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sjr2012

Who do we Unload, reload on before the season starts?

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Guys everyone knows who we would like to get rid of and that is Sammy BUT he is going no where No one wants him we are stuck with him we might as well face it our only hope is we can put him on long term injury but he is healthy right now so that's out for now

We will end up sending a few guys down that we all want and need to play and maybe get rid of Eaves also. We are almost in this desperate situation

I wouldn't really call it a "desperate" situation. I'm sure a lot of NHL GM's (if not all of them) would love to find themselves in a position where they have 16 proven capable NHL forwards on their roster.

I know that most here can't stand that they are still on the team but when/if healthy, Bertuzzi and Samuelsson provide a lot more than the players that are currently on "the bubble". They add size to a relatively small crop of forwards, can skate on the 2nd line and PP if needed, and before being derailed by injuries they were coming off of seasons where they produced at a .5 point per game clip. Samuelsson also has that right handed shot that the Red Wings seem to covet, and Bertuzzi is clutch in shootuts where the Red Wings lost quite a few extra points this past season. Samuelsson also had some chemistry during his short stint in Florida playing alongside Weiss.

Emmerton, Eaves and Tootoo all bring their own elements to the team, and are useful in the right situations, it doesn't seem like the team finds that valuable enough to give them cemented roles within their 12 regular forwards. All three have been passed on the depth chart by Andersson, Nyquist and Miller, and have become expendable in the teams eyes. You also have the variable of Tatar being out of waiver exemption and I'm sure after his stock rose in the AHL playoffs, the team will give him one of the 14 spots to see what he can do at full time NHL duty.

It appears that the Red Wings have 12 forwards that have pretty much cemented spots on the 23 man roster when the season opens. It pretty much looks like this:

1. Datsyuk

2. Zetterberg

3. Alfredsson

4. Weiss

5. Franzen

6. Abdelkader

7. Helm (if healthy)

8. Samuelsson

9. Bertuzzi

10. Miller

11. Andersson

12. Tatar

For the last two spots, it'll be a battle between Eaves, Emmerton, Tootoo and possibly Nyquist. Obviously, Nyquist should be somewhere between 7-9 on the depth chart, but the "luxury" of him being waiver exempt might mean that he'll have to start the season in GR while Holland waits for the opportunity to unload another forward.

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I don't like the situation as much as you don't, but I was just looking at it from the most realistic perspective. With the new CBA, it is going to be almost impossible to clear Samuelsson and Bertuzzi from the 23 man roster without coughing up valuable cap space needed for the 23 players that would actually be ON the roster. They can't be bought out, can't be buried on LTIR (unless of course they face another longterm injury), and I doubt they would be easy to trade, even if they did waive their NTC's.

Because of the situation, Holland and Babcock are going to have to take the lemons they have and make lemonade this season.

I like Emmerton too, but it's really not hard to see that he is probably the most expendable forward they have. I doubt many teams want to give anything up for him, since the 29 other teams will probably have a couple of young guys out of minor league options, or a couple of camp tryouts that could give them what Emmerton offers without having to give up any draft picks or prospects.

I have my money on the notion that if Helm is ready to go and Holland can't find a way to unload a couple of forwards via trade, Emmerton will be first on the waiver wire. It's a crappy gamble to take given that Emmerton probably still has some upside, but when the deadline to get to 23 comes around, Holland may not have any other options. If he does get claimed, he won't be hard to replace. Capable 4th line centers are a dime a dozen and the Red Wings have two centers in GR that could probably fill Emmertons shoes on a call up if needed, in Sheahan and Ferraro. In fact, given what the organization is saying about him and the fact that he has scored one less AHL goal in 130 games than Emmerton did in 217, Ferraro is probably following in the same path that Emmerton did to the big club and may even have more upside.

Not sure what you mean about the Wings taking "ages" with all of the players you mentioned...

