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Andy Pred 48

Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

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I don't think Mantha will be on the team next year. Holland will keep with GR at least one year. called up occasionally maybe but that's it.

I agree but we have to keep a contingency plan in place to have him up the year after - we have to have some expiring contracts for Mantha or Pulkkinen barring a trade that opens up roster spots for them.

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Didn't know where to post this, but in this article Weiss says he was battling the hernia even before game 1. This gives credence what many have said - that we haven't seen the real Weiss.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=717174

Would be huge if he can be a big player for us next year.

...and, on the subject of older injury prone players, nobody is talking about possibly adding Gaborik. Obviously, the reticence is understandable with some of our recent experiences with signing vets. But, If we were able to sign him for a 1 year deal though, would it be a good move? If he still battles injury then it's just an excuse to bring up Mantha/Jurco (if he's sent down).

Since his last injury, he's shown he's still productive: with Kings:

19GP 5-11-16

and 3G 1A in 6 playoff games so far.

He's 32, only 2 years older than Moulson and Vanek, and will demand less than those two.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk
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Barring a trade we have Mantha, Jurco, Pulkkinen as our RWs for top 9 and Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar as our LWs for top 9. Franzen's contract goes for quite a while longer. If we buy him out this year or in a few he WILL be bought out at some point it seems.

Even without adding a Moulson/Vanek I think we can make a trade for a top 4 young defender.

Perhaps:

Tatar, Ericsson, 3rd for Bogosian (WPG has a glut of RD and Bogo had an off season)

Tatar, Ericsson, Ouellet, 1st for Subban (obvious clashing with coaches in MTL)

Some megapackage for Weber (NSH might want to cash in on him for some offensive help before he declines - they are also deep at D)

(Sprinkle in Almquist/Franzen/Kindl/Lashoff/Andersson/Picks)

I think with the glut of assets we have it makes no sense to move a few for borderline top pairing potential - we have to go all in for a sure thing. I want to avoid moving one of our D prospects for an Edler/Ehrhoff then have the kid outplay these players in a couple years for the next decade while Edler/Ehrhoff are on the decline (that is my nightmare). I also don't want to sign Niskanen long term and then only have 1 D spot open for our kids in the next while until Kronwall retires.

Nothing against Tatar, but I think we can afford to trade him. I just don't find him to be the type of player that wins you a playoff series. With Nyquist we already have a young undersized winger and I like the size and physicality that Jurco provides over him. Mantha isn't being moved for obvious reasons. Pulkkinen shouldn't be traded yet because his value is low without NHL time. As for Ericsson, I think he is young enough to have value to other teams and with Kronwall, Smith, and Dekeyser we already have our future at LD taken care of even without Ouellet, Backman, Almquist in the conversation. We should avoid trading Sproul, Marchenko right now as they are the only RD we have in the organization going into next year.

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The Wings have 2 directions they can go. They can go all in, trade a bunch of youth for guys who will help them win now, and end up with a lot less future depth. Or they can let the kids develop and Datsyuk and Zetterberg probably won't win another Cup in Detroit. If they try to go halfway and do both, I think they're going to end up being stuck in the middle of the pack.

Normally I tend to agree with you, but in this case I think you're off the mark. Dirtydangles posted a list showing that even with the loss of Jarnkrok we have more kids than we're likely to have room for, particularly on defense. And that's without adding any UFAs. We're not going to trade our way to being the Blackhawks or Bruins...trying would almost certainly fail as well as wrecking what future we've collected so far. But we do have some pieces to make some small moves, and small moves can sometimes have a big impact.

I don't necessarily think this summer will be the best time for it, but we do have options.

Am I the only one that thinks Sheahan would do better on the 1st line than Abby? ...

Z-Dats-Sheahan

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Abby

I was going to say this same thing. Most of Sheahan's best work has been right around the net. We have some good options at center, so we can afford to give him a look in that role.

you are all leaving out Almqvist, Callahan and Ferraro, who are ALL out of exemptions. Glendening is also now out of exemptions by 1 game. Trades ARE going to have to be made, so maybe there is a scenario that we make a nice deal at the draft for something we really need...

