2458 replies to this topic

[Nightfall]

What's the point in saying something is unanimous if it wasn't. To show tha the owner's are united and will hold strong? Well, if there are some owners that don't agree, why would they agree to pretent they do?

The point is that we are taking Gary's word in that they are unified. Just as when Fehr says the players are unified, you know there are some that are against what is going on. With hundreds of players, there are some people who won't stand for it. I can only imagine that 4-5 owners are going to probably be against the lockout. Illitch would be one of them.

[cusimano_brothers]

From Toronto Star:

Neither side will say they’re coming armed with a new proposal and the prospects of a new deal by Sunday are grim.

The popular thinking — as framed by the NHL — is that it is up to the players to come with a new proposal. The league made the last proposal, one that would see the players’ share of hockey related revenue drop to 47 per cent over six years. The owners want rollbacks of some sort, about 17.5 per cent in pay, in the first year of a new agreement.

The players currently get 57 per cent of hockey related revenue, which amounted to $1.87 billion last season.

A source on the players’ side said concessions are the theme of their proposals (every proposal so far has included concessions by the players) and they’re still waiting to see if the NHL makes an offer with concessions included.

If talks end badly by Sunday, some players surmise that an exodus to Europe will follow. About 60 NHLers are already over there, but the number could quickly reach into the hundreds.

[haroldsnepsts]

From Toronto Star:

I sure hope this part isn't accurate:

The owners want rollbacks of some sort, about 17.5 per cent in pay, in the first year of a new agreement.

If the owners really want the players to give that up in the first year, I think we're in for a long lockout.

Though at least now it's being called what it is, another salary rollback.

[Rivalred]

Rollbacks... Sounds like a Walmart commercial... Would make one hell of a shirt

[StevieY is the captain]

I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

[Barrie]

I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

Yea I'm expecting at least the entire season being wiped out.

This, this, this.

"Uncle Gary" lives for two things: cultivating patronage in hard-sell markets (e.g. Glendale), and lockouts. You know what lockouts are super-good for? Losing patronage in hard-sell markets.

Speaking of Glendale, I'm sure the Cardinals starting 3-0 isn't helping out the Coyotes fan base.

[Pskov Wings Fan]

If the owners really want the players to give that up in the first year, I think we're in for a long lockout.

Though at least now it's being called what it is, another salary rollback.

Unless owners agree that players share would get reduced over time without immediate cut to existing contracts I also think that new CBA would not be forthcoming any time soon.

[cusimano_brothers]

From TSN:

The NHL and NHL Players' Association ended their first session of formal talks on Friday with some traction made on non-economic issues.
Mathieu Schneider - special assistant to NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr - told reporters that progress has been made on drug testing and player health matters.

Patience, patients.

[55fan]

Oh, hurrah. We're making progress on examining their urine. Surely reconciliation is at hand.

(This has been a test of the Emergency Sarcasm System. We now return you to your regular program.)

[toby91_ca]

Oh, hurrah. We're making progress on examining their urine. Surely reconciliation is at hand.

(This has been a test of the Emergency Sarcasm System. We now return you to your regular program.)

I think there is some positives to take out of the current bargaining sessions. Why work over the weekend on lower issue items (i.e. non-economic issues) unless you really are feeling a sense of urgency?

I was just watching Hockey Central where a comment was made that his source suggested communications were made to players that they should be getting ready as big things may be happening soon. To be fair, he suggested that's what he had heard....doesn't know how much truth there is to it. It is very hard for something like that to be true because you can't say something big will happen in this type of bargaining session unless you are speaking from a side that is planning on caving to the others demands...which won't happen. Other than that, it would only be the case if agreements had already been made and not publicized yet.....which doesn't make sense.

[Johnz96]

I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

They're eventually going to return and have readjusted percentages of a much smaller pie.
But the players can't just let Bettman lock them out every time the CBA expires to get what he wants

Edited by Johnz96, 28 September 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[cusimano_brothers]

Schneider added that there were agreements on more rigorous drug testing, expanding it to parts of the year during which testing is not currently done.
Neither side sees the use of performance-enhancing drugs as a problem in the NHL.

[BottleOfSmoke]

I'm trying not to be too optimistic, but with them meeting today and more meetings scheduled for tomorrow it gives me hope that they're at least giving this more immediacy than the last lockout...I just want everything settled so I can get my giggle back (Thumb Wars fans...anyone?)

[haroldsnepsts]

NEW YORK -- Despite two sessions of negotiations and a private meeting between NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr on Friday, no progress has been made on the core economic issues of a new bargaining agreement and the likelihood any is made this weekend appears bleak.

According to NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, the league is waiting for the union to make a move before that discussion resumes.

"We really need to hear from the Players' Association," Daly said after the second session ended Friday evening. "Again, we need some kind of sign that they're prepared to compromise their economic position."

When asked why the league felt the onus was on the union to reinitiate in the form of another proposal, Daly responded:
"I don't know how many times I have to restate it. We've made at least two significant moves, significant dollars in their direction, and they haven't moved a single dollar in our direction since Aug. 4."

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8435294/2012-lockout-nhl-players-resume-talks-2-week-break-no-progress-made

So the league's strategy really does seem to be that they'd back up 100 miles, take three baby steps forward and expect the union to come their way, even though the union made concessions on their initial proposal and every one since. It's a ridiculous expectation of successfully negotiating the cba, though it explains why the NHL put forward such an unrealistic initial proposal.

