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Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

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Ummm I guess we'd all have to be massive idiots to not realize that Nill and Yzerman are or will be great GMs most likely because of what they learned working for Holland.

Reading some of the s*** on here? Some of you are off the friggin hook.

Don't like it, don't read it problem solved.

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The only thing they really lack is a top 10 pick that's a "guaranteed" star like Sequin, Toews, Doughty, etc.

Exactly! But they still manage to find stars on par with those guys much later in the draft, much more impressive, it doesnt take a genius GM to pick an obvious guy at the top. Though as a Lions fan through the Matt Millen era, maybe I should take back that statement lol.

They got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

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They got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

I disagree, I could name a ton of good to great players they have drafted in late rounds, but we all know who they are. Saying it was lucky is just completely dismissive.

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They got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

We took guys like Datsyuk in late rounds because we knew we could. No one else scouted him. Or like with Zetterberg, Hakan saw something no one else did. I can't remember but wasn't Zberg like really underweight kid when we drafted him? Or something like that.

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We took guys like Datsyuk in late rounds because we knew we could. No one else scouted him. Or like with Zetterberg, Hakan saw something no one else did. I can't remember but wasn't Zberg like really underweight kid when we drafted him? Or something like that.

As was datsyuk. They were "small soft euros" and they turned into two of the best nil players of their time.

Other teams get lucky with one guy on their team drafted late that turned into a star. The wings however have stocked the shelves with great talents I'n late rounds and won a cup. We have nyquist, Tatar, and possibly others coming up now that "we just got lucky with" and we had filppula and hudler before too. We are very good at late round drafts and we don't have to rank to win. Its the one thing I can't knock Holland for.

That being said I think he shouldn't have been extended still.

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As was datsyuk. They were "small soft euros" and they turned into two of the best nil players of their time.

Other teams get lucky with one guy on their team drafted late that turned into a star. The wings however have stocked the shelves with great talents I'n late rounds and won a cup. We have nyquist, Tatar, and possibly others coming up now that "we just got lucky with" and we had filppula and hudler before too. We are very good at late round drafts and we don't have to rank to win. Its the one thing I can't knock Holland for.

That being said I think he shouldn't have been extended still.

But like I asked earlier in this thread, then who do you want?

There's not going to be any good GMs on the chopping block this year. Maybe Poile if things go bad? I really doubt Illitch is going to hire some upstart nobody from somewhere else, and there's no one in our organization that can fill Holland's shoes at the moment. If Nill or Yzerman were still around this would be a different story. In that sense maybe we should be blame Mr. I, not Holland, for not letting Holland go sooner and promoting one of those guys.

People are mad we're not letting him walk, but forget that we have to replace him with someone. And GM of the Red Wings are HUGE shoes to fill.

Edited by number9
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If you get a world class talent late you get lucky, period. Probably half of the top players in any given year are taken in the top 7% of the draft, if not more. I'm not really counting the bribery they were willing to do in the 90s to get the Russians. In the last 20 years they drafted 2 proven elite players late.

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If you get a world class talent late you get lucky, period. Probably half of the top players in any given year are taken in the top 7% of the draft, if not more. I'm not really counting the bribery they were willing to do in the 90s to get the Russians. In the last 20 years they drafted 2 proven elite players late.

Except other teams pull out maybe 1-2 dark horses a decade and we're riddled with them.

Heck I guess we're just really lucky!

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If you get a world class talent late you get lucky, period. Probably half of the top players in any given year are taken in the top 7% of the draft, if not more. I'm not really counting the bribery they were willing to do in the 90s to get the Russians. In the last 20 years they drafted 2 proven elite players late.

Except other teams pull out maybe 1-2 dark horses a decade and we're riddled with them.

Heck I guess we're just really lucky!

2 in the last decade +.

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2 in the last decade +.

Right and I was pointing out, Tatar, Nyquist, filppula were all drafted later. Find me a team with a better track record for late round drafts. Sure we could rank and get top 10 picks for 5 years. We know that won't happen though

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2 in the last decade +.

