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Dabura

What's Killing Our Offense?

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Some of this was to be expected. Like I asked earlier, when was the last time we developed a star forward? But to answer that, what is the definition of "star"? A 40 point per year or 50 point per year guy is not a star to me. I look at "stars" as 60+ point guys with 30+ goals per year. We haven't developed one of those in 15 years now. I don't see one coming soon either. maybe mantha (I believe he will be) but he is also 2+ years away from making the Wings and will need a season or 2 to blossom then.

So if we haven't been developing star players internally, have we been trading for them or signing them as UFA's? no. All of which brings us back to where we are today. yes all GM's make mistakes when deciding which players to keep vs let walk. Franzen over Hossa was a big one. yes it was 5 years ago and there has been ample time to make up for that error. yes we missed on parise and in another year or 2 we will be glad we did. maybe. fact is star players make star player money. We don't seem to be willing to spend it. last year was a good example of this. We signed 3 role players for 6 million per year. How has that worked out? Sammy-wish he was gone, brunner-bailed on us after 1 season, and tootoo-likeable guy but doesn't offer much. This past off season we could have traded for a proven 30+ goal scorer-Ryan, but we decided not to. even though he is young, RHed, signed for another year after this one and costs less per year than Cleary, Alfie, Tatar, and Nyquist combined. Not to mention he is out scoring all 4 this year. next summer we have a ton of money coming off the cap. anyone care to make a wager on if we sign Vanek or someone like that? it will cost 8 million per year to do it, so I bet we pass.

Now some on here are hoping and begging for tatar, nyquist, and helm to get back, and expect that to fix our offense. Sorry but it will not. tatar and nyquist are more of the same. Speedy guys yes. Puck movers yes. but these are not guys that are going to drive through the Dman and burry the puck in the net on a regular basis. it will be more of the same. Skate around and shoot the puck from 30+ feet away. maybe I should write 10 meters.... helm is not an offensive player. Awesome defensive forward yes, but he is not a goal scorer. None of these three are going to stand in the crease or block out the G and pick up the rebounds, which is a big part of our problem. yes we were spoiled having Homer all of those years. One of the best front of the net guys ever. No one guy is going to do what he did. But that doesn't mean we don't try to find those guys. The issue is, most of the guys that do that also drop the gloves from time to time, and that is something that the brain trust refuses to acquire.

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The third line looks pretty good, for a checking line (as opposed to a third scoring line). And, yeah, it'd probably be better with pretty much anyone else in Cleary's place. Except Sammy.

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Some of this was to be expected. Like I asked earlier, when was the last time we developed a star forward? But to answer that, what is the definition of "star"? A 40 point per year or 50 point per year guy is not a star to me. I look at "stars" as 60+ point guys with 30+ goals per year. We haven't developed one of those in 15 years now. I don't see one coming soon either. maybe mantha (I believe he will be) but he is also 2+ years away from making the Wings and will need a season or 2 to blossom then.

So if we haven't been developing star players internally, have we been trading for them or signing them as UFA's? no. All of which brings us back to where we are today. yes all GM's make mistakes when deciding which players to keep vs let walk. Franzen over Hossa was a big one. yes it was 5 years ago and there has been ample time to make up for that error. yes we missed on parise and in another year or 2 we will be glad we did. maybe. fact is star players make star player money. We don't seem to be willing to spend it. last year was a good example of this. We signed 3 role players for 6 million per year. How has that worked out? Sammy-wish he was gone, brunner-bailed on us after 1 season, and tootoo-likeable guy but doesn't offer much. This past off season we could have traded for a proven 30+ goal scorer-Ryan, but we decided not to. even though he is young, RHed, signed for another year after this one and costs less per year than Cleary, Alfie, Tatar, and Nyquist combined. Not to mention he is out scoring all 4 this year. next summer we have a ton of money coming off the cap. anyone care to make a wager on if we sign Vanek or someone like that? it will cost 8 million per year to do it, so I bet we pass.

Now some on here are hoping and begging for tatar, nyquist, and helm to get back, and expect that to fix our offense. Sorry but it will not. tatar and nyquist are more of the same. Speedy guys yes. Puck movers yes. but these are not guys that are going to drive through the Dman and burry the puck in the net on a regular basis. it will be more of the same. Skate around and shoot the puck from 30+ feet away. maybe I should write 10 meters.... helm is not an offensive player. Awesome defensive forward yes, but he is not a goal scorer. None of these three are going to stand in the crease or block out the G and pick up the rebounds, which is a big part of our problem. yes we were spoiled having Homer all of those years. One of the best front of the net guys ever. No one guy is going to do what he did. But that doesn't mean we don't try to find those guys. The issue is, most of the guys that do that also drop the gloves from time to time, and that is something that the brain trust refuses to acquire.

You do know we developed Datsyuk and z right?

Also Tatar does drive the net, and he is gritty. Him and goose are very different

Edited by Euro_Twins
Nev and esteef like this

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Feels like the season is just starting now...

