at all. Which means that out of the entire population, just over 10,000 are making a living at it, while the rest are spending or breaking even.

If you go with the 1 in 10 people in the population agreeing to go along with it, then you bottom out at level 7, so levels 6 and 7 are paying in, 4 and 5 are making a bit of money or breaking even, while levels 1-3 are making money. This is 111 people making money off of the rest, assuming that those people were content to stop at 10 people on their level. If they get more, that's just more people that can't be assimilated on the lower levels, and more money for the uppers.

It's a combination of simple math and human behaviour.

It can only profit the top, who are also profiting from the motivational materials that the underlings must buy if they are following the system. Some people buy into it. They really believe that if they buy more tapes and books that they will be millionaires, and if they haven't recruited large numbers of people that it is their fault and not the fact that there are simply not enough people to make the lower levels rich.

#72 Kira

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 10:03 AM

These two crackpots who started this fiasco think they own the city of Grand Rapids. Their names are on everything in that town. DeVos also tried to run for governor, and got his ass kicked by Jennifer Granholm. He couldn't own everyone, thank God.

I'm with the one who said they would write a letter to protest this. I love my team, and I always will. The love for the Wings goes back almost 50 years (yes, I'm that old), longer than most marriages last. But this is too much.
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#73 Konnan511

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:44 AM

If someone scammed you into killing someone it doesn't make it any less wrong if you didn't have the brain capacity to say no and walk away. Same principle; they are praying on the weak. Does that make it alright? f*** no.

The official vitamin of the DRW? So now we get to see the likes of Datsyuk or Zetta pushing commercials for pills? Hopefully they set up some helpful informational kiosks inside Joe Louis trying to recruit new members to their scheme. Only $20 to hear the first five minutes about how some schmo bought a yacht!


Except, again, you'd have to be a real idiot to be scammed into killing someone. Same principle. It's like the stock market crashing and some investor saying, "Look, I have this great stock that won't fail". It'd take a real idiot to start buying stocks at that moment. I understand that Scamway is a shady organization, but business is business and if want the Wings to stay competitive, Illitch needs the unlimited funds that we all like him to have.
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#74 roboturner

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 05:06 PM

Yahoo Article

And the jokes begin...

Detroit Red Wings Presented by Amway: Pavel Datsyuk has great hands, reports everyone ever connected with the NHL in any even remotely tangible way. I just wish more people would talk about how great he is. So little respect.


Gold Star Award

I would like to thank the Detroit Red Wings Presented by Amway for being presented by Amway. This will literally be funny forever.

Talk about embarrassing.


Edited by roboturner, 05 September 2011 - 06:06 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#75 13GoWings40

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:05 PM

I know multiple people that do Amway. Some have made a ton of money, some havent. I also know people that have gone through info meetings, such as myself.

Lets make one thing clear - your friends and her family are nut jobs. NOT the company. The company didn't yell at her for not wearing a dress. (I know there is no company rule about this, it was probably a personal rule laid out by the crazy family).

I would LOVE to see how you are so uniquely smart that you of all people were able to mathematically solve how this multi-billion dollar company has actually made no money for people. Because apparently, they were able to dupe EVERYONE ELSE in this world to help generate billions and billions of dollars. Have you submitted your mathematical equation to the newspapers? You too could be rich!

As I've said, I've been to the meetings multiple times and I agree - they aren't for me. But to say Amway is crooked because some INDEPENDENT proprietors do their job a little more high pressure than others makes you equally as nutty.

Sales is high pressure. I don't care if you're selling Amway, Cutco knives, cars, electronics or magazine subscriptions. In order to survive, you can't just walk away every time you hear the word no. Sorry if you're too weak to stick to your guns just because someone is persistent. Again, that's just sales. It isn't illegal nor should it be. We all have choices to make.


Thank you, at least one person in this thread understands the concept of personal responsibility. I can't believe people are actually ignorant enough to neg your posts. The good thing about capitalism is that it has lifted countless millions out of poverty, the bad thing about capitalism is that if you make uninformed decisions you lose your money. But don't blame the person who made the uninformed decision, he/she is a victim of the system and doomed to poverty by pure bad luck/scheming by evil rich people :rolleyes:.