Ridiculously dismissive....plus I don't get why we cant count the Russians of the late 80's, early 90's. Every team could have done what the Wings did, some did. The year Fedorov and Vladi were drafted, that was the same year Bure and Yashin were drafted.

If you go back a bit farther then 20 years (i'm not count anything in round 1 and 2):

Lidstrom - 3rd Round

Konstantinov - 11th round

Fedorov - 4th Round

Zetterberg - 7th round

Datsyuk - 6th Round

Nyquist - 4th round (not elite star yet, IMO will be soon)

Osgood - 3rd Round (say what you want, will likely be HOF when its all said and done)

Holmstrom - 10th Round (definitely not a quote unquote elite player, had his faults, but a damn steal at 10th round)

Franzen - 3rd Round (not an "elite" talent, but the guy has had a very good career)

Filppula - 3rd Round (see above)

To say 2 elite talents in 20+ years which was just luck pretty much just sh**ting on the job the Wings have done in scouting, evaluation, and grooming talent over the past few decades.

I haven't looked, but I don't think another team out there will have this kind of track record. Plus, I'm sure im missing a ton of good players, not to mention all the second round picks and late 1st round picks (ie. Kronwall). Go back and look at plenty of drafts, many many second rounders and late first rounders end of being duds.

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It's not s***ting on anything, it's honest.

Start with '09, go back 15 years, find higher end players the Wings have taken after the second round.

Nyquist is probably going to be a top 6 player, he may or may not be more than a complimentary 60 point player. Franzen is Franzen. Filppula is inconsistent from year to year. Zetterberg in 99, Datsyuk in 98. So 2 elite players, 3 good guys who aren't elite and in 2 cases aren't even that good for stretches, and some role players. Sure it's better than some teams, but there are people who act like the Wings get some star player late in the draft every couple years, and they knew for a fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk were going to be stars. Neither is true.

The reason I'm not looking at the older drafts is that the rules have changed completely. Russians weren't drafted int he 80's because they had to be snuck out of the country. Not every player was willing to do that, and it took a lot of resources to get the ones who did want to come. They had to have contacts in Russia, ind the right people to bribe and spend the money to do it, and find a way to get the player, and his family in some cases, out of the country. The Wings were one of the few teams that had an owner who was able and willing to commit to that.

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It's not s***ting on anything, it's honest.

Start with '09, go back 15 years, find higher end players the Wings have taken after the second round.

Nyquist is probably going to be a top 6 player, he may or may not be more than a complimentary 60 point player. Franzen is Franzen. Filppula is inconsistent from year to year. Zetterberg in 99, Datsyuk in 98. So 2 elite players, 3 good guys who aren't elite and in 2 cases aren't even that good for stretches, and some role players. Sure it's better than some teams, but there are people who act like the Wings get some star player late in the draft every couple years, and they knew for a fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk were going to be stars. Neither is true.

The reason I'm not looking at the older drafts is that the rules have changed completely. Russians weren't drafted int he 80's because they had to be snuck out of the country. Not every player was willing to do that, and it took a lot of resources to get the ones who did want to come. They had to have contacts in Russia, ind the right people to bribe and spend the money to do it, and find a way to get the player, and his family in some cases, out of the country. The Wings were one of the few teams that had an owner who was able and willing to commit to that.

The red wings are far and away the best draft team and its widely recognized as such even by other teams announcers. We don't get high end draft spots cause we never miss the playoffs. So no we didn't get a toews, Kane, ovie, Malkin, Crosby, Tavares, or so on. We make our own superstars. Nyquist WILL be a star, so there you go, Tatar may be a grind it top 6 tough as nails type player, but the goose is loose, and everyone knows it. We won a cup through the draft basically. All these teams tanking to win... The same three teams keep winning and the sabres, islanders, Panthers, oilers, as well as others always getting these top 5 picks but somehow never win are getting top end talents every year. We keep winning without tanking.

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Talk about overhype ...

Nyquist could turn into a star but it's also possible him only becoming a top 6 contributor and for me that's good enough.neither Nyquist nor Tatar will turn into Z or Pasha.