10 games of weeding out some vets and getting new players adjusted to the system. 2 Goalies good to go. Our lineup is starting to resemble what it should be. All we need is Nyquist up.

No excuses now.

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You do know we developed Datsyuk and z right?

Also Tatar does drive the net, and he is gritty. Him and goose are very different

Datsyuk and zetterberg were drafted in '98 and '99 respectively, roughly fifteen years ago. It isn't a secret that we have had trouble drafting/developing top 6 forwards. We do have some promising guys in the pipeline, but potential is no guarantee of success.

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Babcock is positively frustrating at times. If you look at my post on the first page of this thread you'll see that I argued for a top six of...

Alfie-Pav-Bert

Zetterberg-Weiss-Franzen

And he goes with...

Alfie-Pav-Bert

Tatar-Zetterberg-Franzen

Close but no cigar. Zetterberg is the only winger scoring goals. So obviously he needs to be moved. Also, Weiss is penciled in as the second line center. That's where he wants to play, that's where the team wants him to play, and that's where he should play. Yet he doesn't. Why not put him between two capable wingers, let him get in on some scoring while learning the system with veterans who can make plays and help ease his transition? Instead they expect him to gain confidence while both trying to learn a new system (the first of his career) and carry the entire offensive load on a line with two hammer hands wingers.

F*ck I hate Babs' line combinations.

Edited by kipwinger

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Lines at practice today:

Tatar-Zetterberg-Franzen

Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Alfredsson

Cleary-Weiss-Abdelkader

Miller-Andersson-Tootoo

Hopefully it provides a spark.

LOL that 3rd line looks terrible.

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Under the topic, what's killing our offense, is the topic Brendan Smith, I guess the forum answered the question for us

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Under the topic, what's killing our offense, is the topic Brendan Smith, I guess the forum answered the question for us

That's funny. When I came on, the topic below "What's Killing Our Offense?" was "Stephen Weiss".

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That's funny. When I came on, the topic below "What's Killing Our Offense?" was "Stephen Weiss".

works just as well lol

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You do know we developed Datsyuk and z right?

Also Tatar does drive the net, and he is gritty. Him and goose are very different

Ummm yes. 15 years ago we drafted and developed Z and dat, which I said. there has been nothing since. A bunch of 3rd line role player types. That is a long long time between stars.

yes tatar is different than Nyquist. but not much and I don't expect much from him long term. 4 full seasons in the minors at GR and never scored more than 24 goals in a season. 30 games with the Wings to date and he has scored 5 goals. Now to be fair, he has never played 20+ games in a row which would help. I have said many times I see tatar and Nyquist as 40 point per year guys. tatar a few more goals and Nyquist a few more assists, and yes, both should be playing every game to prove one way or the other what type of players they are.

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We used to be tops in the league in goals from defensemen and now we have got to be very close to the bottom. That's a big difference. Kindl looks like he's about ready to break through and put up points. Our D needs to be aggressive and we need speed in the lineup

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We used to be tops in the league in goals from defensemen and now we have got to be very close to the bottom. That's a big difference. Kindl looks like he's about ready to break through and put up points. Our D needs to be aggressive and we need speed in the lineup

As does dekeyser, and Ericsson looks like he will score when he finds open lanes, he has a cannon of a shot.

Ummm yes. 15 years ago we drafted and developed Z and dat, which I said. there has been nothing since. A bunch of 3rd line role player types. That is a long long time between stars.

yes tatar is different than Nyquist. but not much and I don't expect much from him long term. 4 full seasons in the minors at GR and never scored more than 24 goals in a season. 30 games with the Wings to date and he has scored 5 goals. Now to be fair, he has never played 20+ games in a row which would help. I have said many times I see tatar and Nyquist as 40 point per year guys. tatar a few more goals and Nyquist a few more assists, and yes, both should be playing every game to prove one way or the other what type of players they are.

Yes you're right, I apologize, because they are still playing I keep forgetting that they were drafted before the y2k scandal lol. Anyways mantha will hopefully change that, and Tatar and goose might be 40 point per year guys, but hopefully they produce more. That being said, goose is more of a playmaker, that is more responsible defensively and Tatar is more of a drive the net, shoot first ask questions later guy.

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The lack of offense to me is probably the biggest problem right now but can't be answered one sentence:

1. the often talked about identity crisis - personally I really couldn't describe the identity of this team if a non DetroitRedWings fan would ask me

2. playstyle (coupled with 1!) - why is it so hard for Babcocks and/or Kenny to accept that this team is not skilled enough to play puck posession style? I know I know, they can't play a grind it out or dump and chase style either because this team doesn't have the size for that (Kenny fix that!) but at least they could play a more defensive minded type of system. Z and Pasha are one of the best 200 ft game overall players in the game, why not take advantage of that?

