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Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

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Can't believe that farm thing everyone knows not every prospect will turn out in a great way. The wings would need to absolutely hit the jackpot in terms of defense and forwards (especially centers) to even be competitive in the post Pasha era. Note competitive not even talking about cup contention here. Holland had 5 years to fix the defense and so far failed to do so. He also traded away our best center prospect for 2 months of third line service these are facts and there is no sugarcoat around it. Also this team is sharing titles like oldest, softest with a few other teams not something to be proud off.

Yes Holland was a mastermind but he needed to prove it again this off season, sadly he failed then panicked and now he is on the verge of bringing back a team which barely made the playoffsand hot their assess handed to them against a juggernaut! All that while a guy like Nill or Yzerman are trying hard to improve their big club and the AHL teams. So given all of that I don't understand why some people are surprised about the negative reactions.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Wings fans are over-passionate and unrealistic so not surprised to see the negative reaction here. There are 30 teams all vying for the same goal and yet if the Wings don't win a cup every 3 or 4 years then the GM is a failure? The large majority of the teams in this league would give their left nut to have Holland at the helm.

Good signing, I don't agree with everything he's done, especially in recent years...but this team is positioned with a strong farm and should have a bright future.

It's not so much that the Wings don't win the Cup every year that gets people upset. It's the fact Holland has this team going in the wrong or same direction for the past five years now. Holland really needs to work on changing some organizational philosophies within the next four years if the Wings want to get back in serious contention for championships. If we get four more years like the past five, then Holland has failed miserably.

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Jim Nil? Guy fixed Dallas center problem in 12 months and has people excited about the team again while still working on a tight budget. Ray Shero would be a nice choice also at least being him in as an assistant the guy has tons of experience and isn't afraid to trade players.

So far, he has made some good moves, but I don't know if what he did is going to work or not. Last season, they finished 8th in the conference and got bounced in the first round. If Dallas can put something together this year, then I will agree.

Oh, and Dallas is going to spend to the cap limit. They aren't on a tight budget or anything because they aren't spending much.

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Can't believe that farm thing everyone knows not every prospect will turn out in a great way.

Straw man argument. I'm not saying every prospect will turn out in a great way. I'm saying I believe we have what we need to complement the existing core and win one more Cup with Datsyuk. Beyond that, it's truly anyone's guess.

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Is he trying? And are we competitive?

Competitive for Cup? No way. Competitive for making the playoffs every year? You bet ya.

How do you define "trying" and how do you define "competitive"?

I really do believe every team who makes the playoffs is competitive for the cup. Are our chances as good as say Chicago, Boston, or LA? No. But there's 26 other teams in a similar position as us, or in a worse one. It's going to be a few years before we are a true powerhouse again, but the fact that we are still making it to the show in the mean time is pretty darn good, and hard for any GM to do.

number9 pretty much answered the question exactly how I was going to.

I never said in my original statement that Holland has kept the Wings Cup favourites during the re-build, I said he has kept them competitive. You asked me to define competitive...okay: The 2013 playoffs. I believe that taking out a #2 seeded Anaheim Ducks, and then being a goal away from taking out the #1 seed Chicago Blackhawks can be classified as "competitive".

Yes the Wings have been the #7 and #8 seeds respectfully in the last couple seasons, but i think its safe to say that if they weren't littered with injuries, they could have been right there in the thick of things with teams like Tampa Bay, Montreal, NYR, and Philly. Even with the injuries look how close we were.....Montreal had 100 points this year, TB had 101, and we still had 93. If we literately won 4 more games out of the 82 played this year, we finish 101 points and are #2 or #3 in the division. Again, im not saying we are elite, or favourites, but definetely competetive, this is the NHL in 2014....parody. Yes we are not Boston, Chicago or LA, but we are right there with the teams below, and as the playoffs showed with Bos vs Mon, Det vs Chi 2013, LA in 2012, etc. if you get in anything can happen. I do believe we were "competitive".

