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Tim.D

Red Wings Prepared to Offer Hudler Contract

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To me, the main thing to consider when it comes to offering Hudler a contract is whether or not we expect Nyquist to be on the team full time next season. If management doesn't expect Nyquist to play everyday then resigning Hudler makes sense because he fills the second line winger position and allows you to field a real good Bert-Helm-Cleary third line, and a dynamite Miller-Abby-Eaves fourth line. However, if they are expecting them both to play full time then that really puts the bottom six in disarray because Nyquist has too much skill to be on the fourth line, and is mismatched in terms of style on a third line with Helm, Bert, or Cleary. I think someone here mentioned something recently about the bottom two lines needing identity. They have it so long as Gustav Nyquist doesn't play on those two lines. A highly skilled player on either of those lines as they are conceived above doesn't make any sense.

So the question to me is, does Nyquist play every day? The answer seems to depend on getting a real scoring threat to play with Datsyuk. You get a Parise or a Semin to play with Datsyuk and Franzen, then you can afford to lose Hudler's production on the second line because the third line and fourth lines will be MUCH better than last year's incarnations. If they don't get the top liner to go with D and Franzen, then you might as well resign Hudler because you'll need the offense any way you can get it, especially considering one of either Bert or Cleary will have to be back in the top six which will ultimately limit the production you'll get out of the bottom two lines.

as much as we disagree on things, these are my exacts thoughts...matter of fact, I mentioned Nyquist a little earlier on and your idea of the bottom six is mine exactly (that is if we don't acquire a big man for the 4th.)

edit: I know my dream roster in my sig says a bit different, but obviously of Doan is not acquired, Franzen moves back up, Filppula moves back up, Helm moves back up and Eaves moves back up, making Miller our 13th...

Edited by LeftWinger

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as much as we disagree on things, these are my exacts thoughts...matter of fact, I mentioned Nyquist a little earlier on and your idea of the bottom six is mine exactly (that is if we don't acquire a big man for the 4th.)

edit: I know my dream roster in my sig says a bit different, but obviously of Doan is not acquired, Franzen moves back up, Filppula moves back up, Helm moves back up and Eaves moves back up, making Miller our 13th...

Yeah, we really just need depth signings on the top end. Signing one top line player actually makes the first, third, and fourth lines better by itself. If that happens you don't NEED Hudler's points, though they are nothing to scoff at, and you can give Nyquist the shot. However, without a top liner you end up scrambling to find quality line combinations, like we did last year, and you end up playing guys in roles they aren't suited for (e.g. Abby as a third line forward capable of scoring ever). Without front end talent our depth is seriously questionable and you have to resign Hudler to field anything close to a competitive team.

side note: We don't disagree on much. 4 out of 10 disagreement here at LGW involve people not completely reading and comprehending what someone else is trying to say. 3 out of 10 involve one party or the other being pissed off because they sincerely want the team to do well and think they have correctly identified the problem. 2 out of 10 disagreements involve one party or another intentionally trying to be dick on the internet because there's really no harm in it, so why not? Only, 1 out of 10 disagreements on LGW is truly substantive.

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I want to see nyquist up full time for sure! I want to see a nyq/Dats/Z line some day soon.

I don't want to see that line ever. Why put all your playmakers on one line? Who would be the other line, Franzen-Filppula-Clear/Bert...ugh.

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That has to to be the dumbest thing I've heard on this board in a long time. Why?

Holland could announce tomorrow he and Hudler have decided to sign him to a 3 year 9 million dollar contract. Meaning they have locked him up at a reasonable rate for a guy who can give you 20+ goals and 50+ points a season.

It's not a realistic deal and Hudler is nowhere near where he was before he left fo the KHL. Yes he improved this past season vs the the 10-11 Season but not as good as he was in 08 or 09. We could used the money to get someone a bit better. So it's how I feel no one is asking you to feel the same.