3. youth = in and out all the time, I really thought making the playoffs thanks to a great YOUNG third line would have changed the mindset of the front-office sadly it did not. That's also the erason why I wanted them to miss the playoffs, because in doing so the top guys = Mr. I - best owner in all of sports by far - would have given Kenny more than just an advise on how to turn this thing around, or else...I mean honestly, a third line of Nyquist, Tatar and Andersson can't be worse than what this team is having right now they just can't. Yeah, young guys are going to make mistakes but at least they have enough time to learn from it and play their hearts out every shift.

4. Banking on the false players in the off-season. Back when Kenny signed Alfie to that ridiculous 5,5 m contract I wasn't thrilled. Does such a veteran loaded team really need another veteran in terms of leadership? I don't think so, don't get me wrong Alfie was an outstanding player and maybe an even better person but the timing to sign him was just odd, as seen so far he is nowhere close to what he once has been. I had to deal with criticism for wanting a player like Clarkson instead of Weiss well so far Weiss has turned out great hasn't he? I know it is hard to adjust to Babcocks systems but maybe just maybe (!) Weiss isn't the right fit for this team? Which then begs the question why did Kenny sign him? --->Rift between Babcock and Kenny?

5. Drafting, if you are drafting that late - like the DetroitRedWings - for over a decade it is really hard to find some gems, Tatar, Pulkinen, Nyquist, Andersson...are all nice but let's be honest here none of them is going to be the next star in this league. That's why I wanted this team to start the youth movement after 2010 (at that point everyone knew the retirement of the perfect human) could come very soon...The way to rebuild/tool under the current NHL regime sadly is to suck and get rewarded for it.

6. Coupled with #5 other teams have closed the gap in terms of drafting. The DetroitRedWings had the privilege of finding european gems, when others didn't have scouts there but nowadays almost every team has a ton of scouts, so another advantage gone. Which begs the question why not go for the sure fire picks instead of mostly high risk / high reward?

Expecting Z and Pasha to carry this team over and over and over again is just asking for trouble, I mean give Weiss 10 - 15 more games if he doesn't work out at that point try to trade him and bring in a powerforward: I also would like to see a guy like Jake Gardiner here, he could try to become the next PP QB so Kronwall could be the shutdown force once again (which is a way better role for him), that way the defense could once again be helpful to our offense.

tl,dr

Kenny has his work cut out for him and the Babcock needs to change the playstyle.

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LOL that 3rd line looks terrible.

yes it does. why do we insist on franzen in the top six if everyone complains about him?

drop him to a third line centre and move Weiss up to the wing.

I am very guilty like others on here. every year I expect franzen to score a lot and play hard and I don't know why I expect it because it never happens. demote the donkey to a checking role.

Edited by DRW Dominance

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In the Kinda Sorta Feel-Good Department, our opponent tonight - the mighty New York Rangers (who most pundits have picked to finish ahead of us) (and they very well may) - have scored twelve goals thus far, five of those belonging to Brad Richards. Additionally, they'll be without their heart-and-soul captain Ryan Callahan, their resident former Wings killer Rick Nash, and the best goalie in the world in Henrik Lundqvist.

Point being, if we lose tonight, we suck. And if we don't score at least three goals, in a winning effort, we suck.

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Teams like LA and St Louis play together and move the puck quickly with short passes and they have a lot of puck support. Our forwards are too slow to come through the neutral zone with support. One man enters the zone and if your not Datsyuk or zetterberg you get the puck taken away in the time it takes the other forwards to help support the puck

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Teams like LA and St Louis play together and move the puck quickly with short passes and they have a lot of puck support. Our forwards are too slow to come through the neutral zone with support. One man enters the zone and if your not Datsyuk or zetterberg you get the puck taken away in the time it takes the other forwards to help support the puck

I have no idea how you've gotten the impression that the Wings' forwards are possessed of below-average speed. Of them all, only Andersson, Cleary, and Samuelsson are below-average skaters.

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Teams like LA and St Louis play together and move the puck quickly with short passes and they have a lot of puck support. Our forwards are too slow to come through the neutral zone with support. One man enters the zone and if your not Datsyuk or zetterberg you get the puck taken away in the time it takes the other forwards to help support the puck

Having watched a lot of LA games it is striking how much team speed the Wings lack compared to them, especially when exiting the zone. And it's not so much that the Kings have blazing speed (they have a handful of guys who are fast) as it is I think the Wings are on the slower end of the spectrum.

It's like I was saying in another thread. They no longer have enough skill for puck possession to be as effective as it was, but they lack the speed and size to dump and chase. I think it's where the mishmash of 3rd and 4th line particularly stands out. On a lot of teams that's the fast, crash bang line that keeps the puck deep in the corners and will throw it out front for a good chance. On the Wings it's just inferior versions of the top two lines.

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The concerns are not based on one bad game, they've basically started one year after the DeteoitRedWings had their last cup run.Should an original 6 franchise be left behind the likes of St. Louis, LA or Pittsburgh I don't think so.

Myself and others just fail to see, why it is so hard for this team to play a style better suited for the current skillset

Like others mentioned have one - crash and bang line preferably the fourth one, a youth loaded third line and keep all the skill on the two top lines.

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