It's funny reading how the team keeps winning although the best they've done is barely making the playoffs and not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years.

The sabers will have a very dangerous team in a few years and the isles where held back by an incompetent management and a penny pinching owner.

The reality is also really simple the Holland will need some homerun drafts and prepare the Wings much better for the post Z and Pasha era, than he did with the post Lidas one.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Talk about overhype ...Nyquist could turn into a star but it's also possible him only becoming a top 6 contributor and for me that's good enough.neither Nyquist nor Tatar will turn into Z or Pasha.It's funny reading how the team keeps winning although the best they've done is barely making the playoffs and not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years.The sabers will have a very dangerous team in a few years and the isles where held back by an incompetent management and a penny pinching owner.The reality is also really simple the Holland will need some homerun drafts and prepare the Wings much better for the post Z and Pasha era, than he did with the post Lidas one.

I remember when z and d would never turn into Stevie and feds...

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You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round. Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th. Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks. Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second. Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.


I remember when z and d would never turn into Stevie and feds...

They didn't. Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.

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You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round. Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th. Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks. Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second. Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.

They didn't. Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.

Ya, two of the best players in the league aren't comparable to two of the best players of the league. They were in a much higher scoring league then the one z and d grew up in, no one will ever rack up the points those guys did anymore. But we replaced them with some "possible top 6 complimentary pieces"

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You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round. Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th. Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks. Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second. Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.

They didn't. Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.

Ya, two of the best players in the league aren't comparable to two of the best players of the league. They were in a much higher scoring league then the one z and d grew up in, no one will ever rack up the points those guys did anymore. But we replaced them with some "possible top 6 complimentary pieces"

Compare how Fedorov and Yzerman compared to their contemporaries to how Datsyuk and Zetterberg compare with theirs. Yzerman and Fedorov were 2 of the best ever.

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Compare how Fedorov and Yzerman compared to their contemporaries to how Datsyuk and Zetterberg compare with theirs. Yzerman and Fedorov were 2 of the best ever.

In like 7 years this exact same argument is going to happen with people comparing Nyquist and Mantha to Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

The point is Datsyuk and Zetterberg are elite. Yzerman and Federov were elite.

We might as well argue "No one will ever be as good as Gordie Howe was"

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Talk about overhype ... Nyquist could turn into a star but it's also possible him only becoming a top 6 contributor and for me that's good enough.neither Nyquist nor Tatar will turn into Z or Pasha. It's funny reading how the team keeps winning although the best they've done is barely making the playoffs and not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years. The sabers will have a very dangerous team in a few years and the isles where held back by an incompetent management and a penny pinching owner. The reality is also really simple the Holland will need some homerun drafts and prepare the Wings much better for the post Z and Pasha era, than he did with the post Lidas one.

Are you actually serious?

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Talk about overhype ... Nyquist could turn into a star but it's also possible him only becoming a top 6 contributor and for me that's good enough.neither Nyquist nor Tatar will turn into Z or Pasha. It's funny reading how the team keeps winning although the best they've done is barely making the playoffs and not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years. The sabers will have a very dangerous team in a few years and the isles where held back by an incompetent management and a penny pinching owner. The reality is also really simple the Holland will need some homerun drafts and prepare the Wings much better for the post Z and Pasha era, than he did with the post Lidas one.

LOL "not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years" implies that they haven't been close for 6 years. They were literately 1 goal away from the third round 15 months ago.

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I really wish people would stop with this, "well we haven't done ANYTHING in the past 5 years", blah, blah, blah... How many times does it have to be said and how the hell is it not obvious to some of you that the Detroit Red Wings are in the midst of their second rebuild in the past two decades, without once missing the playoffs?... That is not that impressive at all... I mean, most teams in the league have done that haven't they?... NOPE, not even close... The Wings streak is at 23 consecutive seasons without missing the playoffs, after that there is the Sharks at 10, Penguins at 8, Bruins 7, Blackhawks 6, Kings 5, Rangers 4, Blues 3, and no other team has made the playoffs more than the past 2 seasons straight. That is absolutely insane when you actually think about it... To continue to make the playoffs for this long, through two rebuilds is nothing short of astonishing, and I'm willing to bet that the Wings make it at least another 7 years to beat the Boston Bruins 29 year playoff streak from '67-'96.

