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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

Yea I'm expecting at least the entire season being wiped out.

This, this, this.

"Uncle Gary" lives for two things: cultivating patronage in hard-sell markets (e.g. Glendale), and lockouts. You know what lockouts are super-good for? Losing patronage in hard-sell markets.

Speaking of Glendale, I'm sure the Cardinals starting 3-0 isn't helping out the Coyotes fan base.

Z Winged Dangler and Nev like this

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If the owners really want the players to give that up in the first year, I think we're in for a long lockout.

Though at least now it's being called what it is, another salary rollback.

Unless owners agree that players share would get reduced over time without immediate cut to existing contracts I also think that new CBA would not be forthcoming any time soon.

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From TSN:

The NHL and NHL Players' Association ended their first session of formal talks on Friday with some traction made on non-economic issues.

Mathieu Schneider - special assistant to NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr - told reporters that progress has been made on drug testing and player health matters.

Patience, patients.

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Oh, hurrah. We're making progress on examining their urine. Surely reconciliation is at hand.

(This has been a test of the Emergency Sarcasm System. We now return you to your regular program.)

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Oh, hurrah. We're making progress on examining their urine. Surely reconciliation is at hand.

(This has been a test of the Emergency Sarcasm System. We now return you to your regular program.)

I think there is some positives to take out of the current bargaining sessions. Why work over the weekend on lower issue items (i.e. non-economic issues) unless you really are feeling a sense of urgency?

I was just watching Hockey Central where a comment was made that his source suggested communications were made to players that they should be getting ready as big things may be happening soon. To be fair, he suggested that's what he had heard....doesn't know how much truth there is to it. It is very hard for something like that to be true because you can't say something big will happen in this type of bargaining session unless you are speaking from a side that is planning on caving to the others demands...which won't happen. Other than that, it would only be the case if agreements had already been made and not publicized yet.....which doesn't make sense.

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I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

They're eventually going to return and have readjusted percentages of a much smaller pie.

But the players can't just let Bettman lock them out every time the CBA expires to get what he wants

Edited by Johnz96

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Schneider added that there were agreements on more rigorous drug testing, expanding it to parts of the year during which testing is not currently done.

Neither side sees the use of performance-enhancing drugs as a problem in the NHL.

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I'm trying not to be too optimistic, but with them meeting today and more meetings scheduled for tomorrow it gives me hope that they're at least giving this more immediacy than the last lockout...I just want everything settled so I can get my giggle back (Thumb Wars fans...anyone?)

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NEW YORK -- Despite two sessions of negotiations and a private meeting between NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr on Friday, no progress has been made on the core economic issues of a new bargaining agreement and the likelihood any is made this weekend appears bleak.

According to NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, the league is waiting for the union to make a move before that discussion resumes.

"We really need to hear from the Players' Association," Daly said after the second session ended Friday evening. "Again, we need some kind of sign that they're prepared to compromise their economic position."

When asked why the league felt the onus was on the union to reinitiate in the form of another proposal, Daly responded:

"I don't know how many times I have to restate it. We've made at least two significant moves, significant dollars in their direction, and they haven't moved a single dollar in our direction since Aug. 4."

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8435294/2012-lockout-nhl-players-resume-talks-2-week-break-no-progress-made

So the league's strategy really does seem to be that they'd back up 100 miles, take three baby steps forward and expect the union to come their way, even though the union made concessions on their initial proposal and every one since. It's a ridiculous expectation of successfully negotiating the cba, though it explains why the NHL put forward such an unrealistic initial proposal.

It does mention that Daly is frustrated they're not talking about the core economic issues, which I agree with. Who cares about drug testing when there's this massive issue they're ignoring?

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http://espn.go.com/n...o-progress-made

So the league's strategy really does seem to be that they'd back up 100 miles, take three baby steps forward and expect the union to come their way, even though the union made concessions on their initial proposal and every one since. It's a ridiculous expectation of successfully negotiating the cba, though it explains why the NHL put forward such an unrealistic initial proposal.

It does mention that Daly is frustrated they're not talking about the core economic issues, which I agree with. Who cares about drug testing when there's this massive issue they're ignoring?

I have to agree with you. Negotiating a CBA involves taking the best proposals from each side and taking small steps forward and meeting in the middle somewhere. As has been said in this thread, two sides whom have a good rapport with each other could hammer out a CBA in 2 hours. Fehr went down on his initial proposal, the NHL did not.

Now you mention that Fehr has went down on each and every proposal since the initial one, to which I am going to call you out on because there has been no evidence that Fehr has done that. There has been plenty of discussion on the initial proposals, but each subsequent proposal has not been shared in the level of depth that would bring me to conclude what you are saying. I asked for some sources from you, which you have not been able to reveal. Hell, it would be nice to hear about the subsequent proposals from the NHL as well because I have heard the NHL has come down from their unfair initial proposals with each subsequent proposal. I don't know if that is true or not though, as nothing has been revealed in the press.

One thing is certain, the NHLPA has a much more fair proposal initially. The NHL has got to back down from these crazy demands and offer something that is much more fair. Meet in the middle so to speak.

NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr pointed out, however, that bargaining does not have to follow any strict format and that the union is open to discussing such issues at any time.

"Bargaining is not ping-pong. There are no rules," Fehr said. "Whenever the parties are ready to discuss that, we can do it."

Ok, I call bullcrap on that. Bargaining is all about ping pong. The NHL said it gave ground in one of its counterproposals, to which I don't know if that is true or not. But, if true, why isn't the NHLPA giving ground? Or, is the problem more likely a disconnect or lack of trust?

I dont think the players are bluffing this time around and Buttmen wont budge either. The Owners want money and until checkbooks are hit hard I dont see either side giving up an inch. I think we will see a long lockout, mabye 2 seasons. Players can go to Europe and make money so the pressing need of ending the lockout will only hurt 3-4 liners, prospects, and us as fans. (aside from economics)

I think another full season is a possibility. Both sides have got to work together to make it happen. So far, I just don't get the impression that they want to work together.

Edited by Nightfall

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Agreed I think, this is now also a personal case for the players they want to make a statement here. Unless the owners aren't coming down to reasonable proposals or are firing this butthurt little golum, we are in for a long lockout.

Sent from my BlackBerry

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I have to agree with you. Negotiating a CBA involves taking the best proposals from each side and taking small steps forward and meeting in the middle somewhere. As has been said in this thread, two sides whom have a good rapport with each other could hammer out a CBA in 2 hours. Fehr went down on his initial proposal, the NHL did not.

Now you mention that Fehr has went down on each and every proposal since the initial one, to which I am going to call you out on because there has been no evidence that Fehr has done that. There has been plenty of discussion on the initial proposals, but each subsequent proposal has not been shared in the level of depth that would bring me to conclude what you are saying. I asked for some sources from you, which you have not been able to reveal. Hell, it would be nice to hear about the subsequent proposals from the NHL as well because I have heard the NHL has come down from their unfair initial proposals with each subsequent proposal. I don't know if that is true or not though, as nothing has been revealed in the press.

One thing is certain, the NHLPA has a much more fair proposal initially. The NHL has got to back down from these crazy demands and offer something that is much more fair. Meet in the middle so to speak.

Ok, I call bullcrap on that. Bargaining is all about ping pong. The NHL said it gave ground in one of its counterproposals, to which I don't know if that is true or not. But, if true, why isn't the NHLPA giving ground? Or, is the problem more likely a disconnect or lack of trust?

I think another full season is a possibility. Both sides have got to work together to make it happen. So far, I just don't get the impression that they want to work together.

FYI: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405739 is the PAs second (and most recent) proposal. Details of the first were never all that clear, but it seems the first three years were very similar (maybe identical), but the first had a 4th year at 57% instead of the two years described in that link.

The owners initial offer was well documented, their second was reportedly mostly the same, but changed the players share to 46%. Their last offer has few details, other than it was "simplified". Revenue split is also given in the link above. However, according to Bettman, that offer was taken off the table when the lockout started so the details don't really matter.

The PA has made two proposals. The 2nd was around ~2% less than the first. (Hard to say for sure, since the players are asking for a set $ amount rather than a set %. The % will depend on actual growth.)

The owners have made 3 proposals. The last around 5% higher than the first, though really it was the only one that was at least somewhat realistic. Also, it is supposed to be off the table now.

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i dont see why its 100% up to the NHLPA to come up with the next proposal. the nhl made it clear that all past offers were off the table so the ball isn't in anyones court really.

Fehr made that exact point about Daly's claim it's the union's turn.

It's just part of the public relations battle to make it look like the players are the one holding things up here.

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Scott Gomez, Joey Crabb, and Nate Thompson have all signed with the Alaska Aces of the ECHL. Um....there are no waiver requirements like the AHL here? If not, I wonder why no Wings that are complaining about wanting to stay home near family aren't going to Toledo (Helm comes to mind).

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FYI: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405739 is the PAs second (and most recent) proposal. Details of the first were never all that clear, but it seems the first three years were very similar (maybe identical), but the first had a 4th year at 57% instead of the two years described in that link.

The owners initial offer was well documented, their second was reportedly mostly the same, but changed the players share to 46%. Their last offer has few details, other than it was "simplified". Revenue split is also given in the link above. However, according to Bettman, that offer was taken off the table when the lockout started so the details don't really matter.

The PA has made two proposals. The 2nd was around ~2% less than the first. (Hard to say for sure, since the players are asking for a set $ amount rather than a set %. The % will depend on actual growth.)

The owners have made 3 proposals. The last around 5% higher than the first, though really it was the only one that was at least somewhat realistic. Also, it is supposed to be off the table now.

Thanks for providing the source.

One thing is for certain, the owners did come off of their lowball offer. Who knows if that offer is off the table or not. Lets say that they went up 5%. That would mean that instead of 57-43 in favor of the owners, it would be 52-48 in favor of the owners. The NHLPA has also come down a bit as well as you said. They should be continuing to bargain back and forth until a deal is met. They have already come down a good amount over what they started with. I guess neither side wants to come down much more than they already have.

i dont see why its 100% up to the NHLPA to come up with the next proposal. the nhl made it clear that all past offers were off the table so the ball isn't in anyones court really.

This is a good point. I forgot about that little tidbit of information. Still, Fehr could be the bigger man here and come forward with a proposal at this stage. Its readily apparent that the ownership isn't going to man up in this situation and try to play the public relations game instead. The NHLPA could score some big points in public relations by coming to the table on Sunday with a new proposal.

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Rangers forward Rick Nash, who is playing for Swiss side HC Davos, injured his shoulder on Friday in a game and will be evaluated Saturday.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the whole insurance thing.

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NHL Players' Association head Donald Fehr and NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman held a second round of private talks Saturday in an effort to move closer to an agreement that would end the ongoing lockout.

Clarifications as to what will fall under the umbrella of hockey-related revenue going forward in the next agreement dominated discussions Saturday. No concrete resolutions were made, and the topic could be revisited on Sunday.

"I am not sure if we have identified discrepancies," NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said. "I think the nature of what we were trying to do today was to create certainty on interpretations we've had over seven years of this CBA operation.

"The whole process is a bit complicated when you're trying to define revenue streams and what should be in and what should be out (of hockey-related revenue)," Steve Fehr said. "It's a bit complicated between the fact that their most recent economic offer says they will go back to the current definitions, yet they are seeking some changes or clarifications in what the current definitions are."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=406365

Great, so they're still trying to agree on what exactly happened during the last CBA? And they're still not even working with a fixed definition of HRR, which is ridiculous. How can you negotiate divvying up the pot when you haven't even determined how big the pot is?

The league's position still appears to be that they're waiting for a counterproposal from the union with "meaningful" concessions, in response to the league's offer before the deadline.

Though Bettman made quiet clear that proposal was off the table after the deadline, so I'm confused. Is the league saying that offer is still on the table? Or are they waiting for the union to respond to a proposal that's no longer valid?

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What's the point in saying something is unanimous if it wasn't. To show tha the owner's are united and will hold strong? Well, if there are some owners that don't agree, why would they agree to pretent they do?

It could be because after his '95 lockout, Bettman got the voting rules changed so it took three quarters of the owners to overrule him (23 out of 30), instead of the more than half that overruled him in 1995. If he has the support of 8 owners, there's no overruling him.

Why cast a vote against something when you know it will only burn bridges with other owners and the commissioner, but won't actually accomplish anything?

Bettman has already shown how vindictive he can be with his own ownership. A few years back the Rangers didn't want the league to run their team website and filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the NHL. Bettman countersued and threatened punishment ranging from fining the franchise, suspending it, or even forcing ownership to sell it.

After the '95 lockout resulted in salvaging a half season of hockey because the owners overruled him, Bettman managed to consolidate his power while squelching dissent, being able to fine the owners up to $1 million for divulging internal league matters. We saw what the Red Wings just got hit with because of Jimmy D's comments.

http://www.nytimes.c...rcer.html?_r=2

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One thing is for certain, the owners did come off of their lowball offer. Who knows if that offer is off the table or not. Lets say that they went up 5%. That would mean that instead of 57-43 in favor of the owners, it would be 52-48 in favor of the owners. The NHLPA has also come down a bit as well as you said. They should be continuing to bargain back and forth until a deal is met. They have already come down a good amount over what they started with. I guess neither side wants to come down much more than they already have.

I believe neither of the NHLPA offers had a rollback of existing contracts in it. As far as I understand players are very much against it (to the point of Ovechkin stating that he is not coming back from KHL if his contract if not honored in full). I think if NHL continues to insist on immediate salary rollback we might not see NHL hockey for a while.

On the other hand KHL hockey is not that bad. At least they make a difference between regulation and overtime/shootout wins and losses. TV production quality is not up to NHL's standard. But Datsyuk plays for a team (CSKA) where Sergei Fedorov is GM.

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I believe neither of the NHLPA offers had a rollback of existing contracts in it. As far as I understand players are very much against it (to the point of Ovechkin stating that he is not coming back from KHL if his contract if not honored in full). I think if NHL continues to insist on immediate salary rollback we might not see NHL hockey for a while.

On the other hand KHL hockey is not that bad. At least they make a difference between regulation and overtime/shootout wins and losses. TV production quality is not up to NHL's standard. But Datsyuk plays for a team (CSKA) where Sergei Fedorov is GM.

I agree with you. The NHLPA should not have to rollback existing contracts. They should be paid.

I think I am going to sub to hockeystreams.com for KHL action this season. Hell, its $99, but at least I will catch a lot of hockey action this season.

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The league's position still appears to be that they're waiting for a counterproposal from the union with "meaningful" concessions, in response to the league's offer before the deadline.

Though Bettman made quiet clear that proposal was off the table after the deadline, so I'm confused. Is the league saying that offer is still on the table? Or are they waiting for the union to respond to a proposal that's no longer valid?

This is why you can't take everything the press says for face value. Maybe the last proposal by the league is still valid. Maybe it isn't. There is so much information that the public is not privy to. Which is why taking sides is tough to do.

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