Mursak followed the pretty standard path to the pros. Drafted and then spent two more years in juniors, then got the standard three waiver exempt seasons in the AHL where his junior numbers failed to really convert. When his waiver exemption was up he was pretty much given a spot as a #13/14 forward on the big club in the hopes that his speed could turn him into a useful bottom-6 forward. He was given two NHL seasons to make his mark, but couldn't stay healthy and didn't seem able to handle the physical aspects of the game. Got waived and no one was interested. Now he's in the KHL. The team didn't throw in the towel, he just didn't cut it at the NHL level.

-Total time spent: 7 years

-Total effort: Same as any other player

-Total Money: Not much (in the grand scheme of things)

-Loss to the team: Minimal if none at all. Unless he has some miraculous turn around in the KHL, we have probably seem the last of Mursak in the NHL. I doubt the Wings will ever look back and say "Gee, I wish we would've waived Emmerton instead..."

Kopecky is probably the only one that fits your bill of "resources" used, but the team didn't throw in the towel. Like Mursak he got the usual two years in junior after being drafted, then got his three waiver exempt seasons in GR. His offensive game from junior didn't translate whatsoever to the AHL, and he struggled to even stay in the lineup in GR. Probably due to his projectable size, the Wings decided to give him one more shot in GR to see if they could translate his game into a physical game. He was able to turn it around playing on a line with Hudler and Filppula, scoring almost a point per game and added some size and an edge to his game. He was given a spot on the 23 man roster than was his to lose, until he missed significant time with an injury. He established himself as a useful bottom-6 forward and spent two more seasons with Detroit, before deciding to leave as a UFA to follow his friend and countryman Marian Hossa to Chicago. IIRC, the Red Wings were interested in re-signing him, but he really wanted to go with Hossa.

-Total time spent: 9 years

-Total effort: Probably no different than any other player

-Total Money: Not much

-Loss to the team: In a summer where the team also lost top 6 forwards Hossa and Samuelsson, Kopecky wasn't really a huge blow. His game has seemed to develop more and he has been more productive since his departure. I'm sure if the need and opportunity opened up, the Wings wouldn't mind getting him back, but I doubt they are beating themselves up over not making a bigger effort to re-sign him.

Tomas Fleischmann is a completely different story. He wasn't even in the Red Wings system for two years after being drafted, and hadn't even made it to the pros yet, before the Wings used to his rights to aqcuire a player that they had an immediate need for at the deadline. Robert Lang was at the time they acquired him, the leading scorer in the NHL and the team had a glaring hole at center they wanted to fill after the departure of Sergei Fedorov. Ultimately not knowing exactly what Fleischmann would bring to the club, he was a good sacrifice to make at the time.

-Total time spent: Less than 2 years

-Total effort: Not much at all

-Total money: Probably almost none

-Loss to the team: Not huge. Obviously Flieschmann has gone on to become a very good top 6 winger and Lang really never become an integral part of the team after 2.5 seasons. The Red Wings smartly made the sacrifice because they had a glut of forwards in their system and had a need to address. The blow was probably softened when two forwards in Fleischmann's draft class ended up becoming very good players for the Wings in Hudler and Filppula. Like Kopecky, I'm sure if the need and opportunity arose, I'm sure the team wouldn't mind adding Fleischmann, but I'm sure they aren't kicking themselves for trading him for a player that filled an immediate need and gave them 40g and 119pts in 159 games.

Ritola was similar to Mursak except that due to a good standing with the cap and a crowded roster, he wasn't gifted a spot on the team. Spent two more (actually real bad) years in Sweden after being drafted and then spent his three waiver exempt seasons in GR after signing his EL deal. After not really doing anything noteworthy in GR, the Red Wings still thought he might be able to add something to team in a bottom six role and signed him to a new deal after his waiver exemption was up. There was even talk from the Wings that summer that he would be given a spot as a #13/14 forward and make Drew Miller the odd man out. Ultimately Drew Miller proved to be a better option and the team also had 13 other forwards that they deemed better than Ritola. The teams only option was to waive him, where he was claimed by Tampa Bay. The Lightning gave him a spot to start the season, but he failed to impress in 5 games, so he once again him the waiver wire but went unclaimed. He actually lit it up after being assigned to the AHL with 27pts in 17 games. He was again given a spot to start with the big club the next year, but again failed to show anything substantial in 5 more games. After being waived and unclaimed again, Ritola refused to go to the AHL for a 5th season, and agreed to terminate his NHL contract to go back to Sweden, where he has been for the last two seasons.