What do I define as not being "competitive": Buffalo, Florida, Calgary, NYI, Edmonton etc.

Like everyone else here I wish the Wings were still cup favourites, but we're not. We are rebuilding, but with the exception of one bad playoff round in the last 2 years I feel we have definetely been "competitive".

As far as "how is Holland trying"......I think NOT trading the kids is his way of tyring to build for the future, while NOT trading D & Z for more prospects, and signing Alfie last year are a couple examples his way of trying to keep the Wings competitive now. Even the Cleary signing.....as much as I hate it and wish Cleary retired, I believe Holland did this because he was fulfilling a promise he made to Cleary last year when Cleary turned down the Philly deal of 3 years, 9mil. (the promise last year was Hollands mistake, not the signing this year) If Holland reneges on his promise and doesnt sign Cleary, this is something players remember. And to do it to a guy who has sacrificed his body and is a locker room leader/loved by the guys could have had long term ramifications.

Point being, Holland isnt perfect and I'm not trying to say he is. But I do believe he is "trying".

Edited by kliq

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(Remember the Kings circa 2009? Five years ago? How many people thought they'd be winning their second Cup in three years in 2014, with this then-fresh-faced Anze Kopitar kid leading the way? Food for thought.)

Honestly a lot of people thought Kopitar would be leading the way. He was drafted #11 overall and was ranked the #1 European player.

That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick. They were a talented, but crazy young team. Brown was the oldest of that group at 23. Doughty was 18. Johnson was 21. Quick was 22. I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group.

Add to that a handful of solid vets on the team. O'Donnell, Stoll, Greene, Williams. They added Scuderi the next season. I don't know that anyone would've guessed the two Cups, but they had all the makings of becoming a great team very soon.

Sorry. You should pick a team that isn't my second favorite and I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. :P

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Honestly a lot of people thought Kopitar would be leading the way. He was drafted #11 overall and was ranked the #1 European player.

That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick. They were a talented, but crazy young team. Brown was the oldest of that group at 23. Doughty was 18. Johnson was 21. Quick was 22. I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group.

Add to that a handful of solid vets on the team. O'Donnell, Stoll, Greene, Williams. They added Scuderi the next season. I don't know that anyone would've guessed the two Cups, but they had all the makings of becoming a great team very soon.

Sorry. You should pick a team that isn't my second favorite and I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. :P

Where Lombardi doesn't get enough credit, turning those 2 into Richards and Carter. Truly, if Kenny could pull off even close to the types of moves Lombardi has, I bet we'd be a lot similar to the Kings in terms of sucess. Good drafters, solid foundations, but one team took the initiative to make moves to get better, while the other chose to stay stagnant. Really, my only beef with Kenny (outside of not being team enforcer :hehe:) is his inability to make us better through trades.

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Guest DeGraa55   
Guest DeGraa55

Where Lombardi doesn't get enough credit, turning those 2 into Richards and Carter. Truly, if Kenny could pull off even close to the types of moves Lombardi has, I bet we'd be a lot similar to the Kings in terms of sucess. Good drafters, solid foundations, but one team took the initiative to make moves to get better, while the other chose to stay stagnant. Really, my only beef with Kenny (outside of not being team enforcer :hehe:) is his inability to make us better through trades.

Ya why can't DD be the gm of the tigers and wings. Tigers have one of the worst prospect pools in all of baseball yet he acquires guys like miggy scherzer and price in trades lol.

I don't care if we have the best or worst prospect pool or not. I like most people care about winning now and in the future. It's not always about having top notch prospect but overhyped ones work that'll then be traded. Keeping the few that'll pan out( id assume keeny believes that's smith nyquist and Tatar considering he won't part ways with them at all).

No ones asking for Kenny to sell the farm. But my god trading 2-6 prospects for a player or two isn't going to drain us dry.