On topic, I hate the fact that we have a corporate sponsor, but that has nothing to with it being Amway, I just don't want to see our sweaters start to look like the hood of a NASCAR car.

#76 Uncle Danny

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 08:37 PM

Thank you, at least one person in this thread understands the concept of personal responsibility. I can't believe people are actually ignorant enough to neg your posts. The good thing about capitalism is that it has lifted countless millions out of poverty, the bad thing about capitalism is that if you make uninformed decisions you lose your money. But don't blame the person who made the uninformed decision, he/she is a victim of the system and doomed to poverty by pure bad luck/scheming by evil rich people :rolleyes:.

On topic, I hate the fact that we have a corporate sponsor, but that has nothing to with it being Amway, I just don't want to see our sweaters start to look like the hood of a NASCAR car.


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#77 VM1138

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 10:23 PM

Not totally familiar with the intricacies of Amway, but they ARE shady. That being said, it's not their fault people fall for it. They are not technically doing anything illegal. From what I understand, they even buy back the merchandise that an IBO doesn't sell, which sort of disqualifies it for the "pyramid scheme" plan. If people get way too caught up in it, that's their own problem. It's really no different than blogging online. You're not going to make a ton of money doing it, and you should realize that, not let it destroy your life thinking you're "next big payday" is just around the corner.

Still do NOT like this partnership, not a great organization and kind of makes me wonder about Illitch now.
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#78 gcom007

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 10:47 PM

Thank you, at least one person in this thread understands the concept of personal responsibility. I can't believe people are actually ignorant enough to neg your posts. The good thing about capitalism is that it has lifted countless millions out of poverty, the bad thing about capitalism is that if you make uninformed decisions you lose your money. But don't blame the person who made the uninformed decision, he/she is a victim of the system and doomed to poverty by pure bad luck/scheming by evil rich people :rolleyes:.

On topic, I hate the fact that we have a corporate sponsor, but that has nothing to with it being Amway, I just don't want to see our sweaters start to look like the hood of a NASCAR car.


Wow, straw man, wow. If you're going to go there, I guess I will to while further defending my position on this matter.

The ideas of holding Amway responsible for their part in running a sleazy, manipulative business and holding individuals joining in that business responsible for their actions are not mutually exclusive. By no means would I suggest that all the Amway "IBO's" are any more victims of Amway's schemes as they are their own greed and gullibility. Ask any friend of mine that's gotten involved and then out of Amway if I ever gave them a pass and they'll tell you flat out that I didn't hold any punches in making them acknowledge what went profoundly wrong in their thought process.

The main colossal flaw in your perspective is very simple to illustrate. Just consider drug dealers and drug addicts. Is anyone in their right mind going to pronounce the drug dealer innocent by virtue of capitalism and the drug addicts guilty because they made the choice to buy the drugs? Does that make any sense at all? I don't think so.

Few things in life are black and white. Is it not possible that both have slipped up here? And in an effort to address a general problem, is it not reasonable to want to look for root causes? Is it not reasonable to objectively evaluate the whole of a problem to better understand it? Surely no more unreasonable than seemingly suggesting that we shouldn't criticize Amway, again, seemingly by virtue of the positive economic and social benefits of the capitalist system in general, as a wrong-doer.

The only thing black and white about this topic to me is that there are a lot of people running the scheme and placing their hope on the scheme that are making harmful choices. The primary difference between the runners and the participants though is that for the most part, in the short-term, an Amway "IBO" is making choices that hurt themselves. But Amway's decision to resort to a business model that clearly is centered around exploiting people's weaknesses and circumventing people's typical consumer defenses. It's a business model that is underhanded and predatory.

And lumping Amway in with capitalists is disrespectful to the essence of capitalism. The product Amway is most profiting on is (false) hope. The "products" you supposedly join Amway to sell are almost entirely purchased by and for the Amway IBO's, though internally you're simply "investing into your business." All the while you're also pouring more money into your Amway membership, a never-ending supply of "motivational and educational" material to help you grow your business, conferences to further inspire you, and if you manage to wind up sticking with it long enough to get some people under you, you're buying their "consumer products" too, and by that I mean far too often, the people under you that you're purchasing the vitamins for don't pay up. Nothing you can do about that. Oh well, just chalk it up to an "investment in your business."