People that do not see the brightness at the end of this tunnel, that has been the past 5 years, are pessimists to their truest form. How can you not be thrilled as a Red Wings fan, not only because of the "stupid, not-at-all-impressive streak", but because of all of the talent that we have coming up over the next few seasons.

To say that there is no way that Jurco can turn out to be as good as Datsyuk is very bleak in my opinion. Jurco has accomplished more than Datsyuk had accomplished at the tender age of 21. Jurco has already got his first taste of NHL action and played quite well for a rookie, while Datsyuk wasn't even drafted until he was 20 and didn't play his first season in the NHL until he was 23. They both have great hands, obviously Pav gets the edge there though since he has better hands than anyone that has ever played the game. Jurco definitely has the size advantage, as he is 3 inches taller and already closing in on 200 lbs., whereas Pav is around the same now but came into the league as a rookie somewhere between 175-180 lbs.

I also think that Nyquist has the potential to become somewhat of a Zetterberg lite. Nyquist is slightly behind Zetterberg in production at the same age but he does have a slightly better point percentage. In Zetterberg's first two seasons he put up 87 points in 140 games, 0.621 points per game, while in Nyquist' first three partial seasons, he put up 61 points in 97 games, 0.628 points per game. Gus has the same drive and determination that makes Hank such a world class player, and he also seems to have the same type of leadership qualities. They're both approximately the same height and weight when they were the same age, while Hank has put on some muscle over the years, Gus still has plenty of room to grow as well.

The Wings definitely have a few potential future stars up front in Nyquist, Jurco and Mantha, but to go along with that I think we have much more depth coming than we have ever had before. Sheahan, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Athanasiou are all potential top 6 players, and Nastasiuk, Bertuzzi and Callahan could be great 3rd and 4th line players. I'm not quite sure where Janmark, Nosek, and Frk will fit in but they're quality players as well. Then you have guys like Larkin and Turgeon that we just drafted that I think could be along their way in about five years as well.

On the back end we also have a few potential future stars in Smith, DeKeyser and Sproul as well as guys like Ouellet, Backman, Marchenko and Jensen. And of course between the pipes, we have Mrazek coming along quite nicely, and he could be a future top 5 goalie in this league.

I realize that all of this, as of right now, is just "potential" but with as many high end prospects that we have, at least a few of them have to turn into quality players. We have one of the best prospect pools in the entire league because we have one of the best general managers in the league, as well as top scouts and development teams in the league (credit to Holland for putting this management team together). I'll never understand some of the constant negative attitudes in here, but to each their own. What a boring forum this would be without you guys lol.

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Great post, krsmith!

You've hit a lot of the salient points that beeded hitting. I actually think this streak is more impressive than the Bruins' streak because they never had to contend with the salary cap the Wings do. Maintaining their level of success from the pre salary cap era to now is impressive, and to sustain it is moreso, imho.

Today's NHL has been striving for parity amongst teams for years, and the case could be made that, as a result, it has, in some ways, become a parody of itself. Ken Holland has done a good job steering the Wings through the transition period, despite everything.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of a trade is higher for the the Wings with any given team than anyone else because so many folks seem to want to see the Wings fail, and no GM wants to be blamed for being the guy that helped the Wings climb back on top.

The injuries the Wings have had the last few years were ridiculous, and at this point, it almost feels like probability is swinging back towards a healthy Wings squad this year.

Kr and Dabura have both made great points, and the negativity is getting old. Am I happy about the Cleary signing? No, but I can respect why Ken did it (MUCH better than how the Sharks crapped on Thornton and Marleau, and I'm no fan of either, but that was bush league). I am hoping Cleary plays well in the games he's in (that ice bucket video was top notch). The prospect pool is the best I've seen since I started watching the Wings back in 1983 as a 12 year old. The future is bright, imho, and the team is going to hit an upswing soon. Let's enjoy the ride.

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