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A plea to Holland.


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#81 DickieDunn

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:15 PM

 

When you're the only top-pairing defensemen on the market and a great PP QB, that changes things.

 

Just because someone will give him a huge contract doesn't mean it's a good idea.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#82 _SP_

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:31 PM

 

Just because someone will give him a huge contract doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

 

That's a different argument.  And if you have room on your team for just one player and you have $15M to spend, does it matter how much you pay that guy, given you still retain flexibility to sign your own players to extensions as you wish?



#83 ogreslayer

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:34 PM

 

Just because someone will give him a huge contract doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

Plus he's not a top pairing d-man anymore either. And having the worst year of his career too btw.


Edited by ogreslayer, 08 April 2014 - 04:37 PM.


#84 DickieDunn

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:56 PM

 

 

That's a different argument.  And if you have room on your team for just one player and you have $15M to spend, does it matter how much you pay that guy, given you still retain flexibility to sign your own players to extensions as you wish?

 

A bad deal is a bad deal, even if you can afford it.  If you have $10 million in the bank, would you pay $40k for a rusted out '98 Ford Escort?


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#85 wings87

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:29 PM

A bad deal is a bad deal, even if you can afford it.  If you have $10 million in the bank, would you pay $40k for a rusted out '98 Ford Escort?


What do you have against a ford escort? It's a beautiful car! :s

Edited by wings87, 08 April 2014 - 05:31 PM.

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#86 roboturner

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:54 PM

I'm gonna jump in on the "mngmnt leaving players in the minors".

 

I agree that it takes time to develop these players. I think it's great that they can come up and mostly hold their own in a much tougher league. And for the most part, leaving them down so long has helped us quite a bit.

 

But at some point these guys start stagnating in the AHL if left too long.

 

Personally I think these 'kids' (I don't think you're a kid in hockey terms if your 22 or over) have been left down just a little bit too long.

Management seems to be about 6-12 months behind schedule in getting these guys up here and contributing. Meaning these kids are ready about 6 months (more or less) before they get their chance.

I realize its hard to make a 6 month adjustment, because at that point you've already signed a few over the hill vets to plug the hole. And by the time younger guy is ready, they have to wait another 6 months because their spot is not available at the moment. It's just a cycle that needs to be broken.

 

Seriously if they just moved everything in this process up about 6 months I'd be content with that strategy.


Edited by roboturner, 08 April 2014 - 10:22 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#87 DickieDunn

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:11 PM

For the most part, if a player shows he is ready, room is made.  There is a long list of players who spent less than the maximum possible time in the minors, not including the guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg who went right from the top Euro leagues into the NHL.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#88 Dabura

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:09 PM

I'm gonna jump in on the "mngmnt leaving players in the minors".

 

I agree that it takes time to develop these players. I think it's great that they can come up and mostly hold their own in a much tougher league. And for the most part, leaving them down so long has helped us quite a bit.

 

But at some point these guys are going to start rotting in the AHL if left too long.

 

Personally I think these 'kids' (I don't think you're a kid in hockey terms if your 22 or over) have been left down just a little bit too long.

Management seems to be about 6-12 months behind schedule in getting these guys up here and contributing. Meaning these kids are ready about 6 months (more or less) before they get their chance.

I realize its hard to make a 6 month adjustment, because at that point you've already signed a few over the hill vets to plug the hole. And by the time younger guy is ready, they have to wait another 6 months because their spot is not available at the moment. It's just a cycle that needs to be broken.

 

Seriously if they just moved everything in this process up about 6 months I'd be content with that strategy.

 

How many of our best prospects have rotted in the AHL?


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#89 roboturner

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:21 PM

 

How many of our best prospects have rotted in the AHL?

Rotted might have been too strong of a word.

'Stagnate' would have been a better choice. (I'm gonna change it)


This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#90 STATiK

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:27 PM

While I really want to agree with you roboturner, when I do think about it, I really can't think of a prospect that sat in the AHL so long that they never amounted to anything (unless Jarnkrok really is the next Zetterberg). But with that said, I think that the kids that have come up that weren't expected to be up this year at all, if ever, have opened managements eyes. Sheahan, Jurco, and Glendening for sure have come in and found a place on this team, and been able to 'hang with the big boys' when I'm sure they weren't supposed to even get more than a game or two with the Wings this year. I really hope that helps the future guys get a quicker shot at the big club perhaps, but even so, the system in place is clearly not failing them by any means, as frustrating as it is to see these vets hang around until they croak



#91 roboturner

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:30 PM

For the most part, if a player shows he is ready, room is made.  There is a long list of players who spent less than the maximum possible time in the minors, not including the guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg who went right from the top Euro leagues into the NHL.