-Time spent: A little over 5 years

-Effort spent: No more than any other player

-Money spent: Not much

-Loss to team: None whatsoever. At the time he waived, the Wings had 14 better forward on their roster. They were also compiling some pretty decent forwards in their system, and had Emmerton and Mursak ready to get looks at the NHL level. Ritolas skill never translated to the AHL or NHL game, and he ultimately never panned out. He's still relatively young at 26 and could turn his game around in Sweden and make a return to the NHL. That being said, at this point in his career, I doubt the Red Wings have any regret over waiving him when they did.

I don't think the Red Wings really put much more time and effort into players than any other team does. Unless they are a college player, you basically get five years after they are drafted to try and make them a useful player. After than five years, they run out of waiver exemption and their entry level deals will be coming to an end. Because of the 23man roster limit, 50man reserve limit, waivers, more young players entering the system every year and the need to ice a competitive roster, it's hard for teams to wait around for young players to turn into anything more than what they have become when those five years are up.

While he is still relatively young and may still have some upside, on paper and to all 29 other GM's in the league, Emmerton is nothing more than an average 4th line or #13/14 forward. There are lots of them in the league, and lots of teams have them in their systems. I like him and it'll suck to see him go, but sometimes this is how things go in this business.

Great analysis. Nothing personal about the nos earlier.

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I think the salary retention's going to be key. I still think Nyquist will end up signing for around $1m or maybe a little over for 1 year. If it is $1m, that means the Wings need to shed around $700k in salary to get back under the cap. Trading Tootoo by himself & retaining the max 50% of the contract does that for them along with an extra $250k. The more critical piece of the equation is getting rid of bodies more so than salary.

True. That is also not accounting for whatever salary opens up from whatever second player gets trimmed as well. I only wonder if Holland is reluctant to retain any of Tootoos salary for 14-15 when he will most likely already have a handicap from Alfredssons deferred bonuses and will need cap space next summer to re-sign/replace Alfredsson, Quincey, Ericsson, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Gustavsson, DeKeyser, Eaves, Tatar and Emmerton. Might make more sense to trade/waive Emmerton and Eaves, and carry Tootoo as an extra forward and rotate him into the lineup when they need him against some of the more physical teams. Then, if they still don't want him next summer they can use their last compliance buyout on his last year without having anything negatively affect their cap for 14/15. One thing to also consider with Tootoo, is that depending on what continued improvement he has in GR next season, Mitch Callahan might be ready to step into a similar spot as a part time agitator. However, he'll probably be playing for league minimum which will be less than 1/3rd what Tootoo will be making in 14/15.

Great analysis. Nothing personal about the nos earlier.

None taken. As you can see by that mammoth post, I rather enjoy engaging in these discussions...

Edited by DSM

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True. That is also not accounting for whatever salary opens up from whatever second player gets trimmed as well. I only wonder if Holland is reluctant to retain any of Tootoos salary for 14-15 when he will most likely already have a handicap from Alfredssons deferred bonuses and will need cap space next summer to re-sign/replace Alfredsson, Quincey, Ericsson, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Gustavsson, DeKeyser, Eaves, Tatar and Emmerton. Might make more sense to trade/waive Emmerton and Eaves, and carry Tootoo as an extra forward and rotate him into the lineup when they need him against some of the more physical teams. Then, if they still don't want him next summer they can use their last compliance buyout on his last year without having anything negatively affect their cap for 14/15. One thing to also consider with Tootoo, is that depending on what continued improvement he has in GR next season, Mitch Callahan might be ready to step into a similar spot as a part time agitator. However, he'll probably be playing for league minimum which will be less than 1/3rd what Tootoo will be making in 14/15.

