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Red Crazy

Call the team out

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I think people are getting pissy because other teams lose guys and keep rolling. This team loses a guy and falls apart and I think everyone has been pissed about the PP and its not injuries that are causing that problem.

I don't think that Jimmy, Pavs. Lids, Big Rig, Kindl, Bert, and Eaves are "a guy" . . . nor are three of those players regular "guys" --- You are talking about far and away the best forward on the team (and one of if not the best in the league), far and away the best defenseman on the team (and one of if not the best in the league), and a goalie that people on this site and elsewhere were saying should be considered (although probably not win) the Vezina (and also mentions of a Hart Trophy candidate). Other teams do not lose the combo of guys like that (along with the other four and a severly hobbled Cleary) and just "keep rolling"

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The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats.

Those are two HUGE guys in our lineup. Best two-way forward in the league? Best defenseman in the league? $12 mil that we have sitting on the shelf and can't replace. I'm sure at least Crosby was on IR so they could use his cap space? I'm just guessing, but sounds reasonable.

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The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats. The other 5 'starters' are replaceable and Eaves hasn't played in ages. Kindl was scratched half the time, Ericsson has been better but Quincy and Smith are both better IMO, Bert only plays when he feels like it and MacDonald kept the team in games with saves goalies shouldn't have to be making.

They are really only down 2 guys that matter IMO. Everyone else that was / is hurt can be replaced or their replacement played close to their level (Howard's case). Either way the defensive lapses that occur and the turn overs are not being made by the guys that are replacements anyway. Its the bottom line, Kronwall, White, Hudler etc that are making the bone headed plays that end up being odd man rushes / 1v1 or guys not clearing the puck after Howard makes crazy saves like last night.

So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.

So you're saying they weren't missing 5 other regulars? That's my point. We can sit here and debate over the importance of those other 5, but I'd argue that they are put of the team chemistry and simply replacing them with GR kids isn't going to have the same effect.

I've been hearing LGW complain about floaters ever since I started viewing this site. It's funny how everyone seems to think all (or most) of the floaters in the league just happened to be on the Wings. Not everyone's style is "in your face" every second of every game. Having guys like Helm and Abdelkader on the team only display the discrepancy between role players who aren't every-game scorers and that of guys who are. No team in the NHL has 6 scorers and 6 tenacious forecheckers.

Guys do different things. Now would be the time for everyone to do some self-reflection and determine the ending they want for this season. Even still, it doesn't mean you're going to get it.

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The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats. The other 5 'starters' are replaceable and Eaves hasn't played in ages. Kindl was scratched half the time, Ericsson has been better but Quincy and Smith are both better IMO, Bert only plays when he feels like it and MacDonald kept the team in games with saves goalies shouldn't have to be making.

They are really only down 2 guys that matter IMO. Everyone else that was / is hurt can be replaced or their replacement played close to their level (Howard's case). Either way the defensive lapses that occur and the turn overs are not being made by the guys that are replacements anyway. Its the bottom line, Kronwall, White, Hudler etc that are making the bone headed plays that end up being odd man rushes / 1v1 or guys not clearing the puck after Howard makes crazy saves like last night.

So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.

Couldn't disagree more. First, regardless of if they can be replaced there is a problem anytime you have 7 regular players out of your lineup. It messes with the team chemistry (that is why teams are often wary about moves at the trade deadline unless they need to change the chemistry), also you are talking about 1/2 of your regular defensive lineup that has to have an effect on a team especially one playing in front of a career AHL goalie (even if he is playing really well - you just assume it won't last). Second, Cleary should be out but of his knee but can't and is playing severely hobbled. Third, did you really compare Letang to Lids in any degree? Forth, as mentioned above Joey played well while Jimmy was hurt but no one would think of giving him a couple year contract and going with him as your starting goalie. The team knows this even if they feel comfortable with how he is currently playing careerwise he is not a NHL starting goaltender and that affects how a team plays in front of him. Finally, dismiss Bert all you want but Babs was raving about him before got hurt and the team thought he was playing great enough to give him a two year contract and raise his pay (they obviously don't think he is that "easily replaceable").

Bottom, you don't just swap out 7 players including your two best and your starting goaltender and that not have an enormous impact.

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So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.