It does mention that Daly is frustrated they're not talking about the core economic issues, which I agree with. Who cares about drug testing when there's this massive issue they're ignoring?

[Nightfall]

http://espn.go.com/n...o-progress-made

So the league's strategy really does seem to be that they'd back up 100 miles, take three baby steps forward and expect the union to come their way, even though the union made concessions on their initial proposal and every one since. It's a ridiculous expectation of successfully negotiating the cba, though it explains why the NHL put forward such an unrealistic initial proposal.

It does mention that Daly is frustrated they're not talking about the core economic issues, which I agree with. Who cares about drug testing when there's this massive issue they're ignoring?

I have to agree with you. Negotiating a CBA involves taking the best proposals from each side and taking small steps forward and meeting in the middle somewhere. As has been said in this thread, two sides whom have a good rapport with each other could hammer out a CBA in 2 hours. Fehr went down on his initial proposal, the NHL did not.

Now you mention that Fehr has went down on each and every proposal since the initial one, to which I am going to call you out on because there has been no evidence that Fehr has done that. There has been plenty of discussion on the initial proposals, but each subsequent proposal has not been shared in the level of depth that would bring me to conclude what you are saying. I asked for some sources from you, which you have not been able to reveal. Hell, it would be nice to hear about the subsequent proposals from the NHL as well because I have heard the NHL has come down from their unfair initial proposals with each subsequent proposal. I don't know if that is true or not though, as nothing has been revealed in the press.

One thing is certain, the NHLPA has a much more fair proposal initially. The NHL has got to back down from these crazy demands and offer something that is much more fair. Meet in the middle so to speak.

NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr pointed out, however, that bargaining does not have to follow any strict format and that the union is open to discussing such issues at any time.
"Bargaining is not ping-pong. There are no rules," Fehr said. "Whenever the parties are ready to discuss that, we can do it."

Ok, I call bullcrap on that. Bargaining is all about ping pong. The NHL said it gave ground in one of its counterproposals, to which I don't know if that is true or not. But, if true, why isn't the NHLPA giving ground? Or, is the problem more likely a disconnect or lack of trust?

I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

I think another full season is a possibility. Both sides have got to work together to make it happen. So far, I just don't get the impression that they want to work together.

Edited by Nightfall, 28 September 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[frankgrimes]

Agreed I think, this is now also a personal case for the players they want to make a statement here. Unless the owners aren't coming down to reasonable proposals or are firing this butthurt little golum, we are in for a long lockout.



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[Buppy]

I have to agree with you. Negotiating a CBA involves taking the best proposals from each side and taking small steps forward and meeting in the middle somewhere. As has been said in this thread, two sides whom have a good rapport with each other could hammer out a CBA in 2 hours. Fehr went down on his initial proposal, the NHL did not.

Now you mention that Fehr has went down on each and every proposal since the initial one, to which I am going to call you out on because there has been no evidence that Fehr has done that. There has been plenty of discussion on the initial proposals, but each subsequent proposal has not been shared in the level of depth that would bring me to conclude what you are saying. I asked for some sources from you, which you have not been able to reveal. Hell, it would be nice to hear about the subsequent proposals from the NHL as well because I have heard the NHL has come down from their unfair initial proposals with each subsequent proposal. I don't know if that is true or not though, as nothing has been revealed in the press.

One thing is certain, the NHLPA has a much more fair proposal initially. The NHL has got to back down from these crazy demands and offer something that is much more fair. Meet in the middle so to speak.



Ok, I call bullcrap on that. Bargaining is all about ping pong. The NHL said it gave ground in one of its counterproposals, to which I don't know if that is true or not. But, if true, why isn't the NHLPA giving ground? Or, is the problem more likely a disconnect or lack of trust?


I think another full season is a possibility. Both sides have got to work together to make it happen. So far, I just don't get the impression that they want to work together.

FYI: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405739 is the PAs second (and most recent) proposal. Details of the first were never all that clear, but it seems the first three years were very similar (maybe identical), but the first had a 4th year at 57% instead of the two years described in that link.

The owners initial offer was well documented, their second was reportedly mostly the same, but changed the players share to 46%. Their last offer has few details, other than it was "simplified". Revenue split is also given in the link above. However, according to Bettman, that offer was taken off the table when the lockout started so the details don't really matter.

The PA has made two proposals. The 2nd was around ~2% less than the first. (Hard to say for sure, since the players are asking for a set $ amount rather than a set %. The % will depend on actual growth.)

The owners have made 3 proposals. The last around 5% higher than the first, though really it was the only one that was at least somewhat realistic. Also, it is supposed to be off the table now.

[dirtydangles]

i dont see why its 100% up to the NHLPA to come up with the next proposal. the nhl made it clear that all past offers were off the table so the ball isn't in anyones court really.

[haroldsnepsts]

i dont see why its 100% up to the NHLPA to come up with the next proposal. the nhl made it clear that all past offers were off the table so the ball isn't in anyones court really.

Fehr made that exact point about Daly's claim it's the union's turn.

It's just part of the public relations battle to make it look like the players are the one holding things up here.

[cusimano_brothers]

Rangers forward Rick Nash, who is playing for Swiss side HC Davos, injured his shoulder on Friday in a game and will be evaluated Saturday.

Edited by cusimano_brothers, 29 September 2012 - 12:23 PM.