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unsaddleddonald

Franzen: "I am not a goal scorer"

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Challenge for those complaining about Franzen. Find 5 players who have hit UFA status who have scored more goals for the last 3 years with a smaller average cap hit sincw signing their UFA deal than Franzen. As frustrating as he can be he provides good value for his cap number.

So because he doesn't have a big contract, that means it's OK for him to not always play hard?

Just score what you're getting paid, and don't worry about the rest?

Sounds pretty lame to me. If Franzen wanted more money, he should have asked for it. He's shown the skill set of a guy that can score more. His attitude and work ethic prevent him from scoring more, not the fact that he's not good enough.

It's about value.

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He certainly hasn't the last couple seasons.

Sure, but I doubt it's lack of nerve. That would be strange.

First thing that popped in my head;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNcM4YjzgHY

Well... well, look, I already told you: I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people! Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people??!

But really, Franzen is a very good value for the price; he scores 25-30 goals and 50-60 points, and he's no slouch on defense. Though it's tempting to believe otherwise, the fact that he isn't bringing the total package to the table doesn't mean he's worthless. If he were being paid $6m per season, expectations would be higher, but he isn't getting that paycheck. He's getting money that more than befits what he is paid, and what he will continue to be paid.

Edited by Crymson
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In other words, challenge denied.

For reasons which I explained above. The challenge misses the point, as do you apparently.

It's about value.

Then I wish they'd get rid of him, and use that salary, plus a couple extra million for a real goal scorer who plays hard.

No use having a floater around, and then excusing his off games by saying, "Well at least he's cheap".

Edited by GMRwings1983
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For reasons which I explained above. The challenge misses the point, as do you apparently.

Then I wish they'd get rid of him, and use that salary, plus a couple extra million for a real goal scorer who plays hard.

No use having a floater around, and then excusing his off games by saying, "Well at least he's cheap".

name a player for 6mil cap hit will get you 60+ points a year, net 25-30 goals, work his butt off every shift, have great defensive abilities, and get into all the hard areas and charge the net... go ahead and check next years ufas too if you want, even throw a ridiculous trade option, you won't find a perfect player for $6mil, that is a fact

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name a player for 6mil cap hit will get you 60+ points a year, net 25-30 goals, work his butt off every shift, have great defensive abilities, and get into all the hard areas and charge the net... go ahead and check next years ufas too if you want, even throw a ridiculous trade option, you won't find a perfect player for $6mil, that is a fact

Name a player with Franzen's size and skill who takes so many nights off?

I guess what makes a player great is part skill and part work ethic/drive. Can't have one without the other. Franzen has always had the skill to be one of the league's best goal scorers. He's big, has a hard, accurate shot and plays with great centermen, whether it be Datsyuk or Zetterberg. That's a recipe for one of the league's best goal scorers. However, he's never been able to take his game to an elite level of scoring. He never scored that 60 points you're talking about.

I guess that's why he isn't paid more money. He is what he is. Namely, a guy that can score close to 60 points, but is unable to go higher because of his laziness and shyness. So he's worth the money he's paid. It just seems like a damn shame he couldn't be better, because the tools were there.

I look at guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who didn't have some of Franzen's natural gifts, but made themselves into elite players. He had it, but never got there.

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Name a player with Franzen's size and skill who takes so many nights off?

I guess what makes a player great is part skill and part work ethic/drive. Can't have one without the other. Franzen has always had the skill to be one of the league's best goal scorers. He's big, has a hard, accurate shot and plays with great centermen, whether it be Datsyuk or Zetterberg. That's a recipe for one of the league's best goal scorers. However, he's never been able to take his game to an elite level of scoring. He never scored that 60 points you're talking about.

I guess that's why he isn't paid more money. He is what he is. Namely, a guy that can score close to 60 points, but is unable to go higher because of his laziness and shyness. So he's worth the money he's paid. It just seems like a damn shame he couldn't be better, because the tools were there.

I look at guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who didn't have some of Franzen's natural gifts, but made themselves into elite players. He had it, but never got there.

well i said 60 points cause you said a better player fora couple million more, but you never did show me that player

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well i said 60 points cause you said a better player fora couple million more, but you never did show me that player

There probably isn't one, but you're also missing the point.

Franzen could be a lot better than 30 goals and 60 points. With that kind of shot, that kind of frame and those kind of linemates, I'm going to channel Mickey Redmond when I say that Franzen should be on a scoring pace of 40 goals every season these last couple of years. He should be hard to play against every game, which he never seems to be.