I don't think those guys would have much, if any, trade value. Almost certainly not enough to really fill a need. Ferraro would probably clear waivers, and could easily end up a career AHL'er. Callahan could go the same route, but he did have a nice year, and looked a little better in Detroit. Almquist might get a look from someone, since scoring defensemen are so valuable, but if I had to place any bets I'd say he's bound for Sweden.

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Barring a trade we have Mantha, Jurco, Pulkkinen as our RWs for top 9 and Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar as our LWs for top 9. Franzen's contract goes for quite a while longer. If we buy him out this year or in a few he WILL be bought out at some point it seems.

Even without adding a Moulson/Vanek I think we can make a trade for a top 4 young defender.

Perhaps:

Tatar, Ericsson, 3rd for Bogosian (WPG has a glut of RD and Bogo had an off season)

Tatar, Ericsson, Ouellet, 1st for Subban (obvious clashing with coaches in MTL)

Some megapackage for Weber (NSH might want to cash in on him for some offensive help before he declines - they are also deep at D)

(Sprinkle in Almquist/Franzen/Kindl/Lashoff/Andersson/Picks)

I think with the glut of assets we have it makes no sense to move a few for borderline top pairing potential - we have to go all in for a sure thing. I want to avoid moving one of our D prospects for an Edler/Ehrhoff then have the kid outplay these players in a couple years for the next decade while Edler/Ehrhoff are on the decline (that is my nightmare). I also don't want to sign Niskanen long term and then only have 1 D spot open for our kids in the next while until Kronwall retires.

Nothing against Tatar, but I think we can afford to trade him. I just don't find him to be the type of player that wins you a playoff series. With Nyquist we already have a young undersized winger and I like the size and physicality that Jurco provides over him. Mantha isn't being moved for obvious reasons. Pulkkinen shouldn't be traded yet because his value is low without NHL time. As for Ericsson, I think he is young enough to have value to other teams and with Kronwall, Smith, and Dekeyser we already have our future at LD taken care of even without Ouellet, Backman, Almquist in the conversation. We should avoid trading Sproul, Marchenko right now as they are the only RD we have in the organization going into next year.

Unless a guy like Weber is being shopped, I say going after Niskanen or Boyle should be the priority. Boyle only if he can't get Niskanen. At least Boyle can bridge the gap to the kids taking over the blueline.

If any forwards are traded, I'd imagine it would be for bigger, gritty forwards. We have a lot of guys with skill, and some with size. But if the opportunity presents itself a legit power forward type, I figure that's the only way kids should be traded. Luckily Jurco may very well grow into that role, though it never hurts to have a couple guys like that. If that need were filled, at least then Franzen would be a player that would be depended on. he could alternate between the 2nd and 3rd line, depending on whether he is hot or not. I'd be ok with Mule staying if the team had the leisure to put him on the 3rd line to be a responsible defensive forward when he is in one of his scoring funks. It is the fact that he has always had to be in the top 6 that really killed the team's scoring when he went cold. In the end, I'd like to see him used in the Homer role again. When it comes down to it, that's what cause him to break out as a scoring beast to begin with. It was after that he started playing as more of a skilled forward, which made him very streaky. He is a big body, and showed in the past he is good at deflections. It would be a good role for him when age starts to slow his production.

Didn't know where to post this, but in this article Weiss says he was battling the hernia even before game 1. This gives credence what many have said - that we haven't seen the real Weiss.

Props to Weiss for never using it as an excuse, even though most of us knew better. The few games he did play, he always worked his ass off. He just never had that jump he has always had in the past. Really hoping summer treats him well. If it does, I am confident he will be an impact player for this team next season.

Edit: Also awesome to see he is doing the Gary Roberts thing this summer. As long as there is no set backs. he'll be ready to kick some ass in camp.

Edited by marcaractac
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you are all leaving out Almqvist, Callahan and Ferraro, who are ALL out of exemptions. Glendening is also now out of exemptions by 1 game. Trades ARE going to have to be made, so maybe there is a scenario that we make a nice deal at the draft for something we really need...

Well let's be honest. Callahan Ferraro and glendening are all the same player. FOURTH LINERS. When we have 10 4th liners there's no room for some. I expect Callahan and Ferraro to be gone. And it's nothing against them honestly.

