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BleedRed&White25

nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM

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Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though? You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously. I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board. You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well.

As I pointed out in my post, they don't really have any more depth than we do. Sharp's been out almost half the year, Hossa missed 7. Saad, Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Shaw... none of them are really any better than what we have, none of them have as many goals as Brunner, and only Saad matches Franzen. More likely I think is that Kane and Toews add more to those guys than those guys add to Kane and Toews.

Upgrading a couple of our forwards to Sharp and Hossa level would help, I'm sure. But I wouldn't expect it to double Pav and Hank's output. Particularly not if the one's you upgrade are Franzen and Filppula, as you'd likely need to do to make it work under the cap.

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A Chicago Detroit comparison is laughable at this stage. Night and day talent disparity at forward and their defense is better than ours currently. I think our d has a lot more potential than theirs, tho.

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As I pointed out in my post, they don't really have any more depth than we do. Sharp's been out almost half the year, Hossa missed 7. Saad, Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Shaw... none of them are really any better than what we have, none of them have as many goals as Brunner, and only Saad matches Franzen. More likely I think is that Kane and Toews add more to those guys than those guys add to Kane and Toews.

Upgrading a couple of our forwards to Sharp and Hossa level would help, I'm sure. But I wouldn't expect it to double Pav and Hank's output. Particularly not if the one's you upgrade are Franzen and Filppula, as you'd likely need to do to make it work under the cap.

The Wings have 9 negative forwards to The Hawks' 1. In fact the Hawks as a whole have only 2 negative players, the Wings, 12. I know +/- isn't a perfect indicator of a player's talent level but it does reflect something about their effort on the ice which gets bitched about A LOT on here. Chicago's roster kills us in +/- and it's not because of PP goals. Maybe we wouldn't need a ton of scoring if guys weren't getting outskated, outworked and losing puck battles that end up in the back of their net. This is why people might say their depth is "better" than ours.

esteef

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Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though?

Seems more likely to me that Toews and Kane are star players in their prime, rather than star players past their prime like Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

Although it is a fair point that Hossa-Sharp is ahead of Franzen-Filpulla as the 3-4 punch, even if they have been injured.

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Fix it in the off season or retire or fired. I don't care which, he didn't 'reload' like so many times before. The past 3 years have been unbearable to watch as a Wings fan.

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Fix it in the off season or retire or fired. I don't care which, he didn't 'reload' like so many times before. The past 3 years have been unbearable to watch as a Wings fan.

I believe it comes down to not the "willingness" to reload but the "ability" to reload. The salary cap has prevented the Wings from doing that like they have in the past. Oh, and if you think the past 3 years have been "unbearable", just wait. Its going to get worse before it gets better.

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They had all the cap room in the world this summer. Holland tried (and failed) for Parise and Suter, but where he really missed the ball was his total disinterest in Semin. Semin with Datsyuk would have us in the playoffs right now.

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I believe it comes down to not the "willingness" to reload but the "ability" to reload. The salary cap has prevented the Wings from doing that like they have in the past. Oh, and if you think the past 3 years have been "unbearable", just wait. Its going to get worse before it gets better.

More FALSEness. The Wings play with the same cap as the other teams. Its just that other teams spend money on great players and fill in the rest of the lineup with their low paid young guys. We sign a bunch of old, crappy guys and let our prospects waste away.

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More FALSEness. The Wings play with the same cap as the other teams. Its just that other teams spend money on great players and fill in the rest of the lineup with their low paid young guys. We sign a bunch of old, crappy guys and let our prospects waste away.

I believe what he was saying is that the cap takes away the advantage of spending more than most other teams. In the past we could trade away picks and prospects to acquire proven talent without having to worry about fitting them under the cap, and still go after any UFA we liked. That isn't possible anymore.

Now, we have to keep our young players, since as you say we need them to fill out the roster. Now we have to compete with a lot more teams for UFAs, and there are fewer of them to go around as well.

It's not a matter of how we're spending money; it's acquiring those "great players" in the first place.

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I believe what he was saying is that the cap takes away the advantage of spending more than most other teams. In the past we could trade away picks and prospects to acquire proven talent without having to worry about fitting them under the cap, and still go after any UFA we liked. That isn't possible anymore.

Now, we have to keep our young players, since as you say we need them to fill out the roster. Now we have to compete with a lot more teams for UFAs, and there are fewer of them to go around as well.

It's not a matter of how we're spending money; it's acquiring those "great players" in the first place.

But to act like we just realized this is silly. Its been that way for a while now. Remember the talk about the Devils not being able to ice a full team with the Kovulchuk deal? This "era" didn't just manifest itself yesterday. Holland is not performing. He needs to be replaced.

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I believe it comes down to not the "willingness" to reload but the "ability" to reload. The salary cap has prevented the Wings from doing that like they have in the past. Oh, and if you think the past 3 years have been "unbearable", just wait. Its going to get worse before it gets better.

We had and will have cap. Room. He didn't have to sign Sammy or cola. And this off season he has two buyouts. He can make cap room and there's trades that can be made.

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But to act like we just realized this is silly. Its been that way for a while now. Remember the talk about the Devils not being able to ice a full team with the Kovulchuk deal? This "era" didn't just manifest itself yesterday. Holland is not performing. He needs to be replaced.

No one is "just realizing" anything. Acquiring top talent has always been hard, and has become even more so in the cap era. Yet you seem to think that even now a competent GM should be able to replace any that's lost, and add more to compensate for any decline from those still around, all without any drop in team performance.

When the GM you think are good now have all rebuilt their teams on the fly, without any "down" years...then you can say Holland should have done better. For now, you have nearly 100 years of NHL history telling you that your expectations aren't reasonable.