IMO some of the players you listed won't be resigned, starting with Sammy, Bert, Eaves, & Emmerton because the next wave from GR will be ready, specifically Ferraro & Sheahan. Granted, some of them may be gone sooner. Wouldn't be surprised if Monster's gone too. I think Quincey might be expendable as well because signing Ericsson will be the priority, you've got cheaper & hopefully still developing options in Kindl & Lashoff locked up, & they'll have Almquist potentially ready to move up as well. Kind of frustrating that the Wings have too many bodies to fit on their roster over the next couple to few years but really exciting too.

Basically, I think that the salary cap will be less of an issue in 2014-15 & beyond because we should start to see younger, cheaper options starting to hit from the prospect pool.

Edited by ogreslayer

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Nashville doesn't have a Back-up signed yet. Maybe we could send them maybe we send them Tootoo, Quincey, and monster for a decent young defenseman??

Sending off those three players would clear over 7M in cap space, minus what we pay the guy they sent us.

Leaving plenty of room to sign a backup (Thomas :tounge: ) or bring up Mrazek. Then sign Nyquist.

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Nashville doesn't have a Back-up signed yet. Maybe we could send them maybe we send them Tootoo, Quincey, and monster for a decent young defenseman??

Sending off those three players would clear over 7M in cap space, minus what we pay the guy they sent us.

Leaving plenty of room to sign a backup (Thomas :tounge: ) or bring up Mrazek. Then sign Nyquist.

I'm not sure Mrazek is ready for the big show, and Howard can't play the percent of games he did last year in a full season, but I still wouldn't be averse to sending off Monster and a forward or two for picks/prospects if it gets us out or roster hell in the forward department. The only issue would be finding someone who would make that trade.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Mrazek. I like what I saw in the limited time in which I saw it.

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The only issue would be finding someone who would make that trade.

Or to make any trade with us at all.

Teams could just sit around, and wait to see who we try to pass through waivers, and then pick up players w/o having to give us anything in return.

haroldsnepsts likes this

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Or to make any trade with us at all.

Teams could just sit around, and wait to see who we try to pass through waivers, and then pick up players w/o having to give us anything in return.

True words.

The only thing that might prompt a trade is if they're wanting a specific role filled or want a specific player. That's still doubtful.

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IMO some of the players you listed won't be resigned, starting with Sammy, Bert, Eaves, & Emmerton because the next wave from GR will be ready, specifically Ferraro & Sheahan. Granted, some of them may be gone sooner. Wouldn't be surprised if Monster's gone too. I think Quincey might be expendable as well because signing Ericsson will be the priority, you've got cheaper & hopefully still developing options in Kindl & Lashoff locked up, & they'll have Almquist potentially ready to move up as well. Kind of frustrating that the Wings have too many bodies to fit on their roster over the next couple to few years but really exciting too.

Basically, I think that the salary cap will be less of an issue in 2014-15 & beyond because we should start to see younger, cheaper options starting to hit from the prospect pool.

Oh absolutely. That's why I used "re-sign/replace", since anyone who isn't resigned will need to be replaced, whether it's from within or outside sources.

-Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Eaves and Gustavsson are probably pretty much gone. Alfredsson could retire. Emmerton will be an RFA, but obviously if the team thinks he can be replaced or that they'd have a hard time moving him once he's resigned, they can decline a qualifying offer.

-The Quincey situation will be interesting... Obviously Ericsson seems to be the more valuable of the two, but Quincey currently makes more.

-I doubt Sheahan will get a spot on the big club for 14/15 unless he shows big improvement in GR this season, or they know he'll be playing a big role. He'll have one more waiver exempt season after this one, and he'd probably be best kept in GR until his options are out.

-Almquist, Ferraro and Callahan are all out of minor league options after '13-14 and it seems they may have the fast track on any small role opening for '14/15.

-Howard has now proven that he can handle a big workload and should be expected to start 60+ games a year. After Gustavsson is gone, they could probably get away with using an experienced and cheap journeyman backup in the ilk of Conklin (the first time), Mason, McElhinney, Joey MacDonald etc. That way Mrazek can keep playing and developing in GR.