You're basically admitting that he's an underachiever who's worth all he's paid. So am I. I'm just not happy about it, because he could be better (probably too late now that he's in his 30's). The guy has talent, but doesn't play hard enough every game. I can't excuse that just because he makes as much money as other 30 goal scorers around the league. Those other guys around the league don't have his physical talents. He's untapped potential.

And that's why many posters here don't like him. Nobody wants to see a guy scoring two goals one night, and then looking lost and disinterested the next 5 games. Regardless of what he's paid and who else around the league makes what.

Edited by GMRwings1983
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Name a player with Franzen's size and skill who takes so many nights off?

I guess what makes a player great is part skill and part work ethic/drive. Can't have one without the other. Franzen has always had the skill to be one of the league's best goal scorers. He's big, has a hard, accurate shot and plays with great centermen, whether it be Datsyuk or Zetterberg. That's a recipe for one of the league's best goal scorers. However, he's never been able to take his game to an elite level of scoring. He never scored that 60 points you're talking about.

I guess that's why he isn't paid more money. He is what he is. Namely, a guy that can score close to 60 points, but is unable to go higher because of his laziness and shyness. So he's worth the money he's paid. It just seems like a damn shame he couldn't be better, because the tools were there.

I look at guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who didn't have some of Franzen's natural gifts, but made themselves into elite players. He had it, but never got there.

I believe the management of the Wings saw this in him and thats why they made the offer that they did to him. Its a good thing that the Wings didn't misread him and offer him 5-6 million a season. There are many players that make it to the NHL that have great talent to excel. Some, like Datsyuk, turn into elite players. Others, like Franzen, turn into decent/above average players. Then you have some, like Patrick Stefan who fizzle out.

So, while everyone is whining about Franzen and him not living up to his potential, I believe many people have to step back and look at the potential that hundreds of players enter the NHL with every year. How many of those become elite? Very very few. Which is why the Wings fans are holding their collective breath on who is going to take over when Dats and Zetterberg start their decline and/or retire. Nyquist, Jurco, and Tatar have the skills to be elite, but its not a given that they are going to be elite.

So once again we go back to the original question.

If a player is being paid $4 million a season and is meeting/exceeding expectations for what he brings to the table, is that a bad thing? Its obvious that Franzen is not a elite player, but he is not being paid as such, so why all the hate?

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I believe the management of the Wings saw this in him and thats why they made the offer that they did to him. Its a good thing that the Wings didn't misread him and offer him 5-6 million a season. There are many players that make it to the NHL that have great talent to excel. Some, like Datsyuk, turn into elite players. Others, like Franzen, turn into decent/above average players. Then you have some, like Patrick Stefan who fizzle out.

So, while everyone is whining about Franzen and him not living up to his potential, I believe many people have to step back and look at the potential that hundreds of players enter the NHL with every year. How many of those become elite? Very very few. Which is why the Wings fans are holding their collective breath on who is going to take over when Dats and Zetterberg start their decline and/or retire. Nyquist, Jurco, and Tatar have the skills to be elite, but its not a given that they are going to be elite.

So once again we go back to the original question.

If a player is being paid $4 million a season and is meeting/exceeding expectations for what he brings to the table, is that a bad thing? Its obvious that Franzen is not a elite player, but he is not being paid as such, so why all the hate?

Because as I just wrote, people don't like to see a guy scoring a few goals, and then disappearing for the longest time. It adds up to 25 goals, but looks like he's floating more often that not. Fans want to see guys busting their ass on every shift.

It's a shame that centers like Datsyuk and Zetterberg haven't had a chance to play with a true goal scoring winger for the longest time. Obviously, it's even worse when guys like Abdelkader or Cleary are thrown on top lines, but those guys never had Franzen's talent or fan expectations.

The hate from fans isn't hard to understand when you look at it as something differently than just salary. It's those reasons above why Franzen is disliked.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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Franzen would look good in a Canucks jersey.

Not quite sure what to expect from Franzen this coming season but a buyout on him (in the future) could be a realistic option.

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Name a player with Franzen's size and skill who takes so many nights off?

I'll take that to mean that you cannot answer his question.

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I would just like to point out Franzen is being paid $5M this season. It's his cap hit which is $4M, thanks to the couple of bogus years on the end of his contract which will come back and bite us on the ass if and when he retires early.

