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BleedRed&White25

nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM

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Would you rather he sell the farm to get a couple rentals?

This cliche is about as overused here as "I like our team".

It's also interesting that you left LA out of that list you made of teams that made big moves (Carter, Richards, etc), and yet they won the Cup because of them and are still looking good this year. Chicago has recovered quite nicely from their after-Cup fire sale to be a top contender again and Pittsburgh barely gave up anything for their "rentals" this year. I would say those GMs have done a nice job.

esteef

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The fact that they are going through a major rebuild and still making the playoffs every year says something about Kenny and the management staff.

The Oilers are going through a major rebuild as well:

Last place in 2010

Last place in 2011

29th place in 2012

Would you rather go through that?

Also, last summer our D looked like it would be the worst in the league, but then Kenny managed to sign some guys who have really helped us out, and he showed off his draft skills again. (Colaiacovo has been really solid in the games he's played and dekeyser looks good as well. Kindl and lashoff have both proved to be surprisingly good draft picks)

The Oilers aren't rebuilding, because they have nothing to rebuild from.

We've had a good core the last few years, but Holland has let the pieces around it dwindle without adding anything of value.

We do have some decent young players, but Datsyuk and Zetterberg are current stars, whose careers I'm afraid will wind down on an average team. Do you think when they retire, guys like Nyquist and Tatar will be stars on their level? I don't.

The real rebuilding will start when Pavel and Z (or either of them) finish their careers. Then we can start to suck. Now, we can be better than this.

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The Oilers aren't rebuilding, because they have nothing to rebuild from.

We've had a good core the last few years, but Holland has let the pieces around it dwindle without adding anything of value.

We do have some decent young players, but Datsyuk and Zetterberg are current stars, whose careers I'm afraid will wind down on an average team. Do you think when they retire, guys like Nyquist and Tatar will be stars on their level? I don't.

The real rebuilding will start when Pavel and Z (or either of them) finish their careers. Then we can start to suck. Now, we can be better than this.

Z and D have 3 or 4 more in them. I wouldn't abandon ship just yet.

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Z and D have 3 or 4 more in them. I wouldn't abandon ship just yet.

Datsyuk probably has like 1 or 2 in him.

I don't expect Holland to do anything significant during the offseason or next year's deadline. The prices are unlikely to go down and he's still too bullheaded to get with the program.

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This cliche is about as overused here as "I like our team".

It's also interesting that you left LA out of that list you made of teams that made big moves (Carter, Richards, etc), and yet they won the Cup because of them and are still looking good this year. Chicago has recovered quite nicely from their after-Cup fire sale to be a top contender again and Pittsburgh barely gave up anything for their "rentals" this year. I would say those GMs have done a nice job.

esteef

I left out LA because they won't be in a cap crunch, LA did a good job of getting good talent at a low cost, Pittsburgh gave up draft picks in a deep draft, but moreso put themselves in a position that they have to unload cap in the summer. That is what I am reffering to, the teams that made big trades for a cup run, but won't be able to hold on to them because of the cap going down, which is the position we would have been in had we traded for someone

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My rankings are

Holland > Shero > Chiarelli > Poile > Stevie

Do I think Holland is perfect? No way, but which GM is? Hollands hands are tied, because the league is an absolute joke and embarrassment under the current office stuff and owners are blind enough, to keep these non-hockey-guys employed.

I think not trading White and filps at the deadline was a mistake and if Filps walks for nothing in the summer, missed chance in a deep upcoming draft. Holland is damn smart and still the best GM but honestly, I think he should move up in the organization and by that time Stevie should be ready to replace him.

btw. nhl.com is still blocked not going to give their site traffic thanks to the lockout.

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I left out LA because they won't be in a cap crunch, LA did a good job of getting good talent at a low cost, Pittsburgh gave up draft picks in a deep draft, but moreso put themselves in a position that they have to unload cap in the summer. That is what I am reffering to, the teams that made big trades for a cup run, but won't be able to hold on to them because of the cap going down, which is the position we would have been in had we traded for someone

I'd rather have a lot of good pieces and worry about which ones to shed than have to go overpay and be outbid for players who may or may not even be what we need or want. Which is what Kenny has done lately.

esteef

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I still think he's the best gm... By far.

A lot of posters here think he is on the decline because he hasn't landed a lot of big name free agents/trades but think about this:

29 teams didn't land parise or suter

29 teams didn't land semin

29 teams didn't get bouwmeester

29 teams didn't land Justin Schultz.......

Holand did manage to land Brunner and dekeyser who both look very promising.

Most teams' rebuilds look like Edmonton's or Calgary's or buffalo's. Holland managed to construct a major rebuild without even missing the playoffs (hopefully), and he kept our prospect pool intact. (He strengthened it if you consider dekeyser a prospect.