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Honestly a lot of people thought Kopitar would be leading the way. He was drafted #11 overall and was ranked the #1 European player.

That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick. They were a talented, but crazy young team. Brown was the oldest of that group at 23. Doughty was 18. Johnson was 21. Quick was 22. I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group.

Add to that a handful of solid vets on the team. O'Donnell, Stoll, Greene, Williams. They added Scuderi the next season. I don't know that anyone would've guessed the two Cups, but they had all the makings of becoming a great team very soon.

Sorry. You should pick a team that isn't my second favorite and I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. :P

Ha! I knew you'd respond!

I've been low on sleep the past couple days and as result I haven't been communicating my ideas very well.

The Kings had a very strong foundation set in 2009; most of the key players on the Cup team were already there on the night of that Lidstrom game. About Kopitar specifically - I remember thinking at some point in late 2009 (around the time of this game, actually) that he looked a lot like a younger, bigger Zetterberg. Everyone knew he was special. And, hell, I'm actually one of those people who hates when people say the Kings won the Cup as an 8th seed and so all you have to do is get into the dance and anything can happen.

But - and maybe this doesn't apply to Kings fans - I don't remember many people saying, "The Kings willl be dynasty-good in a few years," back in 2009. That's all I was really saying.

As for our prospects - I'm no professional scout or expert judge of talent or Hockey Insider, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night like to think I know my Wings prospects. Not puffing my chest, just saying I don't get all my learnin' from Hockey's Future. I really, truly believe we can be a contender in two or three years, if we play our cards the right way.

I don't care if we have the best or worst prospect pool or not. I like most people care about winning now and in the future.

*sigh*

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Guest DeGraa55   
Guest DeGraa55

Ha! I knew you'd respond!

I've been low on sleep the past couple days and as result I haven't been communicating my ideas very well.

The Kings had a very strong foundation set in 2009; most of the key players on the Cup team were already there on the night of that Lidstrom game. About Kopitar specifically - I remember thinking at some point in late 2009 (around the time of this game, actually) that he looked a lot like a younger, bigger Zetterberg. Everyone knew he was special. And, hell, I'm actually one of those people who hates when people say the Kings won the Cup as an 8th seed and so all you have to do is get into the dance and anything can happen.

But - and maybe this doesn't apply to Kings fans - I don't remember many people saying, "The Kings willl be dynasty-good in a few years," back in 2009. That's all I was really saying.

As for our prospects - I'm no professional scout or expert judge of talent or Hockey Insider, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night like to think I know my Wings prospects. Not puffing my chest, just saying I don't get all my learnin' from Hockey's Future. I really, truly believe we can be a contender in two or three years, if we play our cards the right way.

*sigh*

Kids these days.

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Honestly a lot of people thought Kopitar would be leading the way. He was drafted #11 overall and was ranked the #1 European player.

That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick. They were a talented, but crazy young team. Brown was the oldest of that group at 23. Doughty was 18. Johnson was 21. Quick was 22. I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group.

Add to that a handful of solid vets on the team. O'Donnell, Stoll, Greene, Williams. They added Scuderi the next season. I don't know that anyone would've guessed the two Cups, but they had all the makings of becoming a great team very soon.

Sorry. You should pick a team that isn't my second favorite and I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. :P

Here's the thing about all those Kings prospects you listed:

Brown - drafted 13th overall 2003

Kopitar - drafted 11th overall 2005

Doughty - drafted 2nd overall 2008

Johnson - drafted 3rd overall 2005

Simmonds - drafted 61st overall 2007

Quick - drafted 72nd overall 2005

That's four key players who were drafted 13th overall or lower in the space of 5 years. The Wings are lucky (as we all know) if we even get a first round pick. I think what I'm trying to point out is that these guys is that due to their draft position they were already well heralded, hyped and great things were expected of them.

