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LAWings

Zetterberg out with herniated disc

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So if the wings happened to have 2 days off before the Olympic break started for the rest of the NHL, you'd say that the break was 19 days? Get real. The length of the Olympic break is from the day after the last NHL game is played to the day before the next NHL game is played. We were talking about the break for the whole league.

The IOC itself does not pay for the insurance. the individual national hockey hockey federations do.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhlers-won-t-skate-at-olympic-orientation-camp-1.1351047

"But the price tag to insure players against injury is too high for Hockey Canada, so the four-day camp starting Sunday in Calgary will consist of informational meetings about the Games in Sochi, Russia, and fostering team chemistry off the ice."

Also, not all participating countries bring an equal amounts of NHL salaries to insure. So, even if the money is passing through IOC, each national federation pays according to the cost of its players' insurance.

Okay, if you want to go with 16 days, your math WAS STILL WRONG! The end.

Did you even read what you just wrote? Canada couldn't even insure it's players for a practice camp because the cost was too high so they had an off ice workout. The IOC is paying for the insurance at the Olympics. Fact. You are WRONG. The governing bodies only cover the pre season practice camps, which is why Canada didn't have on ice practices. They couldn't afford it. The Governing bodies are not supplying any money to the IOC. The Federations do not have that kind of money. The IOC does.

In July, the NHL, NHLPA, IOC and IIHF agreed in principle that the IOC will cover insurance costs for the period of the Games. It is estimated that this will cost the IOC $8 million to insure the participating NHL players.18However, the National Governing Bodies (NGB) for the sport will cover the cost of orientation camps and practices leading up to Sochi.

Edited by Playmaker

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Man...some f***ing people on this board have have some serious issues using logic and reason. It wouldn't be that bad if they weren't so arrogant about their arguments.

I mean if your argument is "If his pre-existing injury flares up while playing hockey in the US, THAT'S FINE!!.

But if his pre-existing injury flares up while playing hockey with a different group of players, on a different/bigger sheet of ice, against lower competition, playing a less physical style of hockey (along with other ridiculous notions about payment/contracts and vacation days which have been debunked countless times), then all of a sudden he's a horrible selfish person who is only thinking of himself and wasn't thinking about the fans (ME specifically!! wahhh!! wahhh!)"

Seriously?? That's your argument??

I have a herniated disc/degenerative disc disease in my low back. I have to take a huge amount of Vicodin and medical marijuana just to sit through 12 credits of classes. I know exactly how painful it can be at times and what kind of things can aggravate it (nobody has even said how he hurt it. All it takes sometimes is getting in your car the wrong way, especially when it's already flaring up because you've been pushing through it for months). I can't imagine playing hockey at the NHL level with the amount of pain I have sometimes.

If you think that Z playing through the pain for the past few months (FOR THE WINGS!!) is anything short of a miracle, especially with this training staff, then I just don't know what somebody has to do to please you. I honestly feel bad for anybody that has to deal with you guys on a daily basis.

Edited by roboturner

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Ummm for those that watch the games, yes Micky has been talking about Z not being 100% and that his back has been bothering him. That means yes, he has been the walking wounded.

Z has had a bad back for 2-3 years now. It is not going to get better on its own. HD's don't work that way. he has to have surgery. Period. Even then doesn't mean it fixes things. Just buys time until you have another then another then another. I know lots of people that have had this issue-spent 30 years in construction. Everyone that has one surgery on HD's has another within 5 years. Heck, look at Bert. How long and how many surgeries has he had? Several. Micky Redmond had his career cut short because of his back.

It actually can get "better" (aka less pain & absorption of disk matter) on it's own if given sufficient nutrients & time to heal. Surgery may/may not help with speeding up the process. Evidence is mixed. The problem for Z is that he has an occupation that isn't going to allow for his nervous system to calm down. Back pain is a ***** in that once you have it, your nervous system is centrally sensitized and it is very hard to keep it under control. Our bodies can be cruel in their effort to protect us. Sometimes it thinks the movement of reaching for the shampoo in the shower is a threat & put's people out of commission for a week. Now think about that with Z, a guy getting hacked, whacked, & pushing his body to the limit. For guys like him & Helm it is going to be rough.

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I have a herniated disc/degenerative disc disease in my low back. I have to take a huge amount of Vicodin and medical marijuana just to sit through 12 credits of classes. I know exactly how painful it can be at times and what kind of things can aggravate it (nobody has even said how he hurt it. All it takes sometimes is getting in your car the wrong way, especially when it's already flaring up because you've been pushing through it for months). I can't imagine playing hockey at the NHL level with the amount of pain I have sometimes.