I personally would love a Callahan and glendening on the fourth they'd be agitating as f***. But they're not great goal scorers. We prolly get ten goals combined but really glendening Callahan and a fighter would be an ideal fourth line for me.

But unfortunately we got miller Anderson etc etc. and I like anderson(one if the few who do) but someone has to go and it might as well be the unprovens I guess?

And now that I posted that....I was wrong. I'd actually prefer helm as the fourth line center and Weiss third(if he ever actually plays) z second an dat first.

Why? Because I think were better as a TEAM with dat and z both at center. If we have the legit wingers to play with them. And since holland has no balls to buyout Franzen put him and Weiss on the third together to be the most expensive third line ever lol.

And as I typed this I forgot about Sheahan....FRIGGEN CRAP WE HAVE A LOT OF FORWARDS BUT YET NO GOOD WINGERS YET(besides nyquist).

Edited by DeGraa55

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Unless a guy like Weber is being shopped, I say going after Niskanen or Boyle should be the priority. Boyle only if he can't get Niskanen. At least Boyle can bridge the gap to the kids taking over the blueline.

So when our D corps looks like this for the next 5 years:

Kronwall - Niskanen

Dekeyser - Smith

Ericsson - ?

?

What will you do with: Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen? Lose them for nothing? There is only room for 1. We are still lacking a true top pairing shut-down guy.

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So when our D corps looks like this for the next 5 years:

Kronwall - Niskanen

Dekeyser - Smith

Ericsson - ?

?

What will you do with: Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Jensen? Lose them for nothing? There is only room for 1. We are still lacking a true top pairing shut-down guy.

You mean, aside from the one you've got chilling on our third pair below Brendan Smith on the depth chart? lol. How did Ericsson being injured get him demoted to the third pair? He went from our most reliable defensive defenseman to Brain Lashoff because of one signing?

Edit: Also, even if we sign Niskanen he wouldn't play on the top pair with Kronwall, since they're pretty much the EXACT same type of player, good offensively and adequate defensively. They're also both undersized for their position. You're far more likely to see Kronall with Ericsson, and Niskanen with Dekeyser. That would make all Brendan's supporters upset, but out of the five he is CLEARLY the fifth best, so he'd be right where he needed to be.

Edited by kipwinger
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Holmgren is known for awful trades, lets go after Simmonds lol

I would give up any prospect for Wayne simmonds, he is exactly what we need

What I think we. Can really use is another penalty killing defenseman the only good one we have is Ericsson and maybe you can throw kronwall in there even though he gets caught chasing

Edited by cnot19

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I would give up any prospect for Wayne simmonds, he is exactly what we need

What I think we. Can really use is another penalty killing defenseman the only good one we have is Ericsson and maybe you can throw kronwall in there even though he gets caught chasing

Holland hasn't been known to be a great trader either. I think Holmgren and Holland both spent many years in elementary trading their deserts for brussel sprouts and not realizing they got had.

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First we need to unload

DO NOT resign: The obvious (sammy bert cleary etc), Quincey

Find a way to trade: Andersson Kindl Lashoff

Sign: Alfie

Legwand doesn't fit especially with Weiss coming back, it's a shame we gave up so much for him but maybe we can get something for his rights

Seriously our forward depth is ridiculous right now especially with certain players out of options, we should not get another forward, especially with the growth of some of our players

Z-Pav-Abdelkader (only because Babcock loves it)

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Alfie

Miller-Helm-Glendening

Ferraro/Jurco

Jurco can't even fit in the lineup even with those moves... It's really too bad we signed Glendening because it's so easy to find players like him, we could have put Abdelkader on that fourth line because it makes more sense..

Then on D

Kronwall-Smith

Ericsson-RH shot/Sproul

Dekeyser-Ouellet

Ouellet has had success at every level, including WJC, the Q, AHL, and even in the NHL with his call-ups. He looks better than half of our D on some nights. He's earned his spot.

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Holland hasn't been known to be a great trader either. I think Holmgren and Holland both spent many years in elementary trading their deserts for brussel sprouts and not realizing they got had.

Comparing Holmgren to Holland is just further proof that you have an agenda and there is no limit to what facts and opinions you'll twist to get there.

We get it. You hate hate Holland. You hate that he traded Jarnkrok. And on and on and on.

I feel like, right now, if Holland were able to trade his receeding hairline to Phoenix for Yandle, you'd have something negative to say about it.

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You mean, aside from the one you've got chilling on our third pair below Brendan Smith on the depth chart? lol. How did Ericsson being injured get him demoted to the third pair? He went from our most reliable defensive defenseman to Brain Lashoff because of one signing?

Edit: Also, even if we sign Niskanen he wouldn't play on the top pair with Kronwall, since they're pretty much the EXACT same type of player, good offensively and adequate defensively. They're also both undersized for their position. You're far more likely to see Kronall with Ericsson, and Niskanen with Dekeyser. That would make all Brendan's supporters upset, but out of the five he is CLEARLY the fifth best, so he'd be right where he needed to be.

But he does have a point. There's a strong chance that at least two (maybe three) of Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, and Backman becoem ery good NHLers sooner rather than later. Where do they fit?

If I'm Holland I'm including Smith or Ericsson in a deal for a RH top pairing D man that can run a PP and move the puck. That's the only way we can get that coveted #1 or #2 guy and keep spots open for the kids.

Also, Kindl is gone. You can tell based on Babcock and Holland's comments regarding the defence.

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But he does have a point. There's a strong chance that at least two (maybe three) of Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, and Backman becoem ery good NHLers sooner rather than later. Where do they fit?

If I'm Holland I'm including Smith or Ericsson in a deal for a RH top pairing D man that can run a PP and move the puck. That's the only way we can get that coveted #1 or #2 guy and keep spots open for the kids.

Also, Kindl is gone. You can tell based on Babcock and Holland's comments regarding the defence.

Check out my proposed lineup in the other offseason thread to see exactly what I'd do with the defense. We wouldn't lose a single young d-man either.

Spoiler Alert! It involves moving our 1st, Smith, and either Helm or Abby for a hometown guy who wants off his current team and has already identified Detroit as a place he'd waive his no trade clause to go to. The same guy who was nearly had for two packages which weren't as good as the one I just proposed.

Edited by kipwinger

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Check out my proposed lineup in the other offseason thread to see exactly what I'd do with the defense. We wouldn't lose a single you d-man either.

Spoiler Alert! It involves moving our 1st, Smith, and either Helm or Abby for a hometown guy who wants off his current team and has already identified Detroit as a place he's waive his no trade clause to go to. The same guy who was nearly had for two packages which weren't as good as the one I just proposed.

Yeah. I'd do that. 100%.

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So would they. It's Holland I'm not sure about. He's loyal to a fault.

Holland's notorious for keeping current players or bringing former players back because, in addition to loyalty, he feels like "he knows what he's getting with them". He's dusted off this quote on several occasions in the past.

I'd say the uncertainty (How good will Smith be? How good will that 1st be? How many good years does Kesler have left?) would be more of a turn off for Holland than loyalty.

But yes, Kelser's still in his prime (maybe a touch past it) and this would be the closest thing to a 1996 style Shanahan deal this generation of Wings would see.

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I hope Mantha plays his way on to the team next year. That'll eliminate any questions in our top 9 and save our minds from being lost when Holland doesn't get Moulson, Vanek or Gaborik this offseason.

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Holland's notorious for keeping current players or bringing former players back because, in addition to loyalty, he feels like "he knows what he's getting with them". He's dusted off this quote on several occasions in the past.

I'd say the uncertainty (How good will Smith be? How good will that 1st be? How many good years does Kesler have left?) would be more of a turn off for Holland than loyalty.

But yes, Kelser's still in his prime (maybe a touch past it) and this would be the closest thing to a 1996 style Shanahan deal this generation of Wings would see.

I agree with everything you've said here. And still I make this trade 100 times out of 100. It's a no brainer, for both sides.

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I agree with everything you've said here. And still I make this trade 100 times out of 100. It's a no brainer, for both sides.

I love Kesler, though I'd be just as happy with Moulson or Vanek. Plus I dont trust Holland with trades anymore, he's had a tendency to overpay.

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:lol: Holland overpays in trade yet tries to under pay the UFA's out there... I think he has it backwards.