Bottom line, Amway is anything but a commendable capitalist venture. No corporation or business is perfect, but usually most businesses are actually trying to offer an actual product or service that is of some tangible substance to someone. And what truly is great about capitalism is that if you have a great product that a lot of people want, you will be rewarded for producing and selling it, and I take no issue with this concept at all. But again, when looked at wholistically and objectively, it's clear that Amway is not producing a product that offers consumers much in terms of utility. Indeed, their primary product, the hope and the dream, is essentially vaporware, to use the word generally.

Furthermore, they have engineered their system to trip people's defenses up by infiltrating organizations, churches, clubs, basically any group of people that already has a built-in trust factor. They use that trust and social pressure against people, as well as every other little trick to take advantage of the less noble aspects of human nature. They know this. They've spent years crafting their "drug," and just as much time pin-pointing the easiest targets. They know exactly what they're doing. Again, it's predatory and underhanded.

You can easily dig deeper and mine up plenty of information to suggest that their ill-informed financial choices hurt the society and economy on whole as well. Just like all the terrible real-estate loans given out in the late-90's that came back to haunt us in 2008, people made poor personal decisions that ended up hurting the economy and society on whole. In that case as well, it's absurd and illogical to only blame the banks for offering the loans or only blame those taking the loans for taking more than they could expect to reasonably handle. All parties involved made poor decisions. I don't care who you are or what side you're on, if you're making poor decisions, you're part of the problem.

By this reasonable logic, I conclude that Amway is very much part of the problem. They are not the whole of the problem and their part in it does not minimize the role of personal responsibility at all. But they are the purveyors of a blatantly crooked business model that has been shown time and time again to have a tremendous negative effect on people's lives. That matter has nothing to do with capitalism, and as clearly illustrated, the logic that justifies their actions by virtue of capitalism opens plenty of doors to effects that I absolutely guarantee would send you crying to your knees if they came knocking on your doorstep.

Quite simply, Amway does infinitely more harm than good for society. Most any reasonable, objective, informed person can logically understand and defend that accusation. To many of us, the logical side of it as well as the emotional side of having to deal with friends and family who's lives were devastated by joining Amway leave us with nothing but contempt and disgust for Amway. That is why we don't want to have a team we love have much of anything to do with Amway if at all possible, let alone having to incessantly read and hear "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Amway."

The Detroit Red Wings, one of the classiest organizations in all of sports, presented by Amway, a company always bound to be one of the scummiest on any list of sleazy businesses.

The whole idea is nothing short of utterly disgraceful.
-Elliot...does not panic.

#79 13GoWings40

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:05 PM

Honest question: how old are you?


Does it make you feel smart to talk down to anonymous people on the internet?

To answer your question I am 21 (D.O.B. 11/28/1989), I graduated from U-M in December and have been unemployed ever since. But guess what, I don't expect the government to pay off my student loans, or keep me from making bad investments like spending $100,000 on a history degree that I now have to find some way to pay back, or pay for me to sit on my ass and do nothing. The choices I have made in life are my own and I don't have anyone to blame for my current position but myself, the burden of those decisions falls solely on myself and those members of my family who are willing to help me. I can't believe the only negs I have ever gotten were for a post defending capitalism and extolling the virtues of personal responsibility...

The point of my post was that any adult knows that you can't work 10 hours a week and make $250,000 a year, unless maybe you've put in 20+ years of 80 hour work weeks already. Anyone who knows anything about business knows you don't keep dumping money into a business that isn't profitable. People who lose their money in these kinds of schemes are people who are looking to get rich quick without doing any work. I am sorry, life does not work that way.

#80 Hiei

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:13 PM

Can you all shut the hell up about how Amway does their business (shady or not) and maybe discuss something relating to the Red Wings here?


After all, at least Amway is less shady than the US Government. and i'm glad the Gov't doesn't sponsor our team :P

"Hit em with your purse, ya *****!" - Random Wings fans shouting at Franziska






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