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Guest The Axe

Howard = Average

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Given that he is the NHL's statistical leader over the past two months, I'd say that he has indeed done an ELITE job during that span.

Stats don't matter when you get pulled, scored on 4 times on 19 shots, and put it in your own net 2 times in one game. Stats do matter when you do none of that , which he did exactly last week. Last week he didn't mess up and played like he's a future hall of famer.

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled.

Edited by kickazz

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He's shown otherwise lately. Let's see how he holds up when it counts!!!

I would find it even a little refreshing if you would just admit that you jumped the gun and you made a mistake instead of saying "well, we will see how he does now".

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Stats don't matter when you get pulled, scored on 4 times on 19 shots, and put it in your own net 2 times in one game. Stats do matter when you do none of that , which he did exactly last week. Last week he didn't mess up and played like he's a future hall of famer.

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled.

what i don't get, while we rip into howard, is that the elites do the same darn thing. Bad games. Get pulled. Turn overs that lead to goals. but for some reason we ignore that (as do all sport fans when they singling out a player...it's almost like selective hearing) and magnify howard's common goalie mistakes...just to justify an argument. or to justify why he's a lower tier. but if quick does it? he gets a pass. lundqvist? pass. rinne? pass. now schneider get's all over these passes (and he has made some boo-boo's this season too).

We call these inconsistencies with howard. the other goalies? they are mistakes. I keep reading them here, and over at HFboards....but the double standard doesn't add up/make sense. Does Howard have another set of rules? But what does make sense is the overall season, correct? Why do people judge a player on their mistakes, then call them average..., and these are few,, but in the same breath ignore the many, MANY, awesome feats them have pulled for the team this season? It's like..."you messed up once howard, you turned over the puck and those are inconsistencies I do not tolerate!" " What? Other elite goalies do it too? Oh, those are just gaffs on their part..., you cannot be inconsistent!"

Howard: ....... Save % .923 "Is that good enough" ..."No! You are average because of a few bad games, howard. Accept it!"

Blown out proportion? Yea...but it sure as hell seems that Howard has to play the puck like Brodeur, or better. Post .920+ every game. 10+SO. If the Wings cannot score more than 2 goals? Who cares...Howard better get us to the 3rd round or better or he's just average at best...

i would only call one goalie elite, and that's Lundqvist...and he's even made the gaffs that Howard has over his career...many-a-times. Honestly? If we are sitting here tearing apart a goalie we got in howard...a .consistent .920+ goalie (one season aside)...we could always get bryz, as people still consider him a top 10 goalie and howard barely a top 20, sometimes he doesn't even crack top 25.

wingsfan4795, Ally and dobbles like this

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Stats don't matter when you get pulled, scored on 4 times on 19 shots, and put it in your own net 2 times in one game. Stats do matter when you do none of that , which he did exactly last week. Last week he didn't mess up and played like he's a future hall of famer.

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled.

Rask, quick, Luongo, Schneider, lundqvist and price all had their fair share of bad games too.

Over the course of a full season, stats DO matter. It proves that he has had enough great games to make up for those bad games.

Nobody is arguing that he had no bad games this year, they are arguing that he has been WELL over average over the course of the whole year.

I'm one of the biggest Howard lovers out there, and I'll admit that he cannot be called "elite" yet, but I think will get there in the near future (starting with a Cinderella cup run maybe?) and I think he is well above average

sjr2012 likes this

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If you go over to the Anaheim board, they're all a little nervous about facing Howard, and give him the edge in the series. In fact, there's a lot of pessimism over at the Duck HFboards. They're fans and root for the Ducks of course, but I don't see any 4,5, or 6 game predictions in their favor over there.

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Stats don't matter when you get pulled, scored on 4 times on 19 shots, and put it in your own net 2 times in one game. Stats do matter when you do none of that , which he did exactly last week. Last week he didn't mess up and played like he's a future hall of famer.

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled.

Believe it or not, even the best goalies on the planet have terrible games from time to time. I'll give you some examples from the past two months of other goalies:

Bobrovsky: five goals allowed on 24 shots on 3/28 vs Edmonton; four goals allowed on 11 shots on 3/23 against Nashville

Rask: five goals allowed on 28 shots on 3/27 vs Montreal; four goals allowed on 26 shots against on 3/3 vs Montreal and 3/5 vs Washington

Schneider: five goals allowed on 30 shots on 4/28 vs Dallas; four goals allowed on 26 shots on 4/13 vs Colorado

Lundquist: four goals allowed on 28 shots on 4/19 vs Buffalo and 4/8 vs Toronto

Niemi: four goals allowed on 18 shots on 3/16 vs L.A.; four goals allowed on 26 shots on 4/9 vs Columbus

And so on. Does this help to put things into perspective for you? Further, your implication that Howard put the puck into his own net twice vs Calgary is incorrect. The first goal was the fault of Ericsson and dumb luck, and the second was the product of a giveaway.

Edited by Crymson

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Stats don't matter when you get pulled, scored on 4 times on 19 shots, and put it in your own net 2 times in one game. Stats do matter when you do none of that , which he did exactly last week. Last week he didn't mess up and played like he's a future hall of famer.

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled.

The greatest HoF goalies have had bad days and bad plays

Opie likes this

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He's shown otherwise lately. Let's see how he holds up when it counts!!!

Its "counted" for the last two weeks and weve seen how strong he is.

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ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled.

Elite Goalies do make mistakes and they do cost their teams games, even playoff games:

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/12/red_wings_statue_of_liberty_go.html

Sometimes it is a stupid play, sometimes it is trying to make a play they shouldn't, and sometimes it is Just being too arrogant:

Patrick Roy, Martin Broduer, even Terry Sawchuck have all been pulled over their career. Hell the time Roy should have been pulled in Montreal is the reason he wanted out of Montreal. He gave up 9 goals(to the Wings) and the team left him in. After finally being pulled he said I want the F**K out of here, in his own words of course.

The point: even elite goalies (Which Howard is not yet) give up bad goals and get pulled.

To quote Forrest Gump:

"It happens"

"What?, s***?"

"Yes"

Edited by Opie

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The greatest HoF goalies have had bad days and bad plays

Then you have Broduer letting in a goal off a clearing attempt from the other side of the ice in game 6 of the cup finals in 2003.

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I would find it even a little refreshing if you would just admit that you jumped the gun and you made a mistake instead of saying "well, we will see how he does now".

I did that already. I said that he has been the elite of the elite in the 2nd half. Do I have to buy a jersey or something?

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I did that already. I said that he has been the elite of the elite in the 2nd half. Do I have to buy a jersey or something?

Yes. And wear it.

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Howard isn't average (in baseball terms average to me is replacement level), but hes not Vezina worthy either. Just by his stats all season, hes what I would consider middle tier, and near the top of it. He would be a starter on ~15 teams over their current starter.

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Howard isn't average (in baseball terms average to me is replacement level), but hes not Vezina worthy either. Just by his stats all season, hes what I would consider middle tier, and near the top of it. He would be a starter on ~15 teams over their current starter.

middle tier? 2.13gaa .923 sv% top 10 in every goalie category, what does the guy have to do to gain some peoples respect? land on the moon?

you take away the sloppy start to the season and he has been the best goalie in the league. his last 30 games have definitely been vezina worthy

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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what i don't get, while we rip into howard, is that the elites do the same darn thing. Bad games. Get pulled. Turn overs that lead to goals. but for some reason we ignore that (as do all sport fans when they singling out a player...it's almost like selective hearing) and magnify howard's common goalie mistakes...just to justify an argument. or to justify why he's a lower tier. but if quick does it? he gets a pass. lundqvist? pass. rinne? pass. now schneider get's all over these passes (and he has made some boo-boo's this season too).

We call these inconsistencies with howard. the other goalies? they are mistakes. I keep reading them here, and over at HFboards....but the double standard doesn't add up/make sense. Does Howard have another set of rules? But what does make sense is the overall season, correct? Why do people judge a player on their mistakes, then call them average..., and these are few,, but in the same breath ignore the many, MANY, awesome feats them have pulled for the team this season? It's like..."you messed up once howard, you turned over the puck and those are inconsistencies I do not tolerate!" " What? Other elite goalies do it too? Oh, those are just gaffs on their part..., you cannot be inconsistent!"

Howard: ....... Save % .923 "Is that good enough" ..."No! You are average because of a few bad games, howard. Accept it!"

Blown out proportion? Yea...but it sure as hell seems that Howard has to play the puck like Brodeur, or better. Post .920+ every game. 10+SO. If the Wings cannot score more than 2 goals? Who cares...Howard better get us to the 3rd round or better or he's just average at best...

i would only call one goalie elite, and that's Lundqvist...and he's even made the gaffs that Howard has over his career...many-a-times. Honestly? If we are sitting here tearing apart a goalie we got in howard...a .consistent .920+ goalie (one season aside)...we could always get bryz, as people still consider him a top 10 goalie and howard barely a top 20, sometimes he doesn't even crack top 25.

I posted my comment in response to that fellow Crymson who magnified Howard as the best thing ever. I was playing the devil's advocate as anyone would when someone takes such a biased approach in discussions.

Of course people know elite goalies have they're fair share of mishaps. Remember Patrick Roy's statue of liberty fail? Anyways, goalies they don't go down in the hall of fame unless they have a consistent track record after many many many years of playing. I myself actually considered Howard elite this past week and this past week only. The past 2 months I considered him great. It's FAR too early to judge Howard in his career. There's a lot of folks on these forums that tend to give players too much credit than they deserve. I like taking a neutral standpoint and approaching cautiously and not judge someone too fast. I'm no Howard hater, as I don't believe most Wings fan are. But I'm not going to give all my hopes to someone who has yet to play in the playoffs and perform well. Playoffs haven't even started and people are giving Howard hall of fame treatment. Think with an open mind before judgments are made.

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Why are you guys even feeding the trolls? This thread was started as a means to troll, now it's been commandeered by another troll.

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middle tier? 2.13gaa .923 sv% top 10 in every goalie category, what does the guy have to do to gain some peoples respect? land on the moon?

you take away the sloppy start to the season and he has been the best goalie in the league. his last 30 games have definitely been vezina worthy

He's not Vezina worthy. Craig Anderson and Cory Crawford have him beat by a lot. As for his stats, hes still middle tier, hes the #1 in the middle tier, but, hes still middle tier.

PS don't conflate middle tier with average. An average goalie would be a bottom tier starter in my mind.

Edited by Shaman464

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Rask, quick, Luongo, Schneider, lundqvist and price all had their fair share of bad games too.

Over the course of a full season, stats DO matter. It proves that he has had enough great games to make up for those bad games.

Nobody is arguing that he had no bad games this year, they are arguing that he has been WELL over average over the course of the whole year.

I'm one of the biggest Howard lovers out there, and I'll admit that he cannot be called "elite" yet, but I think will get there in the near future (starting with a Cinderella cup run maybe?) and I think he is well above average

Exactly my point. People here are acting as though Howard is ELITE. He's not. And it's far too early to judge him in his career. Howard is a great goalie. He still has things to prove to us. I'm not going to sit back and act as though he's all set and his super duper eliteness is going to lead the way to the cup. For instance, I've been a huge Datsyuk and Zetterberg fan since 03 season when they played with Brett Hull. Did I consider them elite players 3-4 years into their career? Hell no! My respect for Datsyuk and Zetterberg only increased after many many years of their work ethic and devotion being shown to the team. I was further inclined to accept them as somewhat elite players by the time they won the cup in 08 with pure effort as well as Datsyuk's multiple Selke trophies these past few years. It took me a DECADE to consider them SOMEWHAT elite. Even to this day I STILL think Datsyuk and Zetterberg have more to prove to me and to fans. Zetterberg is a new captain and he especially has more to prove.

The point is, Howard did a great job. Let's not get carried away and treat him and any one else on the team like hall of famers until we see the cup in Detroit again.

Remember folks, Steve Yzerman became famous when he scored the double OT winner against St Louis. That wasn't till almost over 10 seasons after he was in the league.

Edited by kickazz

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I did that already. I said that he has been the elite of the elite in the 2nd half. Do I have to buy a jersey or something?

Nope but you have to change your avatar pic to howard =)

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Believe it or not, even the best goalies on the planet have terrible games from time to time. I'll give you some examples from the past two months of other goalies:

Bobrovsky: five goals allowed on 24 shots on 3/28 vs Edmonton; four goals allowed on 11 shots on 3/23 against Nashville

Rask: five goals allowed on 28 shots on 3/27 vs Montreal; four goals allowed on 26 shots against on 3/3 vs Montreal and 3/5 vs Washington

Schneider: five goals allowed on 30 shots on 4/28 vs Dallas; four goals allowed on 26 shots on 4/13 vs Colorado

Lundquist: four goals allowed on 28 shots on 4/19 vs Buffalo and 4/8 vs Toronto

Niemi: four goals allowed on 18 shots on 3/16 vs L.A.; four goals allowed on 26 shots on 4/9 vs Columbus

And so on. Does this help to put things into perspective for you? Further, your implication that Howard put the puck into his own net twice vs Calgary is incorrect. The first goal was the fault of Ericsson and dumb luck, and the second was the product of a giveaway.

Actually most of those numbers aren't that bad compared to 4 goals on 19 shots. The only one that's really bad is Niemi against LA. As far as Bobrovsky, as I've said before, he played with a subpar actually below average roster, whereas Howard played with a decent above average roster/defense.

Here's something to put into perspective for you. Patrick Roy and his failed statue of liberty attempt. One of the funniest things he's done and laughed at. The same Patrick Roy also won a Conn Smyth trophy, 3 stanely cups and is in the hall of fame. He is elite.

Howard has not won any awards yet, he hasn't even been to a cup finals. He's STILL young and has a LONG way to go in his career. He is NOT elite YET. Right now, he's GREAT goalie establishing a good track record. All you can do is hope he continues to excel and earn the elite status.

Let's not give Howard more credit than he deserves. Not yet at least. Postseason is yet to start tonight.

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Actually most of those numbers aren't that bad compared to 4 goals on 19 shots. The only one that's really bad is Niemi against LA. As far as Bobrovsky, as I've said before, he played with a subpar actually below average roster, whereas Howard played with a decent above average roster/defense.

Here's something to put into perspective for you. Patrick Roy and his failed statue of liberty attempt. One of the funniest things he's done and laughed at. The same Patrick Roy also won a Conn Smyth trophy, 3 stanely cups and is in the hall of fame. He is elite.

Howard has not won any awards yet, he hasn't even been to a cup finals. He's STILL young and has a LONG way to go in his career. He is NOT elite YET. Right now, he's GREAT goalie establishing a good track record. All you can do is hope he continues to excel and earn the elite status.

Let's not give Howard more credit than he deserves. Not yet at least. Postseason is yet to start tonight.

You said this "

Stats don't matter when you get pulled, scored on 4 times on 19 shots, and put it in your own net 2 times in one game. Stats do matter when you do none of that , which he did exactly last week. Last week he didn't mess up and played like he's a future hall of famer.

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting puck into your own net and getting pulled."

Which could be the equivalent of

"Stats don't matter when you allow 9 goals on 26 shots and quit the team because of it, when you actually (which Howard didn't actually) put the puck in your own net (Statue of Liberty)

ELITE status doesn't comprise putting the puck into your own net and getting pulled multiple times.

ps. A goalie doesn't win a Cup a team does.

There have been many goalies as good as Roy that will never get recognized for it because they didn't have the opportunities he had, playing for the teams he played for.

Edited by Johnz96

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How about we lock this thread? Jimmy started slow, mostly due to rust, and ended up STELLAR! Second season starts tonight, let's hope he rides this confidence and continues to stand on his head.

Go Jimmy, go Red Wings!

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Remember folks, Steve Yzerman became famous when he scored the double OT winner against St Louis. That wasn't till almost over 10 seasons after he was in the league.

Not quite.

Won the Lester B. Pearson in 1988-89 season.

All rookie team in 1984.

Second in Calder voting.

First 18-year-old to play in the All-Star game.

In 1989, I had an NHL stars poster in my dorm room which included Chelios, Savard, Gretz, Lemieux, and Yzerman, among others.

All this was long before Yzerman scored that winner against St. Louis.

EDIT: Fixed a typo

Edited by Serratoni

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Howard has a top 5ish season out of goalies in the NHL this season. Tied for the lead in shutouts, was amongst the games played leaders (hes a workhorse), very high save percentage, great GAA (team stat but still) and had no help from back ups. Look at the stats of back up goalies of goalies that you think were better and look at Howards help he had. Its not close.

I wouldnt say elite, but well above average number 1. If he has another season like this one youre looking at a guy you can call one of the elite NHL goalies

WINGS TILL DEATH likes this

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