Our guys? Was anyone really saying that Datsyuk was going to be the hall of fame caliber player he is back in 1998? Right now the only guy in our prospect pool who might even come close to what those guys from the Kings had is Mantha - yet we still don't even know what we'll get from him as there's a chance he might not even play in the NHL this season.

Personally, I think what we've seen is a philosophy change from KH and the management team - build up the prospect ranks, re-stock the farm, and slowly integrate those kids into bigger roles in the NHL to compliment and support the big guns so that the team grows while also remaining competitive. Once we have the kind of team that KH believes can compete for the cup, then I think we'll start seeing a few trades to bring in guys that will help maintain that goal. A bit like the Stuart trade before we won in 08.

I'm guessing here, but I reckon people don't like that because we all want to win now, and on the surface it looks like this team has been going backwards - 1 playoff round win in 3 years. Personally I think this team is moving forward - even with Cleary, and I think the Wings took the biggest step last year. They've established that an entire 3rd line of kids are good enough and ready enough to not only take NHL jobs, but also contribute in a big way. And thus, the philosophy is working. The kids we're drafting and developing are turning into legitimate NHLers. The task I think now is just getting healthy and letting everyone play together so the Wings can evaluate what we truly have, how good everyone is, and what pieces need to be added to make the Wings a cup competitor.

But I guess that takes time, and not everyone is happy about that.

Edited by wings4thecup06

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I'm so sick of that Kings argument, this was a team most people had as a cup favorite before the season. They underarchieved during the season, fired their coach and in typical kingsstyle put everything together when it counted --> playoffs. Lombardi saw flaws fixed them and brought the team two stanley cups.

With UFAs not wanting to come here, some of the prospects soon need to turn into first pairing defensemen and others are expected to at least soften the blow Pasha and soon after Zetterbergs retirement will cause this team. Also I don't buy this we are making moves once the team is ready excuses anymore, we got Hossa because he basically offered himself by signing a one year contract. Holland sadly has become very very cautious in terms of improving a team and now we are seeing more and more the results of that.

After Niskanen, Ehrhoff went elsewhere most would have been fine with staying put, creating some cap space and let the youth play and what happens ? He overpays and re-signs a borderline second pairing defenseman for 8,5 million, brings back a player who is done and will soon bring back one with another sore back and for what ? Just to keep a stupid streak alive, I gladly let the streak end if it means letting the youth play and if some don't plan out ppackage them for veteran help (not for 2 months of service....)

Even Babcock said that the team is not going into the right direction, so sorry but I don't see the point in icing an exact same roster again and the healthy excuse more than done.

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frank, you were there this past season. The injuries were a nightmare. They won't be that bad this season. Don't say they will, because there's no way they can be. There's absolutely no way. I say that as a hockey fan, a sports fan, not just a Wings fan.

Do you know what a slightly healthier season and/or fewer boneheaded mistakes from Kyle Quincey and/or better luck in the shootout means? Well, for one thing, one more point in the standings gets us the Penguins in the first round. (We ended the regular season tied with the Jackets in terms of points.) I remember very cleary - we wanted the Pens, because we knew we stacked up well against them (even without Zetterberg and Ericsson), and the Pens fans didn't want the Wings, because they knew the Wings stacked up well against the Pens (even with Crosby and Malkin and Neal and Kunitz and The Mighty Matt Niskanen and Future Hall of Famer Brooks Orpik). The Pens were let off the hook and given the Jackets. Because of a tiebreaker rule. Because Johan Franzen and Joakim Andersson spent time as our top center and our heart-and-soul leader had surgery and...Jared Cowen*. (*Don't say we need an enforcer.)

Seven more points? We're even with ZOMG CUP CONTENDERS THE MONTREAL CANADIENS. Eight more points? We're even with ZOMG 2015 EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS THE TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING. The Flyers? They finished a whopping one point ahead of us. The Rangers, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals? They finished a whopping two points ahead of the Flyers, three points ahead of us.