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Looking further ahead to NEXT summer, I am inclined to believe that maybe Kenny should sign Parise and Suter and keep the rest of his Cap space. Why? Because we need to have enough Cap space to sign Shea Weber as he will be a UFA by then. Also, we need to lock up Filppula and Howard to new contract extensions. Here is what we could look like after next July 1st...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)

Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($1.500m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)

Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.250m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)

Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Ryan Suter ($7.000m) / Shea Weber ($8.000m)

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.250m)

Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,473,712; BONUSES: $247,500

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $826,288

So we need to find some room to give Jimmy around 4-5 mil a year most likely. Flip will likely come around the same numbers. So do we let Quincey and his 3 plus mil go? White will be a UFA next summer and can be replaced with Weber. Tatar will be on the team then replacing Emmerton. Does Kenny use all of his cap space this summer but only on 1 year deals? Parise and Suter will get long term deals in the 10 year range. But after that, I think Kenny should not lock in any long term deals so he can have enough room to go after Weber and factor in raises for Flip and Jimmy.

:rolleyes:

You assume way too much:

#1 The new CBA could give a much lower cap limit, so there is no way to know if the Wings will have 8 million dollars to spend on Weber.

#2 Only 4 players in the NHL make over 8 million dollars per season, 3 are three of the top forwards in the world, the other is Eric Staal (go figure). Weber getting 8 million per season is pretty far fetched.

#3 Way too much for Howard... anything over 4 million long term is an overpayment for a goaltender in the NHL. Flip may or may not be an overpayment, depends on the numbers he puts up next season.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

:rolleyes:

You assume way too much:

#1 The new CBA could give a much lower cap limit, so there is no way to know if the Wings will have 8 million dollars to spend on Weber.

#2 Only 4 players in the NHL make over 8 million dollars per season, 3 are three of the top forwards in the world, the other is Eric Staal (go figure). Weber getting 8 million per season is pretty far fetched.

#3 Way too much for Howard... anything over 4 million long term is an overpayment for a goaltender in the NHL. Flip may or may not be an overpayment, depends on the numbers he puts up next season.

Assuming is essentially what the off season is for. What else are we going to do? Alot will happen between now and July 1st, 2013. I still think Kenny will give himself the option of adding Weber next summer. Suter and Parise are the priorities right now obviously. Weber will be the focus next summer assuming he is indeed available.

No one knows what the next CBA will be like. You don't know more than me or anyone else does. Howard will get more than you think because of his age and his proven track record of success. He is underpaid right now with his current salary. Ilya Bryzgalov makes 7 mil a year and plays like a back-up. I can see Howard accepting less to stay in Detroit when Kenny makes him an offer. He will get at least 4 mil a season. Flip will get at least 4 mil because this is where players of his ilk are being slotted on the pay scale.

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Assuming is essentially what the off season is for. What else are we going to do? Alot will happen between now and July 1st, 2013. I still think Kenny will give himself the option of adding Weber next summer. Suter and Parise are the priorities right now obviously. Weber will be the focus next summer assuming he is indeed available.

No one knows what the next CBA will be like. You don't know more than me or anyone else does. Howard will get more than you think because of his age and his proven track record of success. He is underpaid right now with his current salary. Ilya Bryzgalov makes 7 mil a year and plays like a back-up. I can see Howard accepting less to stay in Detroit when Kenny makes him an offer. He will get at least 4 mil a season. Flip will get at least 4 mil because this is where players of his ilk are being slotted on the pay scale.

I don't see Holland spending more that 4 million on the high end for Howard, his philosophy is not to overpay one goaltender, but to have an affordable tandem. As for Flip, its all dependent on this season, if last season was foreshadowing of whats to come, I can see 4-4.5, if he regresses this season, I could see a cap hit closer to Franzen's numbers.

As for the CBA, I may not know, but the writing on the wall seems to point to a reduction in the cap limit. If you've read what ownership/the NHL wants (like reduction in the players share of revenue) its implausible to believe the cap wont drop by as much as 15% with 7-10% being a safe bet.

As for Weber, thats simple, Nashville can't afford (financially) to lose him, I expect them to extend him for multiple years at a cap hit around 7.2 million to keep themselves near the cap floor.