Good job Kenny!

I think that Brunner signed here because Babs was very high on him.

DeKe is a huge Red Wings fan so I guess it was an easy decision/call which he had to make.

My rankings are

Holland > Shero > Chiarelli > Poile > Stevie

Do I think Holland is perfect? No way, but which GM is? Hollands hands are tied, because the league is an absolute joke and embarrassment under the current office stuff and owners are blind enough, to keep these non-hockey-guys employed.

I think not trading White and filps at the deadline was a mistake and if Filps walks for nothing in the summer, missed chance in a deep upcoming draft. Holland is damn smart and still the best GM but honestly, I think he should move up in the organization and by that time Stevie should be ready to replace him.

btw. nhl.com is still blocked not going to give their site traffic thanks to the lockout.

This

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I'd rather have a lot of good pieces and worry about which ones to shed than have to go overpay and be outbid for players who may or may not even be what we need or want. Which is what Kenny has done lately.

esteef

Agree to disagree I suppose, while I do agree Kenny has made some questionable signings, I like that we are rebuilding and still within reach of a playoff position, and with a deep draft upcoming I am happy he didn't trade our picks away anyways. We all would love to see the wings win another cup, but I would rather it not come at the expense of our teams future. Nyquist is looking great, Tatar had a great run, Sheahan will be a great physical grinder. We have Frk, Pulkinin, Jurco, Sproul, Ouellet, Mrazek, Patterson and others in the pipeline that could potentially be stars one day, so I like the way our future team could look.

Edited by Euro_Twins

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Was this article posted on April 1st?

Was it in the satire section?

Ken Holland.....and the phrase "best GM".....should have a minimum 3-sentence separation, required by law. (Which I just broke).

The parity of this league means that with shrewd management, any team can win in any year. Ken Holland has let this team crumble, afraid to do anything of significance, and a could-have-been dynasty has been reduced to the rubble of mediocrity.

There is no more "rebuilding" in this league, save for the horrendous cases (Edmonton). In any given year, a team can make a few shrewd moves and win. If Holland was as good as people say he is, given the core we had, we should've been MORE successful. Pointing to the team's success and saying, "well, it was still better than most" is a cop-out to the fact that it should've been better.

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Agree to disagree I suppose, while I do agree Kenny has made some questionable signings, I like that we are rebuilding and still within reach of a playoff position, and with a deep draft upcoming I am happy he didn't trade our picks away anyways. We all would love to see the wings win another cup, but I would rather it not come at the expense of our teams future. Nyquist is looking great, Tatar had a great run, Sheahan will be a great physical grinder. We have Frk, Pulkinin, Jurco, Sproul, Ouellet, Mrazek, Patterson and others in the pipeline that could potentially be stars one day, so I like the way our future team could look.

For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

Edited by esteef
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For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

Like I said, we can agree to disagree, we both have our opinions, and we are both too stubborn to change them :)

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Huh, woke up this morning to see that the Wings lost their playoff spot and are now in 9th.

Kenny is the bestest.

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Like I said, we can agree to disagree, we both have our opinions, and we are both too stubborn to change them :)

I love that about this place!!

I side with esteef, though. Holland's recent track record is a lot of money on a lot of mediocre players. I think most would rather see a lot of money on a few all stars. All the excuses in the world can be made for Holland, but he FAILED this past off season. Semin, Carole, Parise, and Suter went elsewhere. Pittsburgh just landed Morrow and Iginla. Dekeyser is a great free bee, but he wanted to be here. Not Kenny's play there. D- to Holland over last 3 years.

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I love that about this place!!

I side with esteef, though. Holland's recent track record is a lot of money on a lot of mediocre players. I think most would rather see a lot of money on a few all stars. All the excuses in the world can be made for Holland, but he FAILED this past off season. Semin, Carole, Parise, and Suter went elsewhere. Pittsburgh just landed Morrow and Iginla. Dekeyser is a great free bee, but he wanted to be here. Not Kenny's play there. D- to Holland over last 3 years.

ya but your post sort of contradicts itself, Dekeyser is great but he wanted to be here, well suter and parise wanted to be in minnesota...

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If I see another post about Holland's "failure" to sign Parise/Suter I'm going to light my eyes on fire.

Parise wanted to go home. Suter is in love with Parise and didn't want to do long distance.

Not Kenny's fault.

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For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

So who would be the best?

There isn't a GM in the league that has faced the kind of losses we have and done any better at staying competetive. Most haven't been around long enough to try rebuilding on the fly and/or never even built a team successful enough in the first place.

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So who would be the best?