That being said, I would also take Kesler for Helm, Smith and 1st. But as I mentioned in the other thread, what about throwing Edler in? What would have to be added to make that blockbuster? I personally would throw Franzen in along with Almqvist.

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:lol: Holland overpays in trade yet tries to under pay the UFA's out there... I think he has it backwards.

That being said, I would also take Kesler for Helm, Smith and 1st. But as I mentioned in the other thread, what about throwing Edler in? What would have to be added to make that blockbuster? I personally would throw Franzen in along with Almqvist.

Adding in Franzen for elder? No that wouldn't get it done. If any GM actually watches Franzen play they'd realize just how little worth he has.

LeftWinger likes this

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Am I the only one who thinks trading Helm, Smith and a 1st for Kesler is insane? With his style of play, i'll be shocked if he can play at the level he has (when healthy) for 4 or 5 years. If we're gonna be trading young NHL level players, Kesler is not the idea candidate. Trade for someone entering their prime, or stick with what they have and reassess at the deadline. We're finally rid of Cleary. We don't need another player whose body will start to break down on him in the next few years. Especially at that price.

Edit: Also, with the improvement Smith showed over the course of just one full season, I think it would be crazy to give him up now. Also unlike Kesler, most of Helm's injuries have been freak injuries. We can't give up on him when he is finally healthy and is only now gonna get a healthy summer of training in.

Edited by marcaractac

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Am I the only one who thinks trading Helm, Smith and a 1st for Kesler is insane? With his style of play, i'll be shocked if he can play at the level he has (when healthy) for 4 or 5 years. If we're gonna be trading young NHL level players, Kesler is not the idea candidate. Trade for someone entering their prime, or stick with what they have and reassess at the deadline. We're finally rid of Cleary. We don't need another player whose body will start to break down on him in the next few years. Especially at that price.

Edit: Also, with the improvement Smith showed over the course of just one full season, I think it would be crazy to give him up now. Also unlike Kesler, most of Helm's injuries have been freak injuries. We can't give up on him when he is finally healthy and is only now gonna get a healthy summer of training in.

"Freak" injuries or not it's still a trend I don't see ending. But I do agree I don't want smith traded. He was our best five in five defenseman.

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Am I the only one who thinks trading Helm, Smith and a 1st for Kesler is insane? With his style of play, i'll be shocked if he can play at the level he has (when healthy) for 4 or 5 years. If we're gonna be trading young NHL level players, Kesler is not the idea candidate. Trade for someone entering their prime, or stick with what they have and reassess at the deadline. We're finally rid of Cleary. We don't need another player whose body will start to break down on him in the next few years. Especially at that price.

Edit: Also, with the improvement Smith showed over the course of just one full season, I think it would be crazy to give him up now. Also unlike Kesler, most of Helm's injuries have been freak injuries. We can't give up on him when he is finally healthy and is only now gonna get a healthy summer of training in.

It's not a matter of giving up on anyone. It's a matter of changing the dynamic of the team because the same old thing just isn't working. Also, Kesler is 29 and has played in 77 or more games 7 out of 10 years in the league, only dipping below that in the lockout year, his rookie year (when he likely didn't dress all 82 games), and one other time about six years ago. He only missed 5 games this year...with a broken finger...suffered in the Olympics. That's a higher rate of games played per season than Datsyuk or Zetterberg, nevermind Helm. It's not like he's Vincent Lecavalier or anything. He's also under contract for two more years at 5 million dollars...so he's not exactly breaking the bank.

No matter how you cut it, we're a MUCH better team with Niskanen and Kesler rather than Helm, Smith and a 1st. And you're not giving up the world. One (or all) of Sproul, Ouellet, Marchenko, and Backman projects as high or higher than Smith and Sheahan is probably already better than Helm.

Plus, how do you not like the size and speed of a team with Kesler, Sheahan, Jurco, Abby, and Franzen (and in a year or so Mantha). Just written down it's tougher to play against than the team we actually iced for the last five years or so. Everybody always wants to get younger, faster, and harder to play against. Here's how we can do it, and it will only cost Helm, Smith, and a 1st. Hell it may even cost you less (but I'd gladly go this high).

Edited by kipwinger

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