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sjr2012

Who do we Unload, reload on before the season starts?

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The Wings need to get stronger on D not weaker. Any scenario where Dekeyser is sent down to GR for any period of time is flat out stupid. I don't understand the love this board shows for a 5 foot 8 inch enforcer (Tootoo)

who couldn't crack the line-up in the play-offs or a gap filling Center (Emmerton) who is average at very best. If Holland continues to fail in the trade world to make this team better we need to cut bait with marginal talent

and support the poor contracts he handed out last year. I don't care who comes or goes from the back end, Nyquist, Tatar and Dekeyser need to be in the line-up if we are serious about winning.

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I dont know for sure, but I dont think you can just freely bury players on LTIR if they arent hurt. My guess is that the league has some sort of way to make sure that teams aren't using LTIR as a way to circumvent the cap.

Besides, Bertuzzi is 100% healthy, and Samuelsson is supposed to be ready for camp if he isn't already.

I doubt there will really be any way at all for the Red Wings to unload Samuelsson or Bertuzzi. I doubt any team wants to cough up assets for an aging winger that missed significant time last season, without the Red Wings eating up some of their cap hit. I also can't see Holland eating any salary since they are going to be so close to the cap this season... I also can't see either player waiving their NTC's this late in their careers.

I think the team would like to unload Tootoo, but only if the deal makes sense. I dont think they want to retain any of his salary, nor do they want to take on any more contracts or players. My guess is that interested teams want one or both of those included in a deal for Tootoo and Holland doesnt want either. If they cant move him sensibly, he'll be on the opening roster. Waiving him won't be benificial because the Red Wings would have to pay $975k against the cap for him to play in GR if he goes unclaimed.

I think part of this decision depends on Helm. If Helm isn't ready to go, Emmerton will stay on the team as the #4 center until Helm gets healthy. Then, if they don't have room, they could waive Emmerton. If he goes unclaimed, he can go to GR without anything counting against the Wings cap. With Re-entry waivers gone in the new CBA, they will be able to freely recall him without worrying about him getting claimed and having to pay half his cap hit. As much as I like Emmerton, if he gets claimed I don't think it will really be a big deal. Ferraro will get a look this season, and was probably already on track to get a spot as a #13/14 forward for the 14/15 season. If Emmerton is gone and they need a center to fill in, they have depth in GR. I would say that it would be pretty realistic to expect to Emmerton get traded or waived if Helm is healthy to start the season.

I think Eaves would be next in line to go. If he can't be traded, waiving him and sending him to GR will only cost the team $275k against the cap. Not a huge number to pay to get to the 23 man roster limit.

Another option they have would be to start Nyquist in GR. Probably won't be the best or most popular choice, but if they wait till about ten games in when teams start facing injuries and/or making decisions on whether to send junior eligible players back to their junior teams, they might be able to find a taker for some like Tootoo, Eaves or Emmerton. Then they can recall Nyquist for the rest of the season when the space opens up.

Dekeyser can start in GR, but I can't really see the logic in demoting a d-man, when you have a logjam at forward... Carrying 6 dmen and 15 forwards won't make much sense. If a dman comes down with an illness, a very short term injury or has to leave for personal reasons of some sort, they won't be able to recall another Dman and would have to dress five of them.

I think the Red WIngs options to get down to 14 forwards are as followed, in this order:

1. Trade Tootoo

2. Trade/Waive Emmerton

3. Trade/Waive Eaves

4. Start with Nyquist in GR

5. If still injured, start with Helm on IR

No to everything. Just no. A player cannot hold a GM or an organization hostage. The only way Sammy plays is if the Wings really want him to play. Otherwise, the team buys his ass out, keeps him on LTIR, sends him to the minors, etc etc etc to keep him off the 23 man roster and lower his cap hit as much as possible. You dont start looking to trade guys that are young and have a considerable investment of draft/time/effort/money already put in. The Wings tried to make Mursak, Kopecky, Fleischmann, and Rittola work for AGES before throwing in the towel. No way they just say "Bye' to Emmerton. Get real. My guess is they are still of the opinion Sammy and Bertuzzi can bring some value to the team.

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And people thought I was crazy when I talked about how bad 2 years and a NFC was for Sammy and cola. Least we could waste money and buy out cola....

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No you can't just bury a guy just to do it. All HD would have to do is get a doctor to day he isn't hurt and file a grievance.

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No to everything. Just no. A player cannot hold a GM or an organization hostage. The only way Sammy plays is if the Wings really want him to play. Otherwise, the team buys his ass out, keeps him on LTIR, sends him to the minors, etc etc etc to keep him off the 23 man roster and lower his cap hit as much as possible. You dont start looking to trade guys that are young and have a considerable investment of draft/time/effort/money already put in. The Wings tried to make Mursak, Kopecky, Fleischmann, and Rittola work for AGES before throwing in the towel. No way they just say "Bye' to Emmerton. Get real. My guess is they are still of the opinion Sammy and Bertuzzi can bring some value to the team.

The Wings can't buy him out now. The compliance buyout period ended on July 4th. So now they are going with him the whole way unless Sammy is injured OR he agrees to a trade.

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The Wings can't buy him out now. The compliance buyout period ended on July 4th. So now they are going with him the whole way unless Sammy is injured OR he agrees to a trade.

Im sure the player can be persuaded to agree to a trade.

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Im sure the player can be persuaded to agree to a trade.

Assigning him to the ECHL would make him think other teams would be a better option IMHO.

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The Wings can't buy him out now. The compliance buyout period ended on July 4th. So now they are going with him the whole way unless Sammy is injured OR he agrees to a trade.

The amnesty period is over, but he can still be bought out the normal way, although there are issues with cap if it's done now.

The biggest fear I have with trading him is not that he has to waive the NTC, but that we'd need someone to trade him to.

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The amnesty period is over, but he can still be bought out the normal way, although there are issues with cap if it's done now.

The biggest fear I have with trading him is not that he has to waive the NTC, but that we'd need someone to trade him to.

I'm pretty sure the ordinary course buyout period was the same as the time frame for compliance buyouts, which means it expired back on July 4th. Basically compliance buyouts had to be done during the already defined ordinary buyout period. No go on a Sammy buyout then since the window won't open again until June of next year.

Going by memory here, but I believe the lone exception to that comes down to teams that have had 2 players go to arbitration & having a 3 day window open for potential buyouts after an arbitration decision is done. Didn't apply to the Wings this off season.

Edited by ogreslayer
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So are the Wings going to get to the point where theyre bringing in players to whack Sammy during practice so they can shelf his ass on LTIR? Hell no. Either they wanthim or they will find a way to move him. These people are all professional adults.

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So are the Wings going to get to the point where theyre bringing in players to whack Sammy during practice so they can shelf his ass on LTIR? Hell no. Either they wanthim or they will find a way to move him. These people are all professional adults.

If I had to put money on it right now, I would say that Sammy ends up on the roster & plays out his entire contract. Same for Bert. Neither are going anywhere until next off season.

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If I had to put money on it right now, I would say that Sammy ends up on the roster & plays out his entire contract. Same for Bert. Neither are going anywhere until next off season.

I'm kinda leaning this way too now. I thought Kenny was going to bite the bullet in July and get rid of his 2012 mistakes, but maybe he feels like they deserve another chance to prove him right. I personally cannot root for Bert, Sammy, and/or Tootoo to be in the roster. We have better players.

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I'm kinda leaning this way too now. I thought Kenny was going to bite the bullet in July and get rid of his 2012 mistakes, but maybe he feels like they deserve another chance to prove him right. I personally cannot root for Bert, Sammy, and/or Tootoo to be in the roster. We have better players.

I'll never understand your complete disdain for tootoo, yet your irrational love for "emdog"

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I'll never understand your complete disdain for tootoo, yet your irrational love for "emdog"

I really don't get the Bert hate. He is a good playmaker, back checks, scores in the shoot out, and protects the puck well. We are better with him in the lineup than without. Do we just hate people when they get old now?

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I really don't get the Bert hate. He is a good playmaker, back checks, scores in the shoot out, and protects the puck well. We are better with him in the lineup than without. Do we just hate people when they get old now?

I'm neutral on Bert. He has all the qualities you mentioned and he's a great locker room guy, but he is slow on the ice now and he spent all season injured. So I'll let his performance do the talking this year, and then I'll decide what I think. As for emmerton, he is a serviceable plug, but he isn't overly good at any particular thing. Tootoo is an agitator, that was what he was brought in for and that is what he excels at.

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I'm neutral on Bert. He has all the qualities you mentioned and he's a great locker room guy, but he is slow on the ice now and he spent all season injured. So I'll let his performance do the talking this year, and then I'll decide what I think. As for emmerton, he is a serviceable plug, but he isn't overly good at any particular thing. Tootoo is an agitator, that was what he was brought in for and that is what he excels at.

Sure that's what he excels at but is it worth having him on the roster or the $1.9m he's paid if he's not really allowed to do that?

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I'm a little late to this thread, but for me the only player that I'm 100% positive we should move on from is Patrick Eaves. He never quite looked like himself after missing that year with the jaw/concussion issue. Even if we have to just straight up cut ties with no gain in return.

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Sure that's what he excels at but is it worth having him on the roster or the $1.9m he's paid if he's not really allowed to do that?

I would love for him to be allowed to do what he was signed to do. My point was merely that he is more valuable then others on the team, emmerton, and eaves for sure. Miller can do what eaves does and then some.

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$1.9 mil isn't that much. Teams have roughly $2.8 mil per player they can spend. Tootoo makes just over 2/3 of that amount.

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$1.9 mil isn't that much. Teams have roughly $2.8 mil per player they can spend. Tootoo makes just over 2/3 of that amount.

Sure $2.8m on average for 23 players with the current cap but you don't build your roster will all average players right? For the type of player Tootoo is, $1.9m is too much (tootoo much?) if you don't allow him to play his game during the regular season or trust him enough to be on the ice in the playoffs. That is compounded by having him on a team that will be above the cap & roster limit. Is it really best for this Wings team to have $1.9m a year neutered agitator for the next two seasons that only plays 6 minutes a game when he does crack the line-up when they need to trim salary & players?

Sure I would much more prefer to see them move Sammy, which is going to be difficult if not damn near impossible, but regardless the Wings will have to trim two spots anyway. Why continue to keep Tootoo around if the handcuffs won't come off & you're back to spending $1.9m a year to keep an agitator you won't let agitate on the roster? To stretch the analogy to ridiculous levels, would you want Babs to tell Pavel not to dangle? TB to tell Stamkos not to snipe? Boston to tell Chara that he has to play small? In essence, that's what the Wings have done with Tootoo. They brought him to add a sandpaper to the line-up & then effectively tell him not to all season & bench him completely in the playoffs. A waste of money & roster spot imo & Tootoo would probably be better off career-wise being on a team that will let him play to his strengths. I don't think the Wings are that team based on current evidence.

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No to everything. Just no. A player cannot hold a GM or an organization hostage. The only way Sammy plays is if the Wings really want him to play. Otherwise, the team buys his ass out, keeps him on LTIR, sends him to the minors, etc etc etc to keep him off the 23 man roster and lower his cap hit as much as possible. You dont start looking to trade guys that are young and have a considerable investment of draft/time/effort/money already put in. The Wings tried to make Mursak, Kopecky, Fleischmann, and Rittola work for AGES before throwing in the towel. No way they just say "Bye' to Emmerton. Get real. My guess is they are still of the opinion Sammy and Bertuzzi can bring some value to the team.

I don't like the situation as much as you don't, but I was just looking at it from the most realistic perspective. With the new CBA, it is going to be almost impossible to clear Samuelsson and Bertuzzi from the 23 man roster without coughing up valuable cap space needed for the 23 players that would actually be ON the roster. They can't be bought out, can't be buried on LTIR (unless of course they face another longterm injury), and I doubt they would be easy to trade, even if they did waive their NTC's.

Because of the situation, Holland and Babcock are going to have to take the lemons they have and make lemonade this season.

I like Emmerton too, but it's really not hard to see that he is probably the most expendable forward they have. I doubt many teams want to give anything up for him, since the 29 other teams will probably have a couple of young guys out of minor league options, or a couple of camp tryouts that could give them what Emmerton offers without having to give up any draft picks or prospects.

I have my money on the notion that if Helm is ready to go and Holland can't find a way to unload a couple of forwards via trade, Emmerton will be first on the waiver wire. It's a crappy gamble to take given that Emmerton probably still has some upside, but when the deadline to get to 23 comes around, Holland may not have any other options. If he does get claimed, he won't be hard to replace. Capable 4th line centers are a dime a dozen and the Red Wings have two centers in GR that could probably fill Emmertons shoes on a call up if needed, in Sheahan and Ferraro. In fact, given what the organization is saying about him and the fact that he has scored one less AHL goal in 130 games than Emmerton did in 217, Ferraro is probably following in the same path that Emmerton did to the big club and may even have more upside.

Not sure what you mean about the Wings taking "ages" with all of the players you mentioned...

Mursak followed the pretty standard path to the pros. Drafted and then spent two more years in juniors, then got the standard three waiver exempt seasons in the AHL where his junior numbers failed to really convert. When his waiver exemption was up he was pretty much given a spot as a #13/14 forward on the big club in the hopes that his speed could turn him into a useful bottom-6 forward. He was given two NHL seasons to make his mark, but couldn't stay healthy and didn't seem able to handle the physical aspects of the game. Got waived and no one was interested. Now he's in the KHL. The team didn't throw in the towel, he just didn't cut it at the NHL level.

-Total time spent: 7 years

-Total effort: Same as any other player

-Total Money: Not much (in the grand scheme of things)

-Loss to the team: Minimal if none at all. Unless he has some miraculous turn around in the KHL, we have probably seem the last of Mursak in the NHL. I doubt the Wings will ever look back and say "Gee, I wish we would've waived Emmerton instead..."

Kopecky is probably the only one that fits your bill of "resources" used, but the team didn't throw in the towel. Like Mursak he got the usual two years in junior after being drafted, then got his three waiver exempt seasons in GR. His offensive game from junior didn't translate whatsoever to the AHL, and he struggled to even stay in the lineup in GR. Probably due to his projectable size, the Wings decided to give him one more shot in GR to see if they could translate his game into a physical game. He was able to turn it around playing on a line with Hudler and Filppula, scoring almost a point per game and added some size and an edge to his game. He was given a spot on the 23 man roster than was his to lose, until he missed significant time with an injury. He established himself as a useful bottom-6 forward and spent two more seasons with Detroit, before deciding to leave as a UFA to follow his friend and countryman Marian Hossa to Chicago. IIRC, the Red Wings were interested in re-signing him, but he really wanted to go with Hossa.

-Total time spent: 9 years

-Total effort: Probably no different than any other player

-Total Money: Not much

-Loss to the team: In a summer where the team also lost top 6 forwards Hossa and Samuelsson, Kopecky wasn't really a huge blow. His game has seemed to develop more and he has been more productive since his departure. I'm sure if the need and opportunity opened up, the Wings wouldn't mind getting him back, but I doubt they are beating themselves up over not making a bigger effort to re-sign him.

Tomas Fleischmann is a completely different story. He wasn't even in the Red Wings system for two years after being drafted, and hadn't even made it to the pros yet, before the Wings used to his rights to aqcuire a player that they had an immediate need for at the deadline. Robert Lang was at the time they acquired him, the leading scorer in the NHL and the team had a glaring hole at center they wanted to fill after the departure of Sergei Fedorov. Ultimately not knowing exactly what Fleischmann would bring to the club, he was a good sacrifice to make at the time.

-Total time spent: Less than 2 years

-Total effort: Not much at all

-Total money: Probably almost none

-Loss to the team: Not huge. Obviously Flieschmann has gone on to become a very good top 6 winger and Lang really never become an integral part of the team after 2.5 seasons. The Red Wings smartly made the sacrifice because they had a glut of forwards in their system and had a need to address. The blow was probably softened when two forwards in Fleischmann's draft class ended up becoming very good players for the Wings in Hudler and Filppula. Like Kopecky, I'm sure if the need and opportunity arose, I'm sure the team wouldn't mind adding Fleischmann, but I'm sure they aren't kicking themselves for trading him for a player that filled an immediate need and gave them 40g and 119pts in 159 games.

Ritola was similar to Mursak except that due to a good standing with the cap and a crowded roster, he wasn't gifted a spot on the team. Spent two more (actually real bad) years in Sweden after being drafted and then spent his three waiver exempt seasons in GR after signing his EL deal. After not really doing anything noteworthy in GR, the Red Wings still thought he might be able to add something to team in a bottom six role and signed him to a new deal after his waiver exemption was up. There was even talk from the Wings that summer that he would be given a spot as a #13/14 forward and make Drew Miller the odd man out. Ultimately Drew Miller proved to be a better option and the team also had 13 other forwards that they deemed better than Ritola. The teams only option was to waive him, where he was claimed by Tampa Bay. The Lightning gave him a spot to start the season, but he failed to impress in 5 games, so he once again him the waiver wire but went unclaimed. He actually lit it up after being assigned to the AHL with 27pts in 17 games. He was again given a spot to start with the big club the next year, but again failed to show anything substantial in 5 more games. After being waived and unclaimed again, Ritola refused to go to the AHL for a 5th season, and agreed to terminate his NHL contract to go back to Sweden, where he has been for the last two seasons.

