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Andy Pred 48

Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

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We trade for an impact player right this second, and the kids are still kids. You're suggesting Holland make a trade solely for the sake of making one. That's not how you win. Ask the flyers how fun that is. Or the Rangers for the past 20 years.

The effort will be made to win as soon as possible. It has to be within reason. Not to go make trades for the sake of making them.

You're missing the point.

Dat is signed for three more years.

So are we rebuilding in those three years or trying to win a cup? What's the direction....based on Hollands moves he is trying to do both and failing.

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I expect Holland to make a big push this offseason. This will be a push for guys like Kronner, Z, and Dats.

I agree. People just need to realize said push might not happen until the deadline.

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I expect Holland to make a big push this offseason. This will be a push for guys like Kronner, Z, and Dats.

That's what I'm hoping for. We have guys that can be traded and cap space. With the way the kids played this is the time start getting ready for a cup run.

I agree. People just need to realize said push might not happen until the deadline.

Unfortunately that may be the case. But the cost in prospects seems to be higher at the deadline...a trade should be made this offseason IMO.

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That's what I'm hoping for. We have guys that can be traded and cap space. With the way the kids played this is the time start getting ready for a cup run.

Unfortunately that may be the case. But the cost in prospects seems to be higher at the deadline...a trade should be made this offseason IMO.

If the right deal is out there, it will be made. It has already been said he'd like a top 4 dman and scoring winger. Whether it comes through UFA, trade, or from within has yet to be seen. In the end, the dead weight is gone. If he rolls with the kids (which is what most wanted and ripped on him for) people will still complain.

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If the right deal is out there, it will be made. It has already been said he'd like a top 4 dman and scoring winger. Whether it comes through UFA, trade, or from within has yet to be seen. In the end, the dead weight is gone. If he rolls with the kids (which is what most wanted and ripped on him for) people will still complain.

He also said he wants to build from within. So, much like a drunken sea captain, his course is muddled.

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He also said he wants to build from within. So, much like a drunken sea captain, his course is muddled.

Now you're just criticizing for the sake of criticizing. Of course any GM would be open to all avenues to make their team better. Also, Holland never said he would make a trade, another poster was speculating.

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He also said he wants to build from within. So, much like a drunken sea captain, his course is muddled.

Exactly. Build from within, add pieces that can help if the price is right along the way. When the kids in the lineup show they can be consistent in helping the team, then dip into the prospect pool to make the moves to fill holes in the lineup.

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You keep saying this, what reason do you have to think he'd be a disaster? The kid is already better than all but (maybe) two of our defensemen. It's not like he's an unknown quantity. He's a young d-man just entering his prime, who has played his way onto the top pairing of a good defense, on a very good team. He plays on the PK, PP, and has put up points on two different teams.

You know how many defensemen we have who have put up 48 pts. a season (Niskanen's numbers this year)? One...Kronwall (career high 51 pts). You know how many defensemen we have who have put up 35 pts. in a season (Niskanen's second best year)? Two...Kronwall and Quincey. You know how many defensemen we have who have scored more than Niskanen did his rookie year? Two...Kronwall and Quincey.

Even if he never improved from his rookie year (which he obviously has) he's still better than every other puck mover on our team not named Kronwall.

And you keep insisting he won't be a disaster ... He's had ONE really good season , its hardly a proven track record ...and he's taken advantage of the extra ice time with all the injuries

He's better than 2 of our dman? I'd say kronwall is better than him , dekeyser is way ahead of him At the same age and if much rather have Ericsson and his size than niskanen

Has it ever occurred to you he got 48 pts playing all that extra Icetime due to all the injuries? Playing with Crosby and malkin, Neal etc ...

