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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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Per Dreger:

I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.

I don't see how torching the season and firing Bettman is going to solve anything at this stage. In order for there to be real traction on the negotiating front, you need to fire the leadership on both sides. Not just Bettman and Fehr, but their leadership teams as well.

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Per Dreger:

I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.

Yep I say screw the owners and screw the players, just like they screwed the fans.

And meanwhile the Red Wings have finally a chance for a top 3 pick :)

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

Per Dreger:

I don't think the NHLPA should decertify, but I'm back to the point of just saying screw it, lose the season. Fire Bettman. Burn it to the ground and start over.

I'm gonna be too pissed off to watch hockey for a while anyway.

The removal of Bettman from the sport of hockey is far more imperative than ending the NHL lockout. Even not considering the lockouts, he is the worst thing to ever happen to the sport of hockey. When he finally unlocks the doors, it will be up to us. Boycott spending money on the NHL until they have no choice but to fire him.

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Guest RedWingsDad   
Guest RedWingsDad

The removal of Bettman from the sport of hockey is far more imperative than ending the NHL lockout. Even not considering the lockouts, he is the worst thing to ever happen to the sport of hockey. When he finally unlocks the doors, it will be up to us. Boycott spending money on the NHL until they have no choice but to fire him.

I think I have a solution to the problem of Bettman's dictatorial powers... we should make him accountable to another larger group of people. He has too much power and needs to be held accountable. The group of people he is accountable to could be, oh I don't know... 30 people... kind of like one representative for each team in the league, what do you think?

.........

.........

.........

......... oh wait.

Edited by RedWingsDad

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I think I have a solution to the problem of Bettman's dictatorial powers... we should make him accountable to another larger group of people. He has too much power and needs to be held accountable. The group of people he is accountable to could be, oh I don't know... 30 people... kind of like one representative for each team in the league, what do you think?

.........

.........

.........

......... oh wait.

Are you trying to imply that Gary Bettman already is accountable to other people and that he didn't unilaterally force a lockout on the players, owners, and fans because he's a vicious little weasel who hates hockey and hates all of us? That's a novel perspective.

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If the pa had done all of those things we wouldn't be in this situation right now in my opinion.

But hypothetically, if they did and their offer was still the same and we ended up in the same situation as we are right now, then I would be satisfied with the pa and I would put all the blame on the owners.

I disagree. If the PA had started making proposals in January like the ones recently issued, I think we'd still be where we are, except the players would be much worse off. If the PA offers deals like that so early, the league would just have pushed for more. There's no way a deal gets done until both sides are up against the last deadline (i..e deal or no season). I think they will be be happy to meet in the middle on all oustanding issues, but no way either side will agree to that until they are out of time to do anything else.

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I think I have a solution to the problem of Bettman's dictatorial powers... we should make him accountable to another larger group of people. He has too much power and needs to be held accountable. The group of people he is accountable to could be, oh I don't know... 30 people... kind of like one representative for each team in the league, what do you think?

.........

.........

.........

......... oh wait.

Are you trying to imply that Gary Bettman already is accountable to other people and that he didn't unilaterally force a lockout on the players, owners, and fans because he's a vicious little weasel who hates hockey and hates all of us? That's a novel perspective.

Of course he has to answer to owners. So I guess he gets a free pass in spite of being paid over $8 million dollars to run the NHL?

Right, why should the head of the NHL be held responsible for the third lockout under his reign?

Some interesting reading:

“He’s in charge,” said Jonathon Gatehouse, whose book

“The Instigator: How Gary Bettman Remade the NHL and Changed the Game Forever,”

the first in-depth biography of Bettman, was recently published. “It has been a gradual process over 20 years and has accelerated since his victory in the last lockout.”

To make sure the disunity of 1994-95 did not happen again, Bettman engineered a change in the voting rules: if he was against a settlement, he could be overruled only by a vote of three-quarters of the owners. And he was given the power to fine any owner or team official as much as $1 million for divulging internal league matters.

Since that victory,(the 2005 lockout) Bettman’s authority has been unassailable.

Jacobs, the chairman of the Board of Governors, and Snider, who as chairman of Comcast helped secure the N.H.L.’s $200 million deal with NBC, are his strongest supporters.

“In the old days, basically the owners ran the league and almost ran it into the ground,” Snider

said last December. “Now it’s Bettman’s league. He’s a great commissioner. Basically he’s the force behind everything we do.”

I don't see how torching the season and firing Bettman is going to solve anything at this stage. In order for there to be real traction on the negotiating front, you need to fire the leadership on both sides. Not just Bettman and Fehr, but their leadership teams as well.

Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.

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I disagree. If the PA had started making proposals in January like the ones recently issued, I think we'd still be where we are, except the players would be much worse off. If the PA offers deals like that so early, the league would just have pushed for more. There's no way a deal gets done until both sides are up against the last deadline (i..e deal or no season). I think they will be be happy to meet in the middle on all oustanding issues, but no way either side will agree to that until they are out of time to do anything else.

To say that there would or would not have been traction really is just assuming at this stage. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't know how negotiations would have went if they started in January like the league wanted to do. To say that good things or bad things would have happened if they did start is just an assumption. One thing is for certain though. There was an opportunity to negotiate in January that Fehr and the players association pissed away. The fans should be upset with the PA for this purely because it was pissing away an opportunity that had potential to make a deal happen and the league to start on time if it was successful. The act of pissing away an opportunity should not go unpunished or forgiven simply because it never happened or the assumption was that it would have never bore fruit. A wasted opportunity is just that, a wasted opportunity. I will not forgive the PA for dragging their feet during these negotiations, and neither should the fan base.

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Guest RedWingsDad   
Guest RedWingsDad

Of course he has to answer to owners. So I guess he gets a free pass in spite of being paid over $8 million dollars to run the NHL?

Right, why should the head of the NHL be held responsible for the third lockout under his reign?

I didn't say he get's a free pass or comment on his wages. Obviously he has some responsibility. My heavily sarcastic comment was aimed at the seemingly never ending Bettman rage posts (like the one I was responding to) that directly assert or very strongly imply that Bettman is the sole source of the problem, a unilateral force that, upon removal, would produce perpetual sunshine and happiness in NHL land.

He doesn't act unilaterally, and his removal would not change the owners wishes. (...or the wishes of the PA for that matter)

Edited by RedWingsDad

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Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.

I think this is only the second time we have seen eye to eye on something in this thread. I agree 100% with your assessment.

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I hope the PA is really going the decertification or disclaimer of interest route so a certain guy will have seen his last lockout and go eff off another league. The players, fans and I am sure some owners are sick of him.

The NHL never intended to negotiate in good faith, like Crosby said there only negotiating has been our way or the highway. Players would be stupid to give up money and contract-rights, not gonna happen. I am sure Goodenow would have already signed a deal so I am glad Fehr is running the show now. While not without any blame he has done a masterful job so far.

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Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.

agreed

I didn't say he get's a free pass or comment on his wages. Obviously he has some responsibility. My heavily sarcastic comment was aimed at the seemingly never ending Bettman rage posts (like the one I was responding to) that directly assert or very strongly imply that Bettman is the sole source of the problem, a unilateral force that, upon removal, would produce perpetual sunshine and happiness in NHL land.

He doesn't act unilaterally, and his removal would not change the owners wishes. (...or the wishes of the PA for that matter)

agreed.

i don't think i have seen one person in this thread say that bettman should get a free pass. i am just sick of seeing all these "it's 100% bettman's fault" posts

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agreed

agreed.

i don't think i have seen one person in this thread say that bettman should get a free pass. i am just sick of seeing all these "it's 100% bettman's fault" posts

When players, fans and even owners are sick of the guy who is running the show it is time for a change. The NHL and NHLPA don't trust each other they aren't even meeting eye to eye anymore, so the best thing to do would be a restart and therefore bring in a commissioner, who at least understands the game and isn't focused on gambles in non hockeymarkets. Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.

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When players, fans and even owners are sick of the guy who is running the show it is time for a change. The NHL and NHLPA don't trust each other they aren't even meeting eye to eye anymore, so the best thing to do would be a restart and therefore bring in a commissioner, who at least understands the game and isn't focused on gambles in non hockeymarkets. Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.

If the owners were sick of him then he'd be fired.

Of course he has to answer to owners. So I guess he gets a free pass in spite of being paid over $8 million dollars to run the NHL?

Right, why should the head of the NHL be held responsible for the third lockout under his reign?

Some interesting reading:

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Unfortunately a big part of the leadership team is the law firm representing the NHL in these negotiations, which also represents all 4 major sports and was a big player in both the NBA and NFL lockout. Not coincidentally, it's the law firm that Bettman and Stern used to work for.

I would love to get rid of Bettman, Fehr, and that law firm as well .

It's starting to feel like Bettman and Stern are the two old guys in Trading Places, and they have a bet for $1 to see who can get the best deal for the owners, no matter what it does to the sport.