There isn't a GM in the league that has faced the kind of losses we have and done any better at staying competetive. Most haven't been around long enough to try rebuilding on the fly and/or never even built a team successful enough in the first place.

everyone points to pittsburgh, but they fail to remember what that team was before he who shall not be named came into the picture, when they were almost bankrupt...

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The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work.

If people are going to credit him for the old system's success, then you can give credit to Shero for constructing a team for the new system.

Holland has been an abject failure since the cap was implemented; I refuse to credit the 2008 championship to him considering something close to 60% of that team was Hakan Andersson finds.

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The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work.

If people are going to credit him for the old system's success, then you can give credit to Shero for constructing a team for the new system.

Holland has been an abject failure since the cap was implemented; I refuse to credit the 2008 championship to him considering something close to 60% of that team was Hakan Andersson finds.

The new system had nothing to do with Shero constructing his team in fact Ray Shero had little to do with constructing that team, being terrible for a long period of time constructed that team for him. He took over a team that had selected in the top 5, 5 years in a row, with 4 of them being in the top 2. The biggest adversity he's had to face was a problem of his own making when he had to trade Staal away because he couldn't fit all his top 5 picks under the salary cap. Let's see him rebuild the team when those players start retiring, and have him do so without the luxury of having any top 15 draft picks and without missing the playoffs. Maybe then he can start being compared to Holland.

Also if Holland doesn't get any credit for the teams draft choices because he employs a scout who recommends which players to pick, then no team's GM should ever get credit for a draft choice. They all employ scouts.

Below is a list of players drafted while Holland was in charge of amateur scouting. If I follow your logic Holland should get credit for the cups in 97, 98 and 2002 since he drafted the core of those teams. He also made several trades in those years that provided key parts to those cup winning teams.

Yves Racine

Sheldon Kennedy

Mike Sillinger

Nicklas Lidstrom

Sergei Fedorov

Dallas Drake

Vladimir Konstantinov

Keith Primeau

Slava Kozlov

Jason York

Martin Lapointe

Jamie Pushor

Chris Osgood

Mike Knuble

Darren McCarty

Dan McGillis

Anders Eriksson

Mathieu Dandenault

Tomas Holmstrom

Holland is the best GM in the history of the franchise, arguably the best in the history of the NHL, and a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Fame Inductee.
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Holland shouldn't be discredited as having nothing to do with the Red Wings winning ways, but I wouldn't put him at the top for credit.

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For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

So he needs to rebuild the farm for the first time in 20 years AND spend assets on the present? And it's entirely his fault when there aren't many good free agents---an effect of the CBA---and when extra considerations spur the two of note to another team? And he must do all of this is a system that constantly works against consistent success?

The guy isn't perfect, but you're arguing that his performance needs to reside in the realm of the miraculous. You should consider lowering your expectations.

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The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work.

Then by your definition, there is one good GM and the rest of them are terrible. That's an odd way of seeing things.

If people are going to credit him for the old system's success, then you can give credit to Shero for constructing a team for the new system.

The Red Wings have still, to this day, had more playoffs success in the post-lockout era than any other team. While the Wings have won only one Cup, Holland has been the only GM able to maintain momentum from before the lockout through six seasons afterward.

Ray Shero did not construct the current Penguins team; and if you're using the Pens as an example of how to build a team in the salary cap era, then you are advocating a course of action by which a team should be terrible for several seasons in order to garner lottery draft picks. Shero inherited Malkin, Crosby, and Fleury from the Pens' long stretch in the doghouse, and upon entering office promptly had the 2nd-overall pick to spend on Staal. To sum up, Shero started off with two of the top five forwards on the planet in his system at entry-level salaries, amongst others. He inherited a team that also already included Orpik, Talbot, Malone, Whitney, Gonchar, Letang, Kenneday and Scuderi. He traded Whitney for Kunitz, yes, and he fleeced Niuewendyk in the deal for Neal. But other than that, his moves as GM have not been very noteworthy, and not a single one of his draft picks (Staal excepted) has yet made an impact in the NHL. And whatever the case, the core for his team's success was absolutely, indisputably in place already when he took the job as GM in 2006.

Holland has been an abject failure since the cap was implemented; I refuse to credit the 2008 championship to him considering something close to 60% of that team was Hakan Andersson finds.

I'm not sure what else to do but shake my head at this.

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Holland has done great things for the Red Wings there is no doubting that. But he has also failed to land a sniper for the last three seasons. Hossa should have been signed. The Red Wings have a fairly deep prospect pool and I am sure a couple of those guys could have been moved to land a player that can put the puck in the net. Holland at times could be better but I am sure that you could say that about 29 other GM's

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