I wouldn't expect him to get 48 pts here ... Again he's had one really good year it's not worth the risk of being stuck with him for 5-6 years at 5-7 cap hit

No thanks ... I'll let someone else be the sucker and sign him ... Just cause we need a right handed defensemen doesn't mean we of after the first ufa defense net available

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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And you keep insisting he won't be a disaster ... He's had ONE really good season , its hardly a proven track record ...and he's taken advantage of the extra ice time with all the injuries

He's better than 2 of our dman? I'd say kronwall is better than him , dekeyser is way ahead of him At the same age and if much rather have Ericsson and his size than niskanen

Has it ever occurred to you he got 48 pts playing all that extra Icetime due to all the injuries? Playing with Crosby and malkin, Neal etc ...

I wouldn't expect him to get 48 pts here ... Again he's had one really good year it's not worth the risk of being stuck with him for 5-6 years at 5-7 cap hit

No thanks ... I'll let someone else be the sucker and sign him ... Just cause we need a right handed defensemen doesn't mean we of after the first ufa defense net available

You say he has had just one good year. But if you have watched him, he has been getting better and better each season. His big year this year is not some out of nowhere fluke. You can slowly see it coming over the 2 seasons before hand. He was really good last season as well. The point totals weren't high because it was a shortened season. he went from a 21 point season a couple years ago, to being on pace for 30+ last season (if it were an 82 game season) and 46 this year. This shows he is coming into his own and getting better. It isn't a coincidence that he is right at that age when defensemen typically break out, as it takes them longer than forwards.

I hate how whenever a player is good in Pittsburgh, it is because of Crosby and Malkin. But guess what? Crosby and Malkin benefit from having great puck moving D to get the puck to them. People make it seem like the 2 of them do all the work, and a couple people just happen to touch the puck before they score. Not the case. Guess what? This team gets Niskanen, and our forwards that are on the ice with him will get more scoring chances than they have been.

Edited by marcaractac

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I hate how whenever a player is good in Pittsburgh, it is because of Crosby and Malkin. But guess what? Crosby and Malkin benefit from having great puck moving D to get the puck to them. People make it seem like the 2 of them do all the work, and a couple people just happen to touch the puck before they score. Not the case. Guess what? This team gets Niskanen, and our forwards that are on the ice with him will get more scoring chances than they have been.

I don't understand it either, yes those two are the two best players in the world but it's not like other sports where superstars don't need the team. It all starts with a transistioning game and Niskanen, Letang are very good at that this has almost nothing to do with the two superstars.

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Now you're just criticizing for the sake of criticizing. Of course any GM would be open to all avenues to make their team better. Also, Holland never said he would make a trade, another poster was speculating.

The point I am trying to make is that he's been sending completely mixed signals for years now. Examples:

2013-14 trade deadline:

He said "(The Red Wings are) not interested in paying a premium (top young players, high-end prospects and/or a first-round pick) for a rental player."

Reality: They sent one of the best prospects at a thin area of the depth chart for a UFA.

The last three offseasons:

He said: "We are looking to make a trade or sign a top 6 winger and a right handed top 4 defenseman"

Reality: The Wings haven't added a real impact player either through trade or through free agency since Hossa (free agency 2009) and Stuart (trade 2008), respectively.

Last season: Youth movement

He said 'We will be leaning on our young player a lot more".

Reality: It wasn't until a string of injuries forced their hand did the Wings start to use the young NHL ready talent they had. Remember the opening day roster featured Bertuzzi and Cleary as starters.

I could go on with many more examples of this type of management, but lets be honest, anything Holland says should be taken with a pound of salt.

Edited by Shaman

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Niskanen would be acquired to become a top 4 addition, our best D man is Kronwall but I think Matt could do a better job with playing PP QB and Kronwall could finally focus on Kronwalling and shutting down other players again.

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Niskanen isn't a #1 D. It would be stupid to pay him like one just because he's the best free agent D.

Agreed. Nobody is saying that he should get paid like Chara, Suter, or Weber. And he won't. He should get paid about 5.5 million. Which is a slight overpayment, but in today's market, with few other options, that's what a defeseman with his skill set will make. We either 1) can pay it, 2) stick with what we have, or 3) spend more money than the overpayment for Niskanen on a cheap alternative. Those are the options and two of them don't seem to be working too well for us.