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Weird. This is a pure mental/attitude issue, and I have to wonder what his deal is and how how Babs has tried to approach it.

He really could do so much more.

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Well nothing new here, Franzen never wanted to be the guy. He is comfortable to play alongside guys like Zetterberg and Hossa he wants to help out not be the guy.

If the DetroitRedWings expected him to change that, well tough luck he isn ot going to do it, why should he let him play in a comfortable role and he will good again but asking him to carry a line or to become one of the guys is just too much.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I would just like to point out Franzen is being paid $5M this season. It's his cap hit which is $4M, thanks to the couple of bogus years on the end of his contract which will come back and bite us on the ass if and when he retires early.

It's his cap hit that is important to me. I couldn't care less if he got paid 100 million dollars this year, I look at his cap hit. Ya maybe his last couple seasons he might not be worth that cap hit, but who knows. Right now he is worth it.

That's like complaining the car you bought will break in 5 years, maybe you're right, but for now you have no way of knowing and you might as well get the use you can out of it, as it is still worth what you paid for it

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The problem is that Mule often bails out from in front of the goalie before the shot arrives. He's got the size and hands but I don't know if he has the fortitude to face an oncoming shot like Homer and Cleary did.

True. Which is why I expect Abby to start on the top line.. Which I wouldn't mind but if mule could fix his fortitude problem, he'd best benefit the team from in front of the net with pav and z

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Because as I just wrote, people don't like to see a guy scoring a few goals, and then disappearing for the longest time. It adds up to 25 goals, but looks like he's floating more often that not. Fans want to see guys busting their ass on every shift.

It's a shame that centers like Datsyuk and Zetterberg haven't had a chance to play with a true goal scoring winger for the longest time. Obviously, it's even worse when guys like Abdelkader or Cleary are thrown on top lines, but those guys never had Franzen's talent or fan expectations.

The hate from fans isn't hard to understand when you look at it as something differently than just salary. It's those reasons above why Franzen is disliked.

Once again, it all comes down to expectations, and Franzen falling short of those expectations. There are hundreds of NHL players that never live up to their expectations. Some are blessed with great goal scoring touch, physical presence, or hustle in the minors. Yet, when they come up to the NHL, they fall short of expectations. Only a select few are elite. Hell, Dats and Zetterberg weren't even drafted in the first round. Those late round selections that turn elite are even more rare.

I think instead of concentrating on what Franzen doesn't bring to the table (hustle, desire to be #1 player), people should just concentrate on what makes him a good NHL player (scoring touch, playmaker, size). He is not getting paid big money to be something he is not.

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There probably isn't one, but you're also missing the point.

Franzen could be a lot better than 30 goals and 60 points. With that kind of shot, that kind of frame and those kind of linemates, I'm going to channel Mickey Redmond when I say that Franzen should be on a scoring pace of 40 goals every season these last couple of years. He should be hard to play against every game, which he never seems to be.

You're basically admitting that he's an underachiever who's worth all he's paid. So am I. I'm just not happy about it, because he could be better (probably too late now that he's in his 30's). The guy has talent, but doesn't play hard enough every game. I can't excuse that just because he makes as much money as other 30 goal scorers around the league. Those other guys around the league don't have his physical talents. He's untapped potential.

And that's why many posters here don't like him. Nobody wants to see a guy scoring two goals one night, and then looking lost and disinterested the next 5 games. Regardless of what he's paid and who else around the league makes what.

Zetterberg takes a ton of "days off". When you see how he played the last 10 games and when you see how he played in the middle of the season, why can 't he play like that day in and day out? He also makes 3 million more than Franzen and scores less. It's all perception.

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Zetterberg takes a ton of "days off". When you see how he played the last 10 games and when you see how he played in the middle of the season, why can 't he play like that day in and day out? He also makes 3 million more than Franzen and scores less. It's all perception.

And here is where a lot of Franzen is like Player X comparisons fail, when Z is not scoring, or as you say taking "days off", he is still one of the best defensive forwards in the game.

Franzen when not scoring is one of the biggest wastes of space on the ice.

All you really need to see is him with the puck between the red line and the offensive blue line, if he flips it in the zone and barely skates after it, you are not getting much from him that game.

If he protects the puck and gains the zone, or dumps and chases it, you know he is in the game mentally.

However, when he is not "in it to win it" he is better served in the press box.

I also do not understand the posts about him having size and play maker ability.