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No one is "just realizing" anything. Acquiring top talent has always been hard, and has become even more so in the cap era. Yet you seem to think that even now a competent GM should be able to replace any that's lost, and add more to compensate for any decline from those still around, all without any drop in team performance.

When the GM you think are good now have all rebuilt their teams on the fly, without any "down" years...then you can say Holland should have done better. For now, you have nearly 100 years of NHL history telling you that your expectations aren't reasonable.

Holland is not signing goal scorers. We need some.

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No one is "just realizing" anything. Acquiring top talent has always been hard, and has become even more so in the cap era. Yet you seem to think that even now a competent GM should be able to replace any that's lost, and add more to compensate for any decline from those still around, all without any drop in team performance.

When the GM you think are good now have all rebuilt their teams on the fly, without any "down" years...then you can say Holland should have done better. For now, you have nearly 100 years of NHL history telling you that your expectations aren't reasonable.

The thing is this, since the cap has been in place Holland HAS signed good players and goal scorers. However, in the past 4 years he has not. What is attributing to this? Unwilling to play for the Wings? or perhaps it's the not willing to pay for said players? Regardless of which, its up to our GM to sign the appropriate players to fill the voids where they are needed. Ken Holland has not done so in the past 4 years, and continues to make excuses for why he doesn't. I like our team or it's cause of injuries doesn't cut it in this league. Especially in our division...

Why did he resign Franzen over Hossa? Unwilling to pay 7 million for Hossa seems pretty cheap in the long run.

Also, he has had cap space available to make moves and has made the WRONG ones. Quincey, White, Cleary, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, Huskins, Commodore, Conner, Brunnstrom, MacDonald, Minard, Johnson, Parkes, Newbury, Williams, Ehrhardt, Delmore, Jason Williams and May all in the last 3 years and some of them haven't even stepped on the ice for the Wings!

I don't like where we are heading, and if he can't fix it soon I don't want him here anymore. What he did for us over the past 16 years has been great, but not all of that was done in his tenure. He's been good at times but bad at others. I think it's just time for somebody else to take the reigns. Jim Nill needs a shot.

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Why did he resign Franzen over Hossa? Unwilling to pay 7 million for Hossa seems pretty cheap in the long run.

I believe we were in a huge cap-crunch. It mattered a lot at the time. Even ignoring the whole argument of whether he should have known Hossa was the better choice, the Wings couldn't afford that.

Edited by Zetts

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But to act like we just realized this is silly. Its been that way for a while now. Remember the talk about the Devils not being able to ice a full team with the Kovulchuk deal? This "era" didn't just manifest itself yesterday. Holland is not performing. He needs to be replaced.

Yes, and that is why Holland has kept hold of almost all his draft picks since 2006, because he knows you need a constant pipeline of good, young, cheap players coming through.

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Yes, and that is why Holland has kept hold of almost all his draft picks since 2006, because he knows you need a constant pipeline of good, young, cheap players coming through.

We don't play any of them, so who cares?

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We don't play any of them, so who cares?

Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...

It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?

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Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...

It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?

What type are you serious? Do you not see our nhk and ahl team full of pass first euro playmakers?

Its nice to have some don't get me wrong but it can't be your entire team!!! I do however love our defense now and in the future. Our defense has changed from what it is used to be. Time for the forwards.

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Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...

It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?

Drafting is always dicey. No way to tell for sure after the first few picks. I think the problem lies with Holland not being able to land Praise.

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Drafting is always dicey. No way to tell for sure after the first few picks. I think the problem lies with Holland not being able to land Praise.

It wasn't Hollands fault. Him and illitch went after him and Sumter hard.

Hollands problem was putting all his eggs in one basket. I'm more pissed about not going for semin. There was no harm in a one year deal to get him. Instead we get Cola and Sammy and give him a ntc.

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It wasn't Hollands fault. Him and illitch went after him and Sumter hard.

Hollands problem was putting all his eggs in one basket. I'm more pissed about not going for semin. There was no harm in a one year deal to get him. Instead we get Cola and Sammy and give him a ntc.

Carolina was the single team willing to take a chance on Semin. It's not as if Holland was the only one who passed on the guy.

Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...

It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?

Yes, you DO keep harping about that. If that's the standard by which you're measuring GMs, then the 28 other GMs who also overlooked Lucic in the first round suck also?

News: size does not guarantee success. There are plenty of large players who have failed to make it.

What type are you serious? Do you not see our nhk and ahl team full of pass first euro playmakers?

I get the feeling that you know very little about who is in the pipeline. If you think that even Nyquist and Tatar are pass-first players, then you haven't been watching at all.

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I'm talking only stars or suppose to be stars. And the bigger name guys you always hear about are typically pass first euro players. Tatar is an exception but I honestly never really heard much about him like I did with jarnkrok, Nyquist DAT z etc etc.

And guys like sheahan are obviously not pass first euros but they're not predicted to be stars.

But I also don't follow the wings prospects as close as most. The ones I follow are the bigger named ones you hear about which right now from the way I understand it are oullet, Sproul, mrazek, jarnkrok, and patterson. And I think jurco is to but not sure and I don't really consider Nyquist or Tatar on that list cause they both should be in NHL full time right now. And I know I'm forgetting a few but I think you get the idea.

Edited by DeGraa55

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We don't play any of them, so who cares?

Emmerton, Kindl, Nyquist, Smith, Andersson. Plus Brunner and DelKaiser. Tatar and Lashoff too. Is 8 good, young, cheap players not enough for you?

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