Sure, but like I said, it seems like it's happening just a few months too slowly. Signing guys like Cleary and Sammy to take the roster spots of Nyquist and Tatar (who would have been in GR had he not run out of waiver exemption), only to have them lose their spots to these guys in a couple of months anyway doesn't seem like the best plan. Why not just do all that at the beginning of the season?

 

Edit: Statik I totally agree. I didn't mean they would get worse by staying down there or end up not materializing into anything. Was a bad word choice on my part. But like you said all these young guys weren't expected to do much up here. But here they are contributing to the Wings success this instead of playing for different team (GR). I'm not saying the system doesn't work (it obviously does), just that they should be more willing to give these guys a chance in the Big Leagues a little earlier and our team might benefit from it. They can't help the Wings if they aren't given a chance to play for the Wings.


Edited by roboturner, 08 April 2014 - 10:42 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#92 themcityblues

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:23 PM

I think Lashoff is good.  I usually see him in the right place in the offensive blueline, making a good chip-in to keep the puck in the zone.  He seems good at reading the chemistry of his team.  He checks when his team needs a check, stands up and refuses to get bowled over (rarely seen by Detroit's defense corps), makes a play in the O-zone when he senses the need, and plays decent (good) defense.  He's not a shining star, and never will be, but I see him as a valuable cog of the TEAM.  He reminds me of Brad Stuart, just not as good... yet.  He's a younger guy.  I'd be happy with him in the 6 slot for years to come as long as he doesn't regress.

 

Kindl is just lacking confidence.  He has shown glimmers of skill.  Will it ever come together?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Perhaps he would do better with another team.  His potential isn't expired, but yeah, he hasn't been good here.


 

Kindl is a joke, I completely agree with you. The best part is Babcock CONTINUES to give him PP time over Smith. Smith has sooooooooooooooooooo much more talent then Kindl. How bad does Kindl have to be before Babs finally realizes Smith is better for the PP? I posted in another thread, that we need to either call up Ouelette to replace Kindl, or play the top 2 pairings more and limit the ice time of Kindl and Lashoff because they are killing us out there. Kindl cannot even make a simple pass anymore its a joke to watch him.

 

Yeah, but remember when we all thought Kindl was the next good O-minded defenseman and Smith was gone?  Confidence changes a player.


Edited by themcityblues, 08 April 2014 - 11:27 PM.


#93 Buppy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:05 AM

Sure, but like I said, it seems like it's happening just a few months too slowly. Signing guys like Cleary and Sammy to take the roster spots of Nyquist and Tatar (who would have been in GR had he not run out of waiver exemption), only to have them lose their spots to these guys in a couple of months anyway doesn't seem like the best plan. Why not just do all that at the beginning of the season?

 

Edit: Statik I totally agree. I didn't mean they would get worse by staying down there or end up not materializing into anything. Was a bad word choice on my part. But like you said all these young guys weren't expected to do much up here. But here they are contributing to the Wings success this instead of playing for different team (GR). I'm not saying the system doesn't work (it obviously does), just that they should be more willing to give these guys a chance in the Big Leagues a little earlier and our team might benefit from it. They can't help the Wings if they aren't given a chance to play for the Wings.

Having NHL ready players in the minors is not a bad thing. The AHL isn't just for development; it's also additional depth. History says at some point you'll need those guys. 850-900 skaters play in the NHL each year; there are 630 regular roster spots. So every year, on average, you're looking at 7-9 call-ups per team. Many are just bodies on the bench, playing a few minutes when their coach thinks no one's looking, but there's a very good chance that at some point you'll need someone for more than that. When you do it's better to have someone who's ready for it.

 

You don't want a player who's better than someone on your roster being stuck in the minors, but that literally almost never happens. Nyquist may be the only real example. No need to belabor this point. Yeah, we signed too many forwards, so a good one got stuck in the minors for 20 games. It's not the big deal, nor the organizational philosophy, some people are making it out to be.