If the owners didn't want the voting rules changed to give Bettman more power they wouldn't have voted for it.

And most importantly of all, if the owners didn't want a lockout they wouldn't have voted for it...unanimously. Who gives a damn how much he gets paid, everything that Gary Bettman did, does, or does not do was sanctioned or is currently being sanctioned by the owners. Everything.

Edited by kipwinger

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When players, fans and even owners are sick of the guy who is running the show it is time for a change. The NHL and NHLPA don't trust each other they aren't even meeting eye to eye anymore, so the best thing to do would be a restart and therefore bring in a commissioner, who at least understands the game and isn't focused on gambles in non hockeymarkets. Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.

Restarting means firing the commissioner and the NHLPA heads. I would even like to see their deputies and counsel fired as well. You want to bring in a new method of thinking? Then you have to get rid of the existing bureaucracies.

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Also I'd love to see some play it poor owners getting their asses handed to them once the cap is gone and owners who are willing to spend are icing great teams again.

this is another thing that i don't get. people are complaining that owners are spending more than they can afford, yet when owners don't spend money to improve their team, they get blasted by fans for putting the bottom line first.

a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation with fans.

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If the owners were sick of him then he'd be fired.

If the owners didn't want the voting rules changed to give Bettman more power they wouldn't have voted for it.

And most importantly of all, if the owners didn't want a lockout they wouldn't have voted for it...unanimously. Who gives a damn how much he gets paid, everything that Gary Bettman did, does, or does not do was sanctioned or is currently being sanctioned by the owners. Everything.

For starters, I'm not sure how many voters are needed to approve a rule change like that, but yes obviously they made their bed.

As has been mentioned in the thread, Bettman only needs the support of 8 owners to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. Publicly announcing a unanimous vote for the lockout is hardly the same as all owners having strong support for it. They're not dumb enough to show weakness by casting a meaningless vote in opposition of the lockout. It would burn bridges with other owners, with Bettman, and weaken the leverage they're trying to get by locking players out in the first place.

I mention his salary because in spite of his job title as commissioner and his $8 million salary, your comments made it sound like you think he doesn't have very much say or influence over what's going on. If the owners wanted a patsy, seems like they could get one a lot cheaper.

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this is another thing that i don't get. people are complaining that owners are spending more than they can afford, yet when owners don't spend money to improve their team, they get blasted by fans for putting the bottom line first.

a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation with fans.

Case in point, look at what everyone here wanted to pay Suter to come to Detroit. I think he was vastly overpaid heading to the Wild. I would not want to hamstring my team for 10 years just to get one player. Still, you had fans here calling for Kenny's head, and they are still calling for it today for not spending a ton of money.

For starters, I'm not sure how many voters are needed to approve a rule change like that, but yes obviously they made their bed.

As has been mentioned in the thread, Bettman only needs the support of 8 owners to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. Publicly announcing a unanimous vote for the lockout is hardly the same as all owners having strong support for it. They're not dumb enough to show weakness by casting a meaningless vote in opposition of the lockout. It would burn bridges with other owners, with Bettman, and weaken the leverage they're trying to get by locking players out in the first place.

I mention his salary because in spite of his job title as commissioner and his $8 million salary, your comments made it sound like you think he doesn't have very much say or influence over what's going on. If the owners wanted a patsy, seems like they could get one a lot cheaper.

Also keep in mind that the ownership voted to give Bettman the ability to have 8 owners support him and to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. So it wasn't like Bettman just walked in and made the decision for them. The owners were fully complicit in that decision. I am sure you already know that though.

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Case in point, look at what everyone here wanted to pay Suter to come to Detroit. I think he was vastly overpaid heading to the Wild. I would not want to hamstring my team for 10 years just to get one player. Still, you had fans here calling for Kenny's head, and they are still calling for it today for not spending a ton of money.

Also keep in mind that the ownership voted to give Bettman the ability to have 8 owners support him and to overrule any decision regarding the CBA. So it wasn't like Bettman just walked in and made the decision for them. The owners were fully complicit in that decision. I am sure you already know that though.

Actually I don't already know that. You don't either.

i have no idea how exactly that vote went, how many votes it took, if it was all 30 owners, if it took a simple majority or if he needed two-thirds. The few things I've read about it just say how Bettman "engineered" a rule change so he wouldn't get overruled again like he was in 1995.

Honestly I'm just tired of blathering on about this whole thing. I'm filling the void left by hockey with obsessing over the stupid lockout. It's only making the lack of hockey worse.

f*** em all. Burn it to the ground.

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