He'd be making about as much as Duncan Keith, who signed his 5.5 million dollar contract extension two months into the 2009 season. Up to that point, his previous career best was 44 pts. and 32 pts.

Wisniewski signed a similar sized contract after putting up similar numbers and playing similar minutes. So did Erhoff.

It's likely Niskanen doesn't become a Duncan Keith, Chicago got a steal by signing him long term and letting him develop. But he'll likely be as good as Wisniewski or Erhoff. And both of those guys are worth their contracts. Quality, big minute, puck moving d-men don't grow on trees.

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The point I am trying to make is that he's been sending completely mixed signals for years now. Examples:

2013-14 trade deadline:

He said "(The Red Wings are) not interested in paying a premium (top young players, high-end prospects and/or a first-round pick) for a rental player."

Reality: They sent one of the best prospects at a thin area of the depth chart for a UFA.

The last three offseasons:

He said: "We are looking to make a trade or sign a top 6 winger and a right handed top 4 defenseman"

Reality: The Wings haven't added a real impact player either through trade or through free agency since Hossa (free agency 2009) and Stuart (trade 2008), respectively.

Last season: Youth movement

He said 'We will be leaning on our young player a lot more".

Reality: It wasn't until a string of injuries forced their hand did the Wings start to use the young NHL ready talent they had. Remember the opening day roster featured Bertuzzi and Cleary as starters.

I could go on with many more examples of this type of management, but lets be honest, anything Holland says should be taken with a pound of salt.

When you say "impact player" it appears what you really mean is that "they haven't added a STAR"" since Hossa. Weiss, Alfredsson, and Legwand were all bona fide top six forwards their entire careers, and based on Alfie's 49 pts and Legwand's 51 pts. this season they've still got plenty of impact. Weiss was hurt, oh well, no knock on his "not being an impact player". Even Quincey was a legit top four defenseman when we acquired him, coming off big minute high production seasons with two different teams.

I love acquiring stars as much as the next guy. I'm the one pulling for a Ryan Kesler trade. But it's unfair to suggest that Holland doesn't bring in "impact players". He does. He just doesn't bring in stars. Mostly because there aren't many of them to go around.

Instead of worrying yourself over the lack of star deals. I'd ask myself this. Why is it that every player that we acquire produces less when he gets here, and why is it that every player we lose produces more after they're gone?

Now that's a question for the ages.

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How does signing Niskanen to 5.5 affect team chemistry when Kronwall's making 4.5?

I know this seems like a stupid question. But it could be a thing,

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How does signing Niskanen to 5.5 affect team chemistry when Kronwall's making 4.5?

I know this seems like a stupid question. But it could be a thing,

It's a legit question. For years that's been the Red Wings way. I'd like to think it would matter about as much as when Hossa came in and made more than Hank or Pav, but who knows.

I do know this though. If the Wings continue to deny that market/contract inflation pertains to them they'll continue to miss valuable free agents. And as they slip down the standings the free agents are even less likely to sign with us, and will require more money if they do. Vicious circle.

I'd hope Kronwall is professional enough to understand that. Lidstrom certainly understood that in order to ice the best possible team he couldn't continue to remain the team's highest paid player into old age.

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You say he has had just one good year. But if you have watched him, he has been getting better and better each season. His big year this year is not some out of nowhere fluke. You can slowly see it coming over the 2 seasons before hand. He was really good last season as well. The point totals weren't high because it was a shortened season. he went from a 21 point season a couple years ago, to being on pace for 30+ last season (if it were an 82 game season) and 46 this year. This shows he is coming into his own and getting better. It isn't a coincidence that he is right at that age when defensemen typically break out, as it takes them longer than forwards.

I hate how whenever a player is good in Pittsburgh, it is because of Crosby and Malkin. But guess what? Crosby and Malkin benefit from having great puck moving D to get the puck to them. People make it seem like the 2 of them do all the work, and a couple people just happen to touch the puck before they score. Not the case. Guess what? This team gets Niskanen, and our forwards that are on the ice with him will get more scoring chances than they have been.