Edited by Shaman464

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

I don't see Holland spending more that 4 million on the high end for Howard, his philosophy is not to overpay one goaltender, but to have an affordable tandem. As for Flip, its all dependent on this season, if last season was foreshadowing of whats to come, I can see 4-4.5, if he regresses this season, I could see a cap hit closer to Franzen's numbers.

As for the CBA, I may not know, but the writing on the wall seems to point to a reduction in the cap limit. If you've read what ownership/the NHL wants (like reduction in the players share of revenue) its implausible to believe the cap wont drop by as much as 15% with 7-10% being a safe bet.

4 mil may be what Howard ends up getting. It is almost double his current salary. I can see Flip being moved in a trade for the right player (top 6 scoring winger) if Parise does not sign here. Franzen's cap hit is so low because it was such a long term front loaded contract. I can't see Flip being signed for 12 years. I could see him, like Howard, taking less than his perceived market value to stay in Detroit. Even though Flip had a bad playoff, he had a very good season and showed alot of progression. The Wings have invested alot of time on him and I think they will end up re-signing him.

As for the next CBA, I am not expecting any hockey until January. With Donald Fehr heading the NHLPA, things will get nasty in a hurry when little Gary doesn't get his way. Fehr will not roll over. The players gave up so much in the last deal, I am not sure they can really give up much more. Ironically, I think the deal ended up actually favouring the players moreso than it did the owners. But that is another debate for another topic.

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4 mil may be what Howard ends up getting. It is almost double his current salary. I can see Flip being moved in a trade for the right player (top 6 scoring winger) if Parise does not sign here. Franzen's cap hit is so low because it was such a long term front loaded contract. I can't see Flip being signed for 12 years. I could see him, like Howard, taking less than his perceived market value to stay in Detroit. Even though Flip had a bad playoff, he had a very good season and showed alot of progression. The Wings have invested alot of time on him and I think they will end up re-signing him.

As for the next CBA, I am not expecting any hockey until January. With Donald Fehr heading the NHLPA, things will get nasty in a hurry when little Gary doesn't get his way. Fehr will not roll over. The players gave up so much in the last deal, I am not sure they can really give up much more. Ironically, I think the deal ended up actually favouring the players moreso than it did the owners. But that is another debate for another topic.

I don't expect a lock out, that is a nuclear option neither side can afford to use. The NHL has just started to recover from the last lockout one this soon after the last one could and probably will cause the NHL to drastically decline. If there isn't a new CBA approved ASAP I can see them doing a one year extension of the current CBA just to keep a lockout from happening, but, I think they get one done and there's a reduction in the cap limit as a result.

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keeping in mind that the Cap could very well decrease with the new CBA, so why on Earth would he offer Hudler any contract that would/could hinder him from keeping the guys he signs if indeed the Cap does go down?

If the cap decreases as per the CBA, so will players salaries proportionally.

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Guest Heaten   
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I just read some of the posts in this thread and I'm in awe at how people think Holland can just pull any player he wants out of his ass as if nobody else is going to go hard for these highly rated UFAs.

First off, from the reports I've read, I'm not feeling optimistic Parise is coming here. It sounds like there are a few up-and-coming teams willing to offer him a blank check.

What other 20 goal scorers fowards are left?

As for Suter, I don't know. Lots of teams will be gunning for him really hard.

Edited by Heaten

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I just read some of the posts in this thread and I'm in awe at how people think Holland can just pull any player he wants out of his ass as if nobody else is going to go hard for these highly rated UFAs.

First off, from the reports I've read, I'm not feeling optimistic Parise is coming here. It sounds like there are a few up-and-coming teams willing to offer him a blank check.

What other 20 goal scorers fowards are left?

As for Suter, I don't know. Lots of teams will be gunning for him really hard.

Wouldn't be the end of the world if Holland doesn't get them...there are plenty of other options to choose from after those two...

Doan, Semin, A. Kostitsyn via UFA. Perry, Iginla, Nash, J. Staal via trade if Parise doesn't come here and Carle, Jackman, O'Brien, Mitchell, Brookbank, Souray if Suter doesn't. Are they Parise and Suter? No...but they are players who are better than what we have now and would help this team tremendously! If Suter doesn't sign here, you better believe if Weber is UFA next year, Holland will be in hot pursuit again! Besides Suter may re-sign in Nashville, they do only have 11 players signed and $38M to spend! They could give both Suter and Weber $9M each and STILL have $20M to sign 10 more players...

But PLEASE Holland do not re-sign Hudler!

Edited by LeftWinger

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

I choose to be optimistic. If we don't get any of our targets then I can ***** about it...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Zach Parise ($7.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Alexander Semin ($5.000m)

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)

Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)

Travis Moen ($1.750m) / Darren Helm ($1.500m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.250m)

Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($7.500m)

Ian White ($2.875m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.250m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Josh Harding ($1.250m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,883,712; BONUSES: $37,500

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $416,288

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Guest Heaten   
Guest Heaten

Wouldn't be the end of the world if Holland doesn't get them...there are plenty of other options to choose from after those two...

Doan, Semin, A. Kostitsyn via UFA. Perry, Iginla, Nash, J. Staal via trade if Parise doesn't come here and Carle, Jackman, O'Brien, Mitchell, Brookbank, Souray if Suter doesn't. Are they Parise and Suter? No...but they are players who are better than what we have now and would help this team tremendously! If Suter doesn't sign here, you better believe if Weber is UFA next year, Holland will be in hot pursuit again! Besides Suter may re-sign in Nashville, they do only have 11 players signed and $38M to spend! They could give both Suter and Weber $9M each and STILL have $20M to sign 10 more players...

But PLEASE Holland do not re-sign Hudler!

Doan will likely retire in PHX, Semin is a glorified Hudler that will costs a lot more, Kostitsyn-LOL see Semin.

CBJ won't trade with us, Flyers have a HUGE hardon for Nash.

J,Stall will likely go to Canes'.

Perry? First I heard his name in trade talks.

Iginla, maybe but I wouldn't give up much but my guess is Flames MGMT will price him out of Detroit.

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I think I would rather go short term with Ryan Smyth then Hudler at this point. Ryan Smyth is older but still is a force around the net and not many are as good in the corners. Smyth also brings heart to the lineup. This is only an option if a true sniper cannot be had at July 1st.

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Point is, sure Holland wants Parise first and foremost....and so do many other GM's, but there are backup plans out there. As for where those guys may go, its all guessing for us...Jordan Staal will go to Canes' why, because of his brother? Is it more important to play with his brother than to make it to the playoffs every year? And why is it that everyone thinks that the 29 other GM's will price their players so high when it comes to Detroit? Is it a conspiracy?

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1339455456[/url]' post='2306687']

Point is, sure Holland wants Parise first and foremost....and so do many other GM's, but there are backup plans out there. As for where those guys may go, its all guessing for us...Jordan Staal will go to Canes' why, because of his brother? Is it more important to play with his brother than to make it to the playoffs every year? And why is it that everyone thinks that the 29 other GM's will price their players so high when it comes to Detroit? Is it a conspiracy?

What would we have to add if we offered Franzen for J Staal?

Edited by HelmFan

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What would we have to add if we offered Franzen for J Staal?

I don't have a clue...It would cost a bit more, but not too much I would think...You never know what Franzen is gonna show up, they may not even want him....

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Doan will likely retire in PHX, Semin is a glorified Hudler that will costs a lot more, Kostitsyn-LOL see Semin.

CBJ won't trade with us, Flyers have a HUGE hardon for Nash.

J,Stall will likely go to Canes'.

Perry? First I heard his name in trade talks.

Iginla, maybe but I wouldn't give up much but my guess is Flames MGMT will price him out of Detroit.

Well s*** lets all just jump off this sinking ship to the penguins. We will not get anything because our club sucks and players even hate the mention of the Detroit Red Wings. We have no chance in signing anyone. Our management sucks,our current players suck. Lids thought we sucked that's why he left. Players do not want to come to Detroit...I mean look at the city for gods sake....... :rolleyes:

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