That's how Rafalski did his in the '09 playoffs.

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From what I've read, he was feeling fine during and after the game. Went to bed fine, woke up in pain. It might have had nothing to do with him playing and everything to do with the bed he slept on in the Olympic Village.

And I'm almost sure (*almost*) he doesn't take any narcotics for the pain. Maybe right now when its this bad he will, but I would guess that it's usually massages and injections.

Hopefully he can get some medical marijuana when he retires

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First off I'm amazed at just how common back problems seem to be in adult men. My Dad has had slipped disc problems also and just in the past year I've developed some back issues (mild to this point, comparatively speaking). Not to mention the posters on here also suffering with these problems. Anyway I've got a ton of respect for Zetterberg at this point. Trying to lead this team and put it on his back to fight for a playoff spot, then going over to Captain his country's team in the Olympics, and overall being a classy dude. Regardless of his future here (which hopefully we get him for years to come still) having Hank as a Captain makes me proud to be a wings fan.

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freshy, yes the pain can decrease on its own, butt hat isn't fixing the problem. As was mentioned before, over here he was taking pain meds and pain blockers.

From the gusy that I know that have had this type of issue-none of us are 100% sure on Z's details, the only fix is to have surgery which involves fusing the bone together. I hope this doesn't have to happen, because that can be a career ender.

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I feel bad for Z. FWIW, I have had back problems since I was around 20 (almost 28 now), and I can go months or longer being just fine, and then the dumbest, seemingly innocuous thing will happen and I will have to start all over. I am a funeral director so I do a lot of heavy lifting all the time and be great and then I will take the slightest slip on some ice or lift a laundry basket or something not even worth noting to myself and it will start. Sometimes it is even 2-3 days before the inflammation kicks in to cause pain.

For all we know, the long plane ride could have been enough on Z. I hope he has a productive, long-term recovery, not only for his hockey career but for his lifetime.

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If 10 of my best employees said, hey, we're leaving for 3 weeks, but we expect you to still pay us, you will have to close down your business, we expect you to still pay the 10 other employees that will sit and do nothing while we go, we will all have to work extra hours because of it and it will bring your business absolutely no extra money or exposure.

NHL players are not being paid any extra for the Olympic break so your statement there is just false. They are making the exact same money regardless of it being an Olympic year.

The owners can bugger off about the Olympics. They were more than willing to completely cancel a season and a half worth of revenue in the past 10 years yet would complain about a two week break every four years?

Edited by GoalieManPat

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Guest Playmaker   
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NHL players are not being paid any extra for the Olympic break so your statement there is just false. They are making the exact same money regardless of it being an Olympic year.

The owners can bugger off about the Olympics. They were more than willing to completely cancel a season and a half worth of revenue in the past 10 years yet would complain about a two week break every four years?

I didn't say they were being paid any extra.

As I said before, the owners don't do a lockout to lose money, they do it to make money. It's Business 101. Even if they lost a small amount during the lockout in the short term, (they didn't have to pay out any salaries or any operating expenses) the amount they gained by getting control of salaries, getting the cap they wanted was a financial gain for them, just as it was in previous lockouts. The fans return like sheep, they get the salary control and contract length they want. Win/Win for the owners. Not sure why this is all so hard to figure out. While the Olympics do little for the owners bottom line and puts their best assets at risk.

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I feel bad for Z. FWIW, I have had back problems since I was around 20 (almost 28 now), and I can go months or longer being just fine, and then the dumbest, seemingly innocuous thing will happen and I will have to start all over. I am a funeral director so I do a lot of heavy lifting all the time and be great and then I will take the slightest slip on some ice or lift a laundry basket or something not even worth noting to myself and it will start. Sometimes it is even 2-3 days before the inflammation kicks in to cause pain.

For all we know, the long plane ride could have been enough on Z. I hope he has a productive, long-term recovery, not only for his hockey career but for his lifetime.

The slight turn to put your seatbelt on. That's my latest. Proves s*** happens even when you're careful. Best of luck dude. May you be pain free as long as possible.

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I didn't say they were being paid any extra.

As I said before, the owners don't do a lockout to lose money, they do it to make money. It's Business 101. Even if they lost a small amount during the lockout in the short term, (they didn't have to pay out any salaries or any operating expenses) the amount they gained by getting control of salaries, getting the cap they wanted was a financial gain for them, just as it was in previous lockouts. The fans return like sheep, they get the salary control and contract length they want. Win/Win for the owners. Not sure why this is all so hard to figure out. While the Olympics do little for the owners bottom line and puts their best assets at risk.

You know I just reread that post you made and I don't think there the is any way it could be interpreted for it to come off like you knew they weren't being paid extra and that the league isn't actually losing any games.

And sure, they did shut down (for months on months) & lose short term to gain more money in the long term, while also completely killing any momentum the league was gaining...Which is exactly why its absurd to now come back and say that you don't want to "shut down" the league for two weeks (while not losing any games, still playing 82!) because it's killing the league's momentum. The days that aren't being used for NHL games right now wouldn't have had any NHL games on them anyway (team-wise anyway), they just would have been spread out more throughout the season. The only difference is every team is taking a break at the same time (much like they do for all-star breaks, where they shut down and send their best players to play in a "meaningless" game, risking potential injury to their stars).

And you think this amounts to absolutely no exposure? TJ Oshie has been all over the news the past few days, and a bunch of people tuned in to watch the US-Russia game at 7:30 in the morning (earlier on west coast). What exactly is that if it's not exposure? I'm mean this is like Steve Jobs saying he wouldn't have wanted the PC in general to get too much exposure because it would be bad for Apple's bottom line...

I'm shocked that you as a business owner don't know how salary works. The players get paid a set amount for the year in exchange for a certain amount of work (82 games in this case). As long as they get that amount of work done within the year it doesn't matter if they stop for two weeks. But you know maybe I'll give you a pass on this one, I'm sure Lemonade Stand owners don't pay their employees with a salary.

I guess if you said anything right it's that some fans ARE like sheep. They just take the owners word for it (or the players, doesn't matter who the information is coming from) and don't do any critical analysis of their own. That's what being a sheep is.

Edited by roboturner

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Do we know if Hank is out for the season? If so, opens up a lot of Cap room for Weiss to come back and to acquire someone with a larger contract...whether it be a rental type player or even a signed player. Having Z's $6m+ cap hit available can help us out tremendously....of course I'd rather just have Z back, but for the better of his long term contract, if he has to have surgery, that is the smartest thing to do...

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Do we know if Hank is out for the season? If so, opens up a lot of Cap room for Weiss to come back and to acquire someone with a larger contract...whether it be a rental type player or even a signed player. Having Z's $6m+ cap hit available can help us out tremendously....of course I'd rather just have Z back, but for the better of his long term contract, if he has to have surgery, that is the smartest thing to do...

I believe he is scheduled to fly back to the states Tuesday and will be evaluated after that.

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This should tell you how back injuries are sometimes:

My back starting hurting (more than usual) about a month ago. I tried to just push through it and do my normal activities.

A week and a half ago it got worse, but again I just kept trying to push through it. I've got stuff to do, ya know?!

Last weekend it got so bad that even through the 15mg of Vicodin along with the medical marijuana, I could barely get out of bed or even move around in bed without extreme pain in my back and my leg. I was sure it was some new injury, as it was on the other side of my back and other leg than before. I was mentally preparing for a round of MRI's and surgery to fix this one as had to be done with the last one.

After a few days of resting, icing, and stretching, I seem to be almost back to "normal" which still isn't great but is manageable. (so to whoever was asserting that back pain can't just go away without surgery I can tell you that is completely false, like I said this seemed to be a new injury)

The point of the story is....You never know how or what or when back pain is going to flair up or begin to get better. It's possible that Zetterberg just needs a little bit of rest, which he will now get, and some non-invasive treatment and he will be back to "normal".

That's not to say he won't need surgery and miss a bunch of games or the rest of the season, as I'm not a doctor or someone familiar with whats going on with him. That could well be the case. But I just wanted to throw it out there that occasionally these things can "heal" up somewhat quicker than expected

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You know I just reread that post you made and I don't think there the is any way it could be interpreted for it to come off like you knew they weren't being paid extra and that the league isn't actually losing any games.

And sure, they did shut down (for months on months) & lose short term to gain more money in the long term, while also completely killing any momentum the league was gaining...Which is exactly why its absurd to now come back and say that you don't want to "shut down" the league for two weeks (while not losing any games, still playing 82!) because it's killing the league's momentum. The days that aren't being used for NHL games right now wouldn't have had any NHL games on them anyway (team-wise anyway), they just would have been spread out more throughout the season. The only difference is every team is taking a break at the same time (much like they do for all-star breaks, where they shut down and send their best players to play in a "meaningless" game, risking potential injury to their stars).

And you think this amounts to absolutely no exposure? TJ Oshie has been all over the news the past few days, and a bunch of people tuned in to watch the US-Russia game at 7:30 in the morning (earlier on west coast). What exactly is that if it's not exposure? I'm mean this is like Steve Jobs saying he wouldn't have wanted the PC in general to get too much exposure because it would be bad for Apple's bottom line...

I'm shocked that you as a business owner don't know how salary works. The players get paid a set amount for the year in exchange for a certain amount of work (82 games in this case). As long as they get that amount of work done within the year it doesn't matter if they stop for two weeks. But you know maybe I'll give you a pass on this one, I'm sure Lemonade Stand owners don't pay their employees with a salary.

I guess if you said anything right it's that some fans ARE like sheep. They just take the owners word for it (or the players, doesn't matter who the information is coming from) and don't do any critical analysis of their own. That's what being a sheep is.

Well, perhaps you need some improved interpretation skills. I am well aware of how salary works and that the players were playing 82 games. To my knowledge, however, I don't believe the owners have stopped issuing bi weekly paychecks during the Olympic break. So, then, the players would still be getting paid, would that be correct? If one of my salaried employees takes over 2 weeks off and doesn't have vacation pay, they do not get a paycheck. They still have to work to get their salary. That's how salary works in the real world. It isn't like the NHL where you can sit out a month, come back for two days of conditioning games, then leave for over 2 weeks to play for someone else and risk further injury.

Exposure doesn't necessarily equal any economic benefit. Did the NHL take off after the 1980 Gold Medal win? Not really. It was a story for a few weeks, then the small bounce it got went by the wayside. Look at the Women's World Cup. When they won the Cup back in 99 (or 2000?) The Stadiums were filled, the buzz was incredible, people tuned in to the final game. So, that must mean US fans love women's soccer?! Lets start a professional women's soccer league and cash in! Not so much. It was a huge flop. People get caught up in the story of the moment,and underdogs and the Patriotic thing contributes. I can tell you, if the US loses in the semi finals, no one is going to care who TJ Oshie is. Most of the people tuning in are already NHL hockey fans, which is why it's not doing much for the NHL. The other people turning in are just into cheering on their country. I turned on a cross country ski race the other day. But there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that I'm going to follow the sport now because of it.

So riddle me this. If the Olympics bring soooo much exposure and is so good for the NHL why are many owners against it? They didn't become billionaires by being stupid.

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Well, perhaps you need some improved interpretation skills. I am well aware of how salary works and that the players were playing 82 games. To my knowledge, however, I don't believe the owners have stopped issuing bi weekly paychecks during the Olympic break. So, then, the players would still be getting paid, would that be correct? If one of my salaried employees takes over 2 weeks off and doesn't have vacation pay, they do not get a paycheck. They still have to work to get their salary. That's how salary works in the real world. It isn't like the NHL where you can sit out a month, come back for two days of conditioning games, then leave for over 2 weeks to play for someone else and risk further injury.

Why in gods name would it matter if they still get a check this week?? Ask anybody that works for a school system.

Read this example carefully. If you still don't understand after this example then there really isn't any hope for you to understand this.

They only work 9 months of the year. during that time there are also breaks in the schedule such as christmas break and spring break.

Lets say their salary is $60,000. They work at the school for 40 weeks (12 weeks off for summer vacation).

You can either pay them the $60,000 during the 40 weeks they are working with 20 pay-periods and each payment is $3000. They still get paid over the breaks during the school year. They do not get a check during their non working months in the summer.

OR (this is the important part) they can elect to to get payed with 26 pay-periods and each payment is $2307.692. They will still get checks during the summer when they are not working.

Either way you still end up paying them......THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY($60,000)!!!! IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY GET A PAYCHECK WHILE THEY ARE GONE!!

Now of course this wouldn't apply if it was an unscheduled 2 week break from work where you already began checks in the larger amount (even then there would be ways to work around this). But this happens every 4 years and has been scheduled for years.

I'm done with this argument checks and pay-periods. I've debunked it several times in the past 2 weeks. This doesn't even seem to be the issue the owners have. Their argument seems to be that...ya know what forget it. Nobody wants to know what the actual arguments are, they just want what they think the arguments should be. I deleted what I had to say about you're "no economic gain" as it seems that me pointing out the truth of any matter is rubbing people the wrong way.

Sorry for bursting you're bubbles filled with non-issues & trying to give you guys some real issues to think about!

Edited by roboturner

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Really not sure where all the anger is coming from. I have always fully understood it. You haven't debunked anything. I've never disagreed with that. My response was to those that said the players weren't getting paid during the Olympics. They are. Not more, not less, the same as they would any other season. They're playing the same amount of games later into the season. How long depends on which math you use, I guess. ;) I get that. Always have, not sure what you're getting all worked up about.

By all means if you have some valid economic reasons for the NHL owners to loan out their best players for over 2 weeks during the season, lets hear them. So, Bettman, Daly, the NHL owners would keep their players out of the Olympics when it would make them money and grow the game because???

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When I hear statements about the players being "paid" during the olympics it makes me think directly of elementary and high school teachers (in canada at least) who get paid during the summer even though they don't work during that time. The pay is spread out over the year and even though they are earning it all in a 10 month span - they aren't paid it all as they earn it so they get money during the summer.

This isn't really in response to anyone in particular - I just think its not as simple as saying NHL players are the only career where you can get paid while you aren't directly working for it.

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"My take is, it's a great stage to showcase our players," he said today. "The USA-Russia game drew tremendous numbers back in the U.S. It's best on best.

"The injury to Henrik, really in my opinion, had nothing to do with Olympics. It's been an issue that set in in December, which he worked hard to overcome. Whether in the Olympics or NHL, it probably would have been the same situation.

"In 2002, Stevie Yzerman played in the Olympics, didn't play another game for us, then helped us win the Stanley Cup. I'm not going to sit here and judge our players. With Pavel, he has been a warrior for us since he showed up in 2001. I'm not sure where we'd be without him. He knows his body better than anybody, and I think he's earned the right to make the decision based on how his body feels."

Ken Holland on Zets injury per The Malik Report

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First of all sorry if i'm sounding angry. Frustrated, yes! Because I've seen this brought up a number of times by multiple people. It's not just you, otherwise this could have been taken to PM's. But since there are other people who don't understand now they can read exactly why it doesn't matter. I'm trying (mostly) to attack your argument because it doesn't make any sense, not you as an individual. That being said.....

Really not sure where all the anger is coming from. I have always fully understood it. You haven't debunked anything. I've never disagreed with that. My response was to those that said the players weren't getting paid during the Olympics. They are. Not more, not less, the same as they would any other season. They're playing the same amount of games later into the season. How long depends on which math you use, I guess. ;) I get that. Always have, not sure what you're getting all worked up about.

No, no you haven't.

Yes, I have debunked the hypothesis that there is even an issue with when or how they get paid during these years.

It sure seems like you disagreed with the premise of paying them while they are not working, even though you "knew" it didn't really matter.

If 10 of my best employees said, hey, we're leaving for 3 weeks, but we expect you to still pay us, you will have to close down your business, we expect you to still pay the 10 other employees that will sit and do nothing while we go, we will all have to work extra hours because of it and it will bring your business absolutely no extra money or exposure. Oh and by the way, I'm too sick or hurt to work right now, though I'm still getting paid, but I'm more than okay to go off for 3 weeks and do my job for my pride. There's also a good chance that when I come back I'll be too hurt to work also. But you will still have to pay me. I have been a good employee for 10 years, so I don't owe you anything. But you still have to pay me. Sorry, not going to fly.

Well, perhaps you need some improved interpretation skills. I am well aware of how salary works and that the players were playing 82 games. To my knowledge, however, I don't believe the owners have stopped issuing bi weekly paychecks during the Olympic break. So, then, the players would still be getting paid, would that be correct? If one of my salaried employees takes over 2 weeks off and doesn't have vacation pay, they do not get a paycheck. They still have to work to get their salary. That's how salary works in the real world. It isn't like the NHL where you can sit out a month, come back for two days of conditioning games, then leave for over 2 weeks to play for someone else and risk further injury.

Why would you think that anything you've said here would apply to how the NHL pays it's players if you "fully understood and always had understood" that it did not matter.

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Zetterberg is flying back today on the charter flight the NHL arranged to bring back all the players knocked out in the QF's.

Sochi to Newark, then Newark to Detroit - don't know how my back would hold up, let alone Z's! :lol:

Edited by Nev

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