In all honesty how much have you watched niskanen? Your a wings fan so I'm assuming you watch all wings games and catch pens when you can and maybe some playoff games .... And these years you catch them I find it seriously hard that your looking out for niskanen and paying attention to his game ... Seriously doubt it ... Kudos to you if you did

You hate it when people say players are better with malkin and Crosby? Well facts are facts man .... Did chris Kunitz ever put up the same numbers elsewhere before going to Pittsburgh? Pascal dupuis?

It's just a fact playing with those guys will help you get better stats and it helped him getting more responsibilities and ice time with the injuries Pittsburgh had this season

I'm not saying niskanen is garbage I just don't think so highly of him as you do ... I guess luckily for me since orpik is a ufa I dont expect Pittsburgh to resign him and they'll try and keep niskanen

Agreed. Nobody is saying that he should get paid like Chara, Suter, or Weber. And he won't. He should get paid about 5.5 million. Which is a slight overpayment, but in today's market, with few other options, that's what a defeseman with his skill set will make. We either 1) can pay it, 2) stick with what we have, or 3) spend more money than the overpayment for Niskanen on a cheap alternative. Those are the options and two of them don't seem to be working too well for us.

He'd be making about as much as Duncan Keith, who signed his 5.5 million dollar contract extension two months into the 2009 season. Up to that point, his previous career best was 44 pts. and 32 pts.

Wisniewski signed a similar sized contract after putting up similar numbers and playing similar minutes. So did Erhoff.

It's likely Niskanen doesn't become a Duncan Keith, Chicago got a steal by signing him long term and letting him develop. But he'll likely be as good as Wisniewski or Erhoff. And both of those guys are worth their contracts. Quality, big minute, puck moving d-men don't grow on trees.

It's a certainty niskanen doesn't become a Duncan Keith ... Niskanen is nowhere near worth 5.5 per

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In all honesty how much have you watched niskanen? Your a wings fan so I'm assuming you watch all wings games and catch pens when you can and maybe some playoff games .... And these years you catch them I find it seriously hard that your looking out for niskanen and paying attention to his game ... Seriously doubt it ... Kudos to you if you did

You hate it when people say players are better with malkin and Crosby? Well facts are facts man .... Did chris Kunitz ever put up the same numbers elsewhere before going to Pittsburgh? Pascal dupuis?

It's just a fact playing with those guys will help you get better stats and it helped him getting more responsibilities and ice time with the injuries Pittsburgh had this season

I'm not saying niskanen is garbage I just don't think so highly of him as you do ... I guess luckily for me since orpik is a ufa I dont expect Pittsburgh to resign him and they'll try and keep niskanen

It's a certainty niskanen doesn't become a Duncan Keith ... Niskanen is nowhere near worth 5.5 per

Alright man, you win. You've said it enough that it's finally sunk in. Niskanen sucks because you say so (over and over and over again).

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...

Instead of worrying yourself over the lack of star deals. I'd ask myself this. Why is it that every player that we acquire produces less when he gets here, and why is it that every player we lose produces more after they're gone?

Now that's a question for the ages.

It's not actually true though.

Bert's numbers have been in line with what he did prior to coming here, and about what you'd expect with an aging player. Same thing with Alfie. White's first season here was one of his best. Hossa had one of his better years. Modano was at the end of his career and got injured. JWilly and Sammy got injured and were never able to find a place after. Weiss got injured, and the verdict is still out. Tootoo's numbers were down a bit (a lot from his last year in Nashville), but numbers aren't really his game anyway. So I think the only real question is why Quincey can't seem to score in our system.