Look, I get it. We're the Red Wings and the Red Wings are Cup-or-bust, no excuses. But this is our first real protracted dose of Adversity in two decades, and we're still right there, knocking on the door. It's really easy to say the glass is half-empty for the Wings, I know this better than most here. I registered here in 2004 and I've been complaining ever since. I could make - and have made, countless times - a really compelling case for why Ken Holland should be fired. But, at the end of the day? If I'm being honest and objective? If I'm looking at what I think is the bigger picture, the bigger plan? I give Ken Holland credit. I think he's doing the right thing, for the most part.

If any GM in this league has earned the benefit of the doubt, it's probably Holland. He knows success. Chicago and Los Angeles win two Cups and everyone's talking like they're the greatest teams imaginable. The Wings were contenders for longer than some of the people on these boards have been alive. We came soul-crushingly close to winning back-to-back Cups in '09. We probably should've won it all in '07. We beat the Ducks and had the aforementioned Blackhawks on the ropes in 2013.

We have three or four years to win one last Cup for Datsyuk. With Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Sproul, et al. in the system, I'm liking our chances. I'm not just saying that. I think about this stuff every day. I obsess over this stuff. I definitely have my problems with Ken Holland's decision-making. I definitely have my concerns. I definitely don't like seeing the Wings as anything short of serious contenders. But in due time we're going to be looking back on all this and laughing. I believe that.

Edited by Dabura

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It's fine everyone is entitled to an own opinion. The difference in terms of Rangers area king Henrik and of course McDonough their defense is extremely good.I've never had the Habs as cup contenders they are better than the Wings yes, but the reason for that is Carey Price. 8 points are 8 points and getting them won't be any easier this season.

Would we've done better against the Pens? Yes, but I don't believe we would have won the series against them.

Also I've never said fire Holland because I knew it won't happen I wanted a promotion to vice president for him, which is different than wanting him fired.

It's a new season teams know how to play against this team, they've seen Boston doing without any problems.Howard would need a Rask like season if this team wants to make the playoffs and I don't see him being that type of goaltender ever.

Yeah the prospects are nice and I love watching them but with the amount of help the defense needs they need to reach their maximum potential and then we've the center problem. This team was not prepared for a plan B after Nicks retirement that's on Holland, period. And now it looks like they aren't prepared for the past Pasha era either so that to me is enough reason to be very scared off the future. Yup ufas aren't coming and the prospect pool is dry after Pulkinen.

Please keep in mind it took a collapse by another team for the Wings to get that 8 seed so realistically the odds aren't that great this year, that's why I'm realistic if they miss I won't be disappointed because I was expecting it.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Yup ufas aren't coming and the prospect pool is dry after Pulkinen

Frank, I can't tell if you truly feel this way or if your over-zealous dissapproval of Holland has spiraled out of control.

Eveyone's entitled to their opinion for sure, but this statement I quoted is just plain wrong.

This defense and this goalie isn't going to get us anywhere in the playoffs provided we even make it in. Sorry but you'd have to be an incurable optimist to believe otherwise.

And what about incurable pessimists?

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frank, you were there this past season. The injuries were a nightmare. They won't be that bad this season. Don't say they will, because there's no way they can be. There's absolutely no way. I say that as a hockey fan, a sports fan, not just a Wings fan.

Do you know what a slightly healthier season and/or fewer boneheaded mistakes from Kyle Quincey and/or better luck in the shootout means? Well, for one thing, one more point in the standings gets us the Penguins in the first round. (We ended the regular season tied with the Jackets in terms of points.) I remember very cleary - we wanted the Pens, because we knew we stacked up well against them (even without Zetterberg and Ericsson), and the Pens fans didn't want the Wings, because they knew the Wings stacked up well against the Pens (even with Crosby and Malkin and Neal and Kunitz and The Mighty Matt Niskanen and Future Hall of Famer Brooks Orpik). The Pens were let off the hