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unsaddleddonald

Franzen: "I am not a goal scorer"

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Again, your opinion of a player becomes a requirement for comparison, and you always find some reason to say a very comparable player does not count.

What if Moulson was offered an 11 year deal (I know new CBA and all), do you know him well enough to know he would not take Franzen's contract?

If you could lock him up at a 4 mil cap hit when he hits ufa that would be a great deal. Like I said he is currently a steal

So when he is a 4 mil cap hit scoring 10-15 in a few years is he still worth it?

When he is 36/37 will he still be worth the 4 mill cap hit? How about at age 40 or 41?

BTW even if he is not playing the Wings are still paying! (EDIT: He will be a cap hit, not actually being paid)

That is the problem with this whole he is worth the cap hit logic, but at that point you will probably change your stance to he is worth his paycheck.

But that is why the teams went long term like this, it benefits the player (good money, never look for a contract again) and the team (cap circumvention).

Franzen will be getting paid 5 mil for the next 3 seasons, when he turns 37 he will be getting paid 3.5, all with a 4 mil cap hit.

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Now back to comparable players, how about Hossa.

Roughly $300,000 more on the cap hit and his numbers destroy Franzen's. (EDIT #2 D'oh Hossa's cap hit is roughly 1.3M higher, but still under 6 mil)

Since 08-09 (I used that time frame in my early post:

Goals

Hossa: 135

Mule: 115

Assists

Hossa: 152

Mule: 107

PPG

Hossa .90

Mule: .76

PIMs

Hossa: 149

Mule: 205

His salary is nearly identical to Mule's in term and money.

I will wait for the reason why Hossa does not meet you narrow requirements for a replacement. Probably too many assists!

I didn't read through your whole post as I am at work. Currently franzen is worth his cap hit. In a few years if he is not then we can revisit this, we have no way of knowing how he will play in a few years. His regular season production has not dropped as of yet

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If you could lock him up at a 4 mil cap hit when he hits ufa that would be a great deal. Like I said he is currently a steal

I didn't read through your whole post as I am at work. Currently franzen is worth his cap hit. In a few years if he is not then we can revisit this, we have no way of knowing how he will play in a few years. His regular season production has not dropped as of yet

Yes, agree to disagree!

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You don't think Holland has thought about moving Franzen before, or looking for a replacement? I would guess he has, just hasn't found the right opportunities/prices.

I agree.

Dan Cleary would definitely say, "I'm a goal scorer". He has that confidence that Franzen severely lacks.

Source?

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The problem is that if Franzen isn't scoring goals, he doesn't bring anything else to the team.

He needs to be more aggressive offensively and always look to shoot first. That doesn't always seem to be the case. We've seen him go on streaks where he's as good as anyone in the league at scoring goals. When he doesn't do it consistently, it appears it's because of him having a lazy work ethic.

The converse argument is when people state that he produces at the pay level he's currently at. I guess that's true. But that doesn't mean it's OK for a guy to be lazier and underachieve a bit.

"I am not a goal scorer,” he said. “I am a hockey player. I never look for goals. I look to play good and then people score or I do."

I have a hard time believing he'll be more aggressive offensively if he's not really in a mood to "look for goals".

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these might not be exact fits, but all come very close to the goals or salary criteria. since your numbers are all arbitrary to begin with, i feel the list is valid. it shows that franzen is not some super great contract that absolves him from any criticism:

matt moulson

andrew ladd

chris kunitz

michael ryder

erik cole

If we had Andrew Ladd instead of Johan Franzen, we win the Cup next year. There's a very good reason that Ladd is the captain here in Winnipeg. His compete level is that of Darren Helm.

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Thank you. Cleary loves to shoot and has confidence. He just has no talent. Give him Franzen's skills and we have a great player.

Except Franzen outshot Cleary 116 to 93 last season and had a higher S% of 12.1 as compared to Cleary's 9.7

And the difference is bigger during regular seasons that arnt 48 games long. The only player that typically out shoots Franzen is Zetterberg. Wouldn't say having a confident shot is the issue at all here.

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Except Franzen outshot Cleary 116 to 93 last season and had a higher S% of 12.1 as compared to Cleary's 9.7

And the difference is bigger during regular seasons that arnt 48 games long. The only player that typically out shoots Franzen is Zetterberg. Wouldn't say having a confident shot is the issue at all here.

I have more of a problem where Franzen typically plays on the ice. Cleary did a ton of dirty work in front of the net, which Franzen could do more of with his size. Franzen has ridiculous hands and probably the best wrist shot on the team, but yet he rarely seems to put himself near the slot where he could utilize that strength. The Wings got slightly better as the season progressed, but they still have a knack for generating too much of their offense from the perimeter.

That's why I don't have as much of a gripe with Cleary and Abby. At least they were consistently willing to try and score dirty goals.

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Except Franzen outshot Cleary 116 to 93 last season and had a higher S% of 12.1 as compared to Cleary's 9.7

And the difference is bigger during regular seasons that arnt 48 games long. The only player that typically out shoots Franzen is Zetterberg. Wouldn't say having a confident shot is the issue at all here.

Your stats actually somewhat prove my point.

Franzen didn't play all 48 games, but he should have a much higher SPG ratio than Cleary. The gap wasn't that high as your stats show, especially when you consider Franzen logging more icetime and more PP minutes, where so many shots come from.

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I have more of a problem where Franzen typically plays on the ice. Cleary did a ton of dirty work in front of the net, which Franzen could do more of with his size. Franzen has ridiculous hands and probably the best wrist shot on the team, but yet he rarely seems to put himself near the slot where he could utilize that strength. The Wings got slightly better as the season progressed, but they still have a knack for generating too much of their offense from the perimeter.

That's why I don't have as much of a gripe with Cleary and Abby. At least they were consistently willing to try and score dirty goals.

Can't argue there. Cleary was our poor mans homer replacement. Though I'm of the opinion that Abby has no place in the top 6.

Franzen just isn't physically aggressive enough to play that role it seems

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Your stats actually somewhat prove my point.

Franzen didn't play all 48 games, but he should have a much higher SPG ratio than Cleary. The gap wasn't that high as your stats show, especially when you consider Franzen logging more icetime and more PP minutes, where so many shots come from.

Ok look at 2011-12. Cleary averaged 1.44 TOI less than Franzen. Cleary had a S% of 6 and Franzen had 13.7. Again, the only one to outshoot the Mule was Z and they were both Clearly our most dominant shooters. Confidence in shot is not the issue here.

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Can't argue there. Cleary was our poor mans homer replacement. Though I'm of the opinion that Abby has no place in the top 6.

Franzen just isn't physically aggressive enough to play that role it seems

Completely agree. I don't really believe Abby belongs in the top-six either. It was practically through default he came into that role last season and was pretty effective at the dirty work. I don't think that is the ideal place for him either -- not enough offensive upside and he's better at forechecking hard and hitting people on the third line with Helm. With the additions of Alfredsson and Weiss, plus potentially more minutes for Nyquist/Tatar, the Wings should be able to slide Abby into a more appropriate spot.

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Ok look at 2011-12. Cleary averaged 1.44 TOI less than Franzen. Cleary had a S% of 6 and Franzen had 13.7. Again, the only one to outshoot the Mule was Z and they were both Clearly our most dominant shooters. Confidence in shot is not the issue here.

No one is arguing that franzen has a better shot, I get what your saying but obviously Cleary isn't nearly as talented and won't have the same scoring percentage

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The real problem is that people expect him to be a 40 goal scorer, when he simply is not (Well that and we expect him to be a goal per game player like he was in the 08 playoffs). It's quite the anomaly. Even Mickey Redmond refers to him as a 40 goal guy, but check his stats, at 33, he's never scored that much. Hell, he's only scored over 30 goals once.

Moral of the story, perhaps people need to change their expectations of how much this guy scores. He's a high 20 goal scorer. Couple that with an average of 20 assists and it doesn't seem as bad as people make it out to be.

I do think he will largely benefit from playing with workhorses like Weiss or Alfie though. Guys who aren't afraid to get a little dirty while he gets himself into prime scoring positions (and when you can shoot the puck like him, that's pretty much anywhere).

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The real problem is that people expect him to be a 40 goal scorer, when he simply is not (Well that and we expect him to be a goal per game player like he was in the 08 playoffs). It's quite the anomaly. Even Mickey Redmond refers to him as a 40 goal guy, but check his stats, at 33, he's never scored that much. Hell, he's only scored over 30 goals once.

Moral of the story, perhaps people need to change their expectations of how much this guy scores. He's a high 20 goal scorer. Couple that with an average of 20 assists and it doesn't seem as bad as people make it out to be.

I do think he will largely benefit from playing with workhorses like Weiss or Alfie though. Guys who aren't afraid to get a little dirty while he gets himself into prime scoring positions (and when you can shoot the puck like him, that's pretty much anywhere).

I'm not so sure it's Franzen's production that people have a gripe about. At least for me personally, it's more the appearance that Franzen doesn't show up to play every game. He is a great value for the contract, but that doesn't make floating and lack of effort acceptable. Franzen's massive playoff years probably skewed some expectations, though in reality Franzen hasn't performed at all in the playoffs since then. So, when your fallback is "playoff performer" and then you don't do that anymore -- combined with the floating during the regular season, that's where fans start to get upset with Franzen.

I agree that Weiss centering a line should help out Franzen this season. He needs somebody to do most of the work.

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http://www.freep.com/article/20130919/SPORTS05/309190051/1053/sports05

And even there, Pierre LeBrun thinks the Mule is overrated, writing: “I don’t know what it is, but I always feel like Franzen leaves me wanting more. I just feel like he’s always had the talent to be a 40-goal scorer in this league. ... He scored 28 goals in 2010-11, 29 in 2011-12 and 14 in 41 games last season in the lockout-shortened year. Those numbers are good, but I feel like his talent should produce more.”

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Guest ForzaVerde   
Guest ForzaVerde

The problem is that if Franzen isn't scoring goals, he doesn't bring anything else to the team.

He needs to be more aggressive offensively and always look to shoot first. That doesn't always seem to be the case. We've seen him go on streaks where he's as good as anyone in the league at scoring goals. When he doesn't do it consistently, it appears it's because of him having a lazy work ethic.

The converse argument is when people state that he produces at the pay level he's currently at. I guess that's true. But that doesn't mean it's OK for a guy to be lazier and underachieve a bit.

Well said. I think Franzen needs to take on more responsibility and ip his desire to be an all-star instead of backing down.

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Would this thread become even more interesting if I mentioned Marian Hossa?

Instead of paying Franzen his $4 million to be a 25-30 goal scorer, we could have paid Hossa a little more, but gotten a much better production in return.

He sucked in the 2009 playoffs, but Holland is supposed to see the future better than us, and I think we can all agree he made the wrong decision.

I don't blame Holland. Hossa didn't have the reputation as a playoff beast. And really, I don't think he has been. Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't consulted the stats, but until this year Hossa was really a streaky regular season player. Holland could've gone either way, but it looked like the sky was the limit for Franzen. Then came the Cup hangover that lasted til last year.

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Hossa was a known; you knew pretty much exactly what you were getting with his services (he's been that consistent), and what you were getting was (and remains) generally very valuable. Provided he wasn't injured.

Franzen, on the other hand, was a big question mark. Were these monster playoff runs the real Johan Franzen, or would they prove to be anomalies, outliers?

I think, given all that, Holland was wrong to choose Franzen. You choose the known, the proven, the consistent, not the (un)known, no matter how sexy the package may have proven itself to be in the short time you've known it.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, Hossa will very likely be remembered as the superior playoff performer. Irony!

But, alas, [/deadhorsebrokenrecord]

Also, I don't really care what LeBrun has to say either, but I do happen to agree with him here.

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