-I've also gotta think that with all of the cap space opening up after this next season and the potential retirement of Alfredsson, Holland will probably try to go after a big name in the UFA market next summer. Vanek? Pominville? Ryan Callahan? Michalek? Timonen? Thornton? Marleau? Boyle? Kessel? Phaneuf? Sedin(s)?

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The Wings can't buy him out now. The compliance buyout period ended on July 4th. So now they are going with him the whole way unless Sammy is injured OR he agrees to a trade.

If the Wings used a regular buyout wouldn't it make his cap hit 2 mil this year and they buy him out over this year and next?

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Oh absolutely. That's why I used "re-sign/replace", since anyone who isn't resigned will need to be replaced, whether it's from within or outside sources.

-Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Eaves and Gustavsson are probably pretty much gone. Alfredsson could retire. Emmerton will be an RFA, but obviously if the team thinks he can be replaced or that they'd have a hard time moving him once he's resigned, they can decline a qualifying offer.

-The Quincey situation will be interesting... Obviously Ericsson seems to be the more valuable of the two, but Quincey currently makes more.

-I doubt Sheahan will get a spot on the big club for 14/15 unless he shows big improvement in GR this season, or they know he'll be playing a big role. He'll have one more waiver exempt season after this one, and he'd probably be best kept in GR until his options are out.

-Almquist, Ferraro and Callahan are all out of minor league options after '13-14 and it seems they may have the fast track on any small role opening for '14/15.

-Howard has now proven that he can handle a big workload and should be expected to start 60+ games a year. After Gustavsson is gone, they could probably get away with using an experienced and cheap journeyman backup in the ilk of Conklin (the first time), Mason, McElhinney, Joey MacDonald etc. That way Mrazek can keep playing and developing in GR.

-I've also gotta think that with all of the cap space opening up after this next season and the potential retirement of Alfredsson, Holland will probably try to go after a big name in the UFA market next summer. Vanek? Pominville? Ryan Callahan? Michalek? Timonen? Thornton? Marleau? Boyle? Kessel? Phaneuf? Sedin(s)?

Wouldn't it be something if Alfie re-signed for another year & somehow Kenny landed the Sedins in 2014? Team Sweden West indeed. I really don't think there's a snowball's chance but how pissed off would other fan bases be if they did?

Rick D likes this

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True. That is also not accounting for whatever salary opens up from whatever second player gets trimmed as well. I only wonder if Holland is reluctant to retain any of Tootoos salary for 14-15 when he will most likely already have a handicap from Alfredssons deferred bonuses and will need cap space next summer to re-sign/replace Alfredsson, Quincey, Ericsson, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Gustavsson, DeKeyser, Eaves, Tatar and Emmerton. Might make more sense to trade/waive Emmerton and Eaves, and carry Tootoo as an extra forward and rotate him into the lineup when they need him against some of the more physical teams. Then, if they still don't want him next summer they can use their last compliance buyout on his last year without having anything negatively affect their cap for 14/15. One thing to also consider with Tootoo, is that depending on what continued improvement he has in GR next season, Mitch Callahan might be ready to step into a similar spot as a part time agitator. However, he'll probably be playing for league minimum which will be less than 1/3rd what Tootoo will be making in 14/15.

None taken. As you can see by that mammoth post, I rather enjoy engaging in these discussions...

Me too! And i will get back to u later when im at a computer. Im limited to atta-boys on my phone.

Wouldn't it be something if Alfie re-signed for another year & somehow Kenny landed the Sedins in 2014? Team Sweden West indeed. I really don't think there's a snowball's chance but how pissed off would other fan bases be if they did?

Lock in hjarmalsson from Chicago and bam!

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If the Wings used a regular buyout wouldn't it make his cap hit 2 mil this year and they buy him out over this year and next?