#94 roboturner

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:36 PM

If we would have missed the playoffs it would have been a big deal.


This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#95 Buppy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:32 PM

If we would have missed the playoffs it would have been a big deal.

Not really. Sometimes small mistakes can have large consequences.

 

Regardless, it's a situation that very rarely occurs. No reason to harp about how we shouldn't do something when we're already not doing it.



#96 LeftWinger

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:17 PM

Does anyone know if Klesla reported to Buffalo?  I seem to remember him not wanting to go there. Would this guy help out our back end for a year or two? OR is he just a prima donna?


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#97 Buppy

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

Does anyone know if Klesla reported to Buffalo?  I seem to remember him not wanting to go there. Would this guy help out our back end for a year or two? OR is he just a prima donna?

At last word, he's heading back to Europe. Likely to be better options anyway. Quincey is better.



#98 roboturner

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:28 AM

http://www.thescore....nhl/news/488763

 

Here's an article from Justin Bourne (don't know much about him, doesn't really matter anyway) who pretty much described what I was talking about above, but better and with graphs! Our biggest problem right now is scoring. This illustrates quite nicely why that is.

 

Age1.png

 

 

And our only current players in their goal-scoring prime....

 

Between 25 and 29 years old - prime time

Three players, none of which have averaged above 16 minutes of ice in the post-season. Joakin Andersson has dressed once in the post-season.

Darren Helm (27, above-average player)

Justin Abdelkader ( 27, good role player)

Joakin Andersson (25, generally not that effective)

Not exactly Anze Kopitar, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, is it?


This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#99 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

http://www.thescore....nhl/news/488763

 

Here's an article from Justin Bourne (don't know much about him, doesn't really matter anyway) who pretty much described what I was talking about above, but better and with graphs! Our biggest problem right now is scoring. This illustrates quite nicely why that is.

 

Age1.png

 

 

And our only current players in their goal-scoring prime....

Justin Bourne apparently doesn't know how to read graphs. Age 22 is clearly higher than Age 29. Am I missing something? It seems to me that would make the prime 22-29 scoring age. That would include all of Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc.



#100 roboturner

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

Justin Bourne apparently doesn't know how to read graphs. Age 22 is clearly higher than Age 29. Am I missing something? It seems to me that would make the prime 22-29 scoring age. That would include all of Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc.

Right, but I think his point is that the Wings rarely have guys playing at age 22. So for the Wings purposes that age doesn't 'count'. And all the Wings players under 25 are in their first full season or are rookies. It's not perfect and doesn't take anything else into consideration (defensive responsibility, draft position, development, ect), but we've obviously been having trouble scoring and this indicates that its part of the reason why that is.

 

I'm gonna quote what I just wrote on this topic to someone else on a different site since I was going to post similar sentiments here. Just keep in mind it was written in response to someone else, but my points are still the same.

 

The point is we don’t have any good point producers in their primes. We have some up and comer goal scorers, we have some slightly over the hill goal scorers, but the only people in their prime on this roster is Darren ‘stone-hands’ Helm & Justin ‘I-hope-it-hits-me’ Abdelkader. That’s it. People wonder why the Wings haven’t been scoring many goals. This is why.

 

If you look at the graph he posted, it indicates that 21-27 yr old players produce the most. Even on the early end of that (at 21), they are already up to 80%. The guys above 33 yrs old have already slipped to 60% and going down. Now add in the fact that these over 33 players like Cleary, Bert, Sammy, ect. were never really huge point producers.

 

So instead of having a 21-24 year old goal-scorer/playmaker producing at 80%, we have older ‘vets’, who are admittedly not huge point producers to begin with, who will only produce at 60% tops. Probably even less than considering who they are. A guy like Alfie who was great during his prime, is still going to (and did for most of the year) put up decent numbers even if he only produces at 40%.

 

As indicated, most players produce the most for their club during their 21-30 year range giving you 9 great years. The Wings on the other hand, because they just have to have that underproducing vet taking the roster spot from anybody under the age of 24, systematically cut that range to only 5 years. That is how it comes back to haunt us! (this was in reference to signings of Cleary, Sammy, Bert, ect.)


Edited by roboturner, 25 April 2014 - 01:25 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:






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