Of the players who left, Leino (who wasn't even here long enough to establish himself) had one good year, Hossa has been about the same, Kopy improved a bit but no more than you'd expect given his limited role here, Hudler is about the same, Flip was good in his first year in TB but not better than his good year here, we'll see if he's any more consistent than he was his last three seasons here. Sammy improved briefly in a bigger role, but nothing major. Brunner was worse in his first year in NJ, though like Leino he wasn't here long enough. I think everyone else is out of the league now.

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It's not actually true though.

Bert's numbers have been in line with what he did prior to coming here, and about what you'd expect with an aging player. Same thing with Alfie. White's first season here was one of his best. Hossa had one of his better years. Modano was at the end of his career and got injured. JWilly and Sammy got injured and were never able to find a place after. Weiss got injured, and the verdict is still out. Tootoo's numbers were down a bit (a lot from his last year in Nashville), but numbers aren't really his game anyway. So I think the only real question is why Quincey can't seem to score in our system.

Of the players who left, Leino (who wasn't even here long enough to establish himself) had one good year, Hossa has been about the same, Kopy improved a bit but no more than you'd expect given his limited role here, Hudler is about the same, Flip was good in his first year in TB but not better than his good year here, we'll see if he's any more consistent than he was his last three seasons here. Sammy improved briefly in a bigger role, but nothing major. Brunner was worse in his first year in NJ, though like Leino he wasn't here long enough. I think everyone else is out of the league now.

Right but you can't dismiss marginal the improvements made by Quincey (when he left), Filppula, Hudler, Kopecky, and Sammuelsson (when he left) as being in essence "too small to matter" but then use equally small improvements (or sustainments) made by Alfie, Hossa, or Bert as proof of the opposite. If one sample is too moderate a change to matter, then so is the other. I'd agree about the injured players and short-timers though, and to give credence to your position I'd say that had his role remained the same Legwand would likely have sustained the level of offense he'd had in Nashville as well.

None of which was my point, however, because I was responding to a guy who said Holland hadn't made an impact move since Hossa. My point was to suggest that our system has not been conducive to large amounts of offense in quite a while. So one shouldn't be surprised if guys like Legwand, Alfie, Weiss (injured, I get it), Quincey, or anyone else don't have the "impact" that they might have on another team. Doesn't mean they're not quality players or high profile moves. It means that their numbers suffer as a result of team philosophy and system which works against big offense. It's also not a dig on the team, system, or philosophy either. It's an acknowledgement of those things' effect on offensive production.

Edit: Hossa had his sixth best offense season in Detroit. So I'm not even going call that a sustainment. He's had better offensive production on 3 of the 4 other teams he played on, and the only one he didn't was his 12 games in Pittsburgh.

Edited by kipwinger

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nyqvististhefuture: i could be wrong but i think you underestimate the circumstances around contract valuation. Keith and Niskanen are pretty unfair in terms of comparison for several reasons. A) 5.5 million in 2009 > 5.5 million in 2014 B) takes less to resign a player than to pick them from UFA C) Less pressure when signing an extension mid season rather than off season talks (no competition) D) home grown talent vs talent who is looking for a home to grow. After all that i still think most would agree that Keith is obviously better (including at the time he signed the contract) but to say Niskanen is not worth the money solely based on comparison to Keith is unfair. I agree that it is risky to be tied down to a somewhat "unproven" player however this complacency has got us where we are which is bounced relatively quietly. I'm not saying i want Holland (i love Holland) to be a Holmgren or anything but even with ALL Holmgren's questionable moves, his team is still arguably as good as ours. In regards to Niskanen i think he could be a good pickup, he basically adds Quincey's late season improved defense with slightly less than Kronwall's point production all while not being 5'10" and 180 pounds and has a RH shot. As a disclaimer i am still on the fence about Niskanen, i could easily argue in favor of him or against him while making valid points either way. This is why I am glad my decisions about hockey are not what will be putting food in my mouth.

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Hossa put up better numbers when he was younger. Since he left, he had one season where he had more points but hasn't come close to the 40 goals he scored his one year in Detroit. The other players mentioned didn't really do significantly better after leaving or worse after coming here unless injuries were an issue.

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