Regular aka ordinary course buyouts had to be done during the same period that the compliance buyouts were done which expired back on July 4th. Or more correctly, compliance buyouts had to happen during the long-standing window for ordinary course buyouts because those rules existed prior to the new CBA & compliance buyouts to get under the new cap. The Wings missed their window to buy out Sammy's contract, compliance or regular/ordinary course. The window doesn't open until the end of The Cup finals in June of 2014 & by that time, Sammy will be without a contract anyway. Now if they had done an ordinary course buyout on his contract in June, the cap hit would have been $1m each in 2013-14 & 14-15.

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If the Wings used a regular buyout wouldn't it make his cap hit 2 mil this year and they buy him out over this year and next?

Regular aka ordinary course buyouts had to be done during the same period that the compliance buyouts were done which expired back on July 4th. Or more correctly, compliance buyouts had to happen during the long-standing window for ordinary course buyouts because those rules existed prior to the new CBA & compliance buyouts to get under the new cap. The Wings missed their window to buy out Sammy's contract, compliance or regular/ordinary course. The window doesn't open until the end of The Cup finals in June of 2014 & by that time, Sammy will be without a contract anyway. Now if they had done an ordinary course buyout on his contract in June, the cap hit would have been $1m each in 2013-14 & 14-15.

35+ contract. Doesn't that give him the full $3 mil?

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If the Wings used a regular buyout wouldn't it make his cap hit 2 mil this year and they buy him out over this year and next?

They aren't eligible to use a regular buyout

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35+ contract. Doesn't that give him the full $3 mil?

If you mean his buyout pay, that's 2/3rds of his remaining salary spread out over twice the remaining years of the contract. It's 2/3rds for 26+ & 1/3rd for <26. No special treatment for 35+ as far as buyouts go. And as stated a few times in this thread, it's really irrelevant now because Sammy can't be bought out any more, either ordinary course or compliance.

Edited by ogreslayer

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If you mean his buyout pay, that's 2/3rds of his remaining salary spread out over twice the remaining years of the contract. It's 2/3rds for 26+ & 1/3rd for <26. No special treatment for 35+ as far as buyouts go. And as stated a few times in this thread, it's really irrelevant now because Sammy can't be bought out any more, either ordinary course or compliance.

Can he be boarded in practice 10 times a day?

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I think the minimum standard is 20

Yah. Sammy has us hostage.

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Yah. Sammy has us hostage.

Just let Sammy start practicing. He will injury multiple people like he has in the past and we won't have a roster limit problem anymore.

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Just let Sammy start practicing. He will injury multiple people like he has in the past and we won't have a roster limit problem anymore.

I know, right! With our luck, he will break Helm's ankle with a snap shot, tear Nyquist's ACL with a knee on knee hit, and give DeKeyser a concussion while boarding him before the season starts.

LidsFan likes this

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BTW, I love how hypocritical typical Detroit fan is about signing players. Bertuzzi is too old. Get Jagr instead. Samuelsson was hurt a lot one year he's injury prone. Lecavalier missed 20% of his games the last 3 years they should sign him to a multi-year contract.

Jagr right now > Bertuzzi right now

Lecavalier right now > Samuelsson right now

Granted, Jagr and Lecavalier would be more expensive than Bertuzzi and Samuelsson, respectively. And there's the whole issue with top-six minutes. But I don't see anything wrong with, say, "Bertuzzi is too [insert whatever]. Jagr, on the other hand - he's doing pretty well for himself...."

Edited by Dabura

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BTW, I love how hypocritical typical Detroit fan is about signing players. Bertuzzi is too old. Get Jagr instead. Samuelsson was hurt a lot one year he's injury prone. Lecavalier missed 20% of his games the last 3 years they should sign him to a multi-year contract.

Jagr right now > Bertuzzi right now

Lecavalier right now > Samuelsson right now

Granted, Jagr and Lecavalier would be more expensive than Bertuzzi and Samuelsson, respectively. And there's the whole issue with top-six minutes. But I don't see anything wrong with, say, "Bertuzzi is too [insert whatever]. Jagr, on the other hand - he's doing pretty well for himself...."

Jagr is still old. VL is still injury prone.

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