-Time spent: A little over 5 years

-Effort spent: No more than any other player

-Money spent: Not much

-Loss to team: None whatsoever. At the time he waived, the Wings had 14 better forward on their roster. They were also compiling some pretty decent forwards in their system, and had Emmerton and Mursak ready to get looks at the NHL level. Ritolas skill never translated to the AHL or NHL game, and he ultimately never panned out. He's still relatively young at 26 and could turn his game around in Sweden and make a return to the NHL. That being said, at this point in his career, I doubt the Red Wings have any regret over waiving him when they did.

I don't think the Red Wings really put much more time and effort into players than any other team does. Unless they are a college player, you basically get five years after they are drafted to try and make them a useful player. After than five years, they run out of waiver exemption and their entry level deals will be coming to an end. Because of the 23man roster limit, 50man reserve limit, waivers, more young players entering the system every year and the need to ice a competitive roster, it's hard for teams to wait around for young players to turn into anything more than what they have become when those five years are up.

While he is still relatively young and may still have some upside, on paper and to all 29 other GM's in the league, Emmerton is nothing more than an average 4th line or #13/14 forward. There are lots of them in the league, and lots of teams have them in their systems. I like him and it'll suck to see him go, but sometimes this is how things go in this business.

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I think Eaves needs to go and maybe Sammy will fall off a turnip truck. I'd like to see our young guys get more time before they get frustrated and leave for greener pastures.

Guys everyone knows who we would like to get rid of and that is Sammy BUT he is going no where No one wants him we are stuck with him we might as well face it our only hope is we can put him on long term injury but he is healthy right now so that's out for now

We will end up sending a few guys down that we all want and need to play and maybe get rid of Eaves also. We are almost in this desperate situation

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Sure $2.8m on average for 23 players with the current cap but you don't build your roster will all average players right? For the type of player Tootoo is, $1.9m is too much (tootoo much?) if you don't allow him to play his game during the regular season or trust him enough to be on the ice in the playoffs. That is compounded by having him on a team that will be above the cap & roster limit. Is it really best for this Wings team to have $1.9m a year neutered agitator for the next two seasons that only plays 6 minutes a game when he does crack the line-up when they need to trim salary & players?

Sure I would much more prefer to see them move Sammy, which is going to be difficult if not damn near impossible, but regardless the Wings will have to trim two spots anyway. Why continue to keep Tootoo around if the handcuffs won't come off & you're back to spending $1.9m a year to keep an agitator you won't let agitate on the roster? To stretch the analogy to ridiculous levels, would you want Babs to tell Pavel not to dangle? TB to tell Stamkos not to snipe? Boston to tell Chara that he has to play small? In essence, that's what the Wings have done with Tootoo. They brought him to add a sandpaper to the line-up & then effectively tell him not to all season & bench him completely in the playoffs. A waste of money & roster spot imo & Tootoo would probably be better off career-wise being on a team that will let him play to his strengths. I don't think the Wings are that team based on current evidence.

I agree completely, but the team may be find themselves in a similar situation with Tootoo that they are currently in with Samuelsson. If Holland can't find a team willing to make a trade for Tootoo without the Red Wings retaining some of his salary or taking another contracted player in exchange, they will probably be stuck with him and will have to make use of him somewhere in the lineup. When the rumors of him being traded circulated, it sounded as those were the only two variables teams were willing to accept in order to trade for him. His salary sucks for what he has become with the Red Wings, but he was signed during an offseason of way overpaying UFA's and after a year in which he compiled 30pts playing a bottom-6 role in Nashville.

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I agree completely, but the team may be find themselves in a similar situation with Tootoo that they are currently in with Samuelsson. If Holland can't find a team willing to make a trade for Tootoo without the Red Wings retaining some of his salary or taking another contracted player in exchange, they will probably be stuck with him and will have to make use of him somewhere in the lineup. When the rumors of him being traded circulated, it sounded as those were the only two variables teams were willing to accept in order to trade for him. His salary sucks for what he has become with the Red Wings, but he was signed during an offseason of way overpaying UFA's and after a year in which he compiled 30pts playing a bottom-6 role in Nashville.

I think the salary retention's going to be key. I still think Nyquist will end up signing for around $1m or maybe a little over for 1 year. If it is $1m, that means the Wings need to shed around $700k in salary to get back under the cap. Trading Tootoo by himself & retaining the max 50% of the contract does that for them along with an extra $250k. The more critical piece of the equation is getting rid of bodies more so than salary.

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