When he loafs, he does not create plays, and he almost never uses his size, so how skills he doesn't really use make up for him taking shifts and games off is really confusing to me.

As I have said numerous times on this forum, you take Franzen and give him Tootoo, Abby, Cleary, or Helm's heart and desire and you have an all world talent.

As it is right now, you have a very talented player who often times has little effort and desire.

I can excuse a lack of talent, like Helm's hands of stone, he just doesn't have hands of a Franzen or Bertuzzi even, but I have a very hard time excusing lack of effort!

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Zetterberg takes a ton of "days off". When you see how he played the last 10 games and when you see how he played in the middle of the season, why can 't he play like that day in and day out? He also makes 3 million more than Franzen and scores less. It's all perception.

Your comparison...doesn't hold.

True, Zetteberg isn't always playing at 300% like he was during that final do-or-die stretch in the regular season. But there's a difference between not playing 300% all the time and not playing 100% all the time.

The thing with Franzen is, when he disappears (and he does so on a more-than-infrequent basis), he disappears completely. When's he "gone," he adds nothing to the lineup. And he doesn't really seem to get that there's something wrong with that. He just wants to have fun, man.

Zetterberg? Sure, he has his dry spells. But that's point production. It doesn't reflect, for example, his two-way play, which is always exceptional.

There's a reason so many people have an issue with Franzen. There's a reason why Zetterberg is the captain.

Edited by Dabura
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And here is where a lot of Franzen is like Player X comparisons fail, when Z is not scoring, or as you say taking "days off", he is still one of the best defensive forwards in the game.

Franzen when not scoring is one of the biggest wastes of space on the ice.

All you really need to see is him with the puck between the red line and the offensive blue line, if he flips it in the zone and barely skates after it, you are not getting much from him that game.

If he protects the puck and gains the zone, or dumps and chases it, you know he is in the game mentally.

However, when he is not "in it to win it" he is better served in the press box.

I also do not understand the posts about him having size and play maker ability.

When he loafs, he does not create plays, and he almost never uses his size, so how skills he doesn't really use make up for him taking shifts and games off is really confusing to me.

As I have said numerous times on this forum, you take Franzen and give him Tootoo, Abby, Cleary, or Helm's heart and desire and you have an all world talent.

As it is right now, you have a very talented player who often times has little effort and desire.

I can excuse a lack of talent, like Helm's hands of stone, he just doesn't have hands of a Franzen or Bertuzzi even, but I have a very hard time excusing lack of effort!

This.

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"I am not a goal scorer." - Nixon

Also: Is it really true that Franzen only had one multiple-goal game last season?

Srsly?

That's not really a bad thing. That means he scored in 13 games. Instead of scoring 14 goals in 8 games. He was productive over a longer stretch.

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name a player for 6mil cap hit will get you 60+ points a year, net 25-30 goals, work his butt off every shift, have great defensive abilities, and get into all the hard areas and charge the net... go ahead and check next years ufas too if you want, even throw a ridiculous trade option, you won't find a perfect player for $6mil, that is a fact

I know your statement was aimed at another poster, but here you go:

Stats since 08-09 (Oshie's first year)

Player /age >> GP >> Goals >> assists >> Pims >> PPG

Mule/33 >> 292 >> 115 >> 107>> 205 >> .76

TJ Oshie/26 >> 292 >> 70 >> 125 >> 146 >> .66

Derek Roy/30 >> 319 >> 88 >> 158 >> 162 >> .77

Cap Hit

Mule = $3.95, actual salary = 5 m, Team Cap % = 6.96

Oshie = $4.175, Actual 4 m, Team Cap % = 5.95

Roy = 4m, Actual 4m, Team Cap % = 6.22

I would take either Oshie or Roy's effort over Franzen's any day of the week.

Now I get that they all make less than 6mil which was one of your original requirements but here are just some names with 6m cap hits who I would take over Franzen:

(look at these names, why you picked 6 mil I am not sure)

Milan Lucic, Taylor Hall, Zetterberg, the Sedin twins, Patrick Sharp, Mike Richards, Toews, Kane, Tavares.

Then there are guys that depending on the day I may take over Mule:

J. Staal, Tyler Sequin, Zajac, St.Louis, Jeff Skinner.

Now can we stop saying that for the money there is no one as good as Mule, because even at a 4m cap hit he is not the discount people think.

The fact he is actually paid 5m puts him in the company of a lot better players, with a lot more desire.

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