Lucky for them they've got Malkin to pick them up; few teams can boast such an effective "Plan B."

Injuries are always frustrating, and so hopelessly out of anyone's control. We want to believe that a little more heart or grit or whatever will get the job done, but the fact of the matter is you need talent; a second line of Nyquist-Franzen-Cleary isn't going to do it.

Pavel coming back will have a huge cascade effect on the lineup. You add one guy that is great at scoring, can put guys next to him that are otherwise being wasted without a good setup man, and can demote players playing above their normal station back to lines where they are more comfortable.

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Lucky for them they've got Malkin to pick them up; few teams can boast such an effective "Plan B."

Injuries are always frustrating, and so hopelessly out of anyone's control. We want to believe that a little more heart or grit or whatever will get the job done, but the fact of the matter is you need talent; a second line of Nyquist-Franzen-Cleary isn't going to do it.

Pavel coming back will have a huge cascade effect on the lineup. You add one guy that is great at scoring, can put guys next to him that are otherwise being wasted without a good setup man, and can demote players playing above their normal station back to lines where they are more comfortable.

Exactly, additionally it means that teams have to focus their best defensemen on Pavel and so each line below gets to play with less defensive pressure against them. The impact of everyone not having to play above their roll/ability when Pavel and Lids are back cannot be underestimated.

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Exactly, additionally it means that teams have to focus their best defensemen on Pavel and so each line below gets to play with less defensive pressure against them. The impact of everyone not having to play above their roll/ability when Pavel and Lids are back cannot be underestimated.

That's a good point. Match ups are less of an issue for teams as it stands. Would you rather have to match up your lines against Zetterberg, or Pavel and Zetterberg? Right now there is only one line for the opposition to contend with, getting Pavel back spreads out the talent on both sides. I guess that brings us back to what we already knew though, we currently have no depth.

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I know holland wants the prospects over-ripe, but with Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl, Smith, Emmerton, and Mursak banging on the door hard this year, I cannot justify us hanging on to some of these other players. Hudler for one (Sorry Huds, you don't get my vote for mayor anymore) and probably also Cleary (after next year). Homer and Lidstrom are set to retire, Stuart is likely gone to the west coast. Helm, Abby, Quincey are up for Re-signing. I don't think Holland would've gotten Quincey had he not intended to sign him over the offseason. Janik is UFA this year.

Simply put, we need an effective plan B. and is it just me, or do we need to take Hudler off the 2nd line and put Cleary there maybe? park his ass in front of the net?

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How come the Pens were going on win streaks with their best player out? Sometimes even with Malkin and others out as well?

It'd be nice if the other players just stepped up and played that much harder. But instead, we have a built in excuse for this next week or so. It's a little frustrating to say the least.

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We cannot continue with this injury blaming BS. It is not helping matters but it is not the sole reason we have issues. The issues have been there before the injuries. This team just lacks urgency and consistency much of the time.

Exactly.

I am getting tired of hearing the same lame "when we get Dats and Lids back, we'll be perfect again" Maybe in some ideal fantasy world, yes. But in reality that ignores the facts that the PP still sucked before they left along with the points mentioned above. Its a lame excuse that ignores the fact that the team had the same problems with them in the lineup.

And I don't even know what to say about the PP. Its been absolutely dismal all year. Wings are currently under 16% on the PP. Think about that. That is beyond horrible for the Wings.

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I have no issues calling the team out for lack of hustle. That is what we saw yesterday. When you look at Pittsburgh, who was missing Crosby, Letang, and Staal for a bit earlier this year, you didn't see their other guys slacking. Their callups have been super, and if they aren't scoring, they are hustling. I believe that the Wings callups should be doing the same thing, but they are not.

Every team is going to go through a tough spell. The Wings have had a couple cold stretches where they haven't been very good. Injuries or not, the team has to weather the storm and come out of it for the better. Go ahead, call out the players. I believe that when the Wings get healthy and their chemistry back, the wins will come. In order to win the Stanley cup, a team has to have good goaltending, be healthy, and have some puck luck. I think this team will be healthy come playoff time, and that will be a huge factor.

Edited by Nightfall

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Someone needs to call out Ian White for his recent play.

I know Lidstrom makes everyone looks better, but this guy has presumably played hockey without Lidstrom at some point in his career. He just looks lost out there in front of his own net.

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Special teams have always been a point of concern this year and it is something that the Wings will have to work on, but they can't do much in the state they're currently in. Injuries absolutely play a role in the play we have witnessed, and I think a much larger role than a lot of folks may realize. When a player goes down, you aren't just losing his point total. You lose the chemistry that he has with his teammates, you lose the attention that he gets from the opposition, you lose the special skill set that your team has been designed to compliment. Datsyuk and lidstrom are obviously huge losses for the Wings, but Bertuzzi, Kindl, Eriksson, etc are all significant losses too, based on the above. They're being replaced with guys with capable skill, but little to no experience with the team, their linemates, or the system. That pulls down the play of everyone. I'm seeing a lot of bad passes and a lot more miscommunication, and it has resulted directly into shorthanded goals against, even strength goals against, power play goals against, prevented us from establishing the offensive zone (the only line that seems comfortable with neutral zone passing is Zetterberg's line), prevented us from even getting scoring opportunities. When guys start returning, these problems should disappear, and they can get back to focusing on road wins, power plays, penalty kills, and whatever else plagued them when they were healthy. Babs and co will say they're working on it now, but with the lineup they have it's just not possible, and none of these issues will be fixed until our lineup starts to resemble what it was a month ago.

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The only regular on the powerplay point that is out is Lidstrom. Kronwall, White, and Hudler all got regular time there. Quincey has played the point a lot before he got here, and Smith is only being thrown in because Hudler is just that bad.

Let's not make excuses for just how incredibly bad this powerplay has been.

one of the main reasons the PP is so terrible is cause of the constant giveaways on each unit by Homer and Cleary. They are both somewhat weak at carrying the puck through any traffic whatsoever and end up blindly throwing the puck away and unfortunately 8 out of 10 times it goes directly to the other team. another point on Homer is his lack of points. if he's not producing anything in what?...20 games? then get him off the PP and move Hudler up to forward. atleast Huds can one-time the puck. Homer needs to hang out in the press box. and keep Nyquist up and maybe toss him on the PP with Dats and Mule when Dats is back.

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There are two ways to inspire performance: fear and love.

A coach can yell at his players and chide them personally in the media and maybe get them to perform at a high level for a while, but eventually that method burns itself out. No one wants to be angry all the time, and eventually players stop caring.

The alternative is to take the long-view approach. Set a goal and encourage people to perform in a positive way. This way can seem ineffective to outsiders, but the coach and players know they are all on the same team and support each other.

Think about what environment you perform your best work in. Ask yourself whether you can maintain the standard for performance in your job that you hold over these players. The goal is to win, and laziness needs to be discouraged, but these constant calls for benching players or calling them out reflects confusion of what constitutes effective leadership.

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Im glad we have a coach that doesn't lose his cool all the time. He could be saying in post game "we suck, this guy sucks, the fans on LGW are right we need a shakeup." Then he would be losing the respect of his players and eventually be out of a job. A call out isn't what this team needs....what they do need is everyone healthy and in playing shape, and a few goals to add as well. Chill out mofo's, it's an 82 game season, and we have a banged up team. What, you think they're gonna win every single game? Fans should support the team, encourage them, be optimistic.. Everytime the Wings lose, its off with someones head... Obviously they care more about a healthy team, young guys opportunity, and long playoff run rather than busting ass to get the P trophy and being wore and tore by the time the postseason begins.

On a side note... has Hudler scored a goal in a game where the Wings didn't lose?

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There are two ways to inspire performance: fear and love.

A coach can yell at his players and chide them personally in the media and maybe get them to perform at a high level for a while, but eventually that method burns itself out. No one wants to be angry all the time, and eventually players stop caring.

The alternative is to take the long-view approach. Set a goal and encourage people to perform in a positive way. This way can seem ineffective to outsiders, but the coach and players know they are all on the same team and support each other.

Think about what environment you perform your best work in. Ask yourself whether you can maintain the standard for performance in your job that you hold over these players. The goal is to win, and laziness needs to be discouraged, but these constant calls for benching players or calling them out reflects confusion of what constitutes effective leadership.

Thinking about this and asking myself this question as a pure example of the two way listed above to inspire:

Does John Tortorella inspire performance through love?

Does John Tortorella inspire performance through fear?

hmmmmm

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His point was about giving up the short handed goals. I'm pretty sure it was Smith that lost the puck that led to the shorty last night. The guys has 10 NHL games under his belt. It happens. I think that was the point.

So Smith caused one. Who caused all the rest? The usual suspects.

At the risk of sounding like Eva, Hudler hasn't been nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. The guy has put up 42 points so far this season, half of which are goals. Are some of them luck or the result of good linemates, of course. However, name one NHL'er who doesn't get lucky goals or benefits from playing with good linemates. s***, Z scores some terribly lucky goals. His off-angle shots always magically go in and sometimes they tend to fall when he's in his worst slumps.

Hudler is the worst 20-goal scorer in the league. I would take literally any player that currently has 20+ goals over him.

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Hudler is the worst 20-goal scorer in the league. I would take literally any player that currently has 20+ goals over him.

Never would have guessed by your avatar. Very subtle.

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On a side note... has Hudler scored a goal in a game where the Wings didn't lose?

There are two I know of for sure: he scored two in the Jan 3 win over Dallas as well as another on Jan 17 plus the SO winner.

Never would have guessed by your avatar. Very subtle.

Or the screen name.

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Exactly.

I am getting tired of hearing the same lame "when we get Dats and Lids back, we'll be perfect again" Maybe in some ideal fantasy world, yes. But in reality that ignores the facts that the PP still sucked before they left along with the points mentioned above. Its a lame excuse that ignores the fact that the team had the same problems with them in the lineup.

And I don't even know what to say about the PP. Its been absolutely dismal all year. Wings are currently under 16% on the PP. Think about that. That is beyond horrible for the Wings.

I don't disagree with the fact that the PP was not doing well before Dats and Lids got hurt, although it has been even worse with them out. The point however, is that when they were in, the Wings were winning a lot more (the only thing that ultimately matters) were 1st in their division, 1st in their conference, and in a daily battle for 1st in the NHL. They are no longer winning as much, and are not 1st in any of the standings. That is the real problem and that is directly related to Pavel and Nick being out.

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Thinking about this and asking myself this question as a pure example of the two way listed above to inspire:

Does John Tortorella inspire performance through love?

Does John Tortorella inspire performance through fear?

hmmmmm

hmmmmm

You mean the John Tortorella who hasn't taken a team out of the first round since the lockout? The John Tortorella who has missed the playoffs entirely two of the last 4 years? The John Tortorella who has taken the Rangers to a grand total of 12 playoff games during his tenure, while going 4-8 in those games? Who cares how he inspires?

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and is it just me, or do we need to take Hudler off the 2nd line and put Cleary there maybe? park his ass in front of the net?

Cleary won't do any better than Hudler. Datsyuk Z and Flip are our only good top 6 forwards. When he comes back I think we should put Datsyuk with Franzen and Hudler and see if that works at all, and Bert with Z and Flip. I'm pretty sure that's our best best. Put Nyquist with Helm and Miller and on the fourth line use Abdelkader, Cleary and Mursak.

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one of the main reasons the PP is so terrible is cause of the constant giveaways on each unit by Homer and Cleary. They are both somewhat weak at carrying the puck through any traffic whatsoever and end up blindly throwing the puck away and unfortunately 8 out of 10 times it goes directly to the other team. another point on Homer is his lack of points. if he's not producing anything in what?...20 games? then get him off the PP and move Hudler up to forward. atleast Huds can one-time the puck. Homer needs to hang out in the press box. and keep Nyquist up and maybe toss him on the PP with Dats and Mule when Dats is back.

Hudler played forward on the PP unit against the Flyers and still managed to skate the puck towards the point and gave it away and a short handed goal ensued.. Hudler is NOT an answer on the PP. He should not be on the ice during the PP.

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Yep and someone will go down in the playoffs and they will exit that round. A team built like that is a team built to lose when it matters. A team does not give up 4 SHGs in 6 games because Dats and Lids are missing. A team does not forget how to play defense because Lids is hurt. There are bigger problems with this team than injuries.

It's because most of those guys look good because they play with Dats or Lids. When they have to make their own decision or their own chance they choke. I thought of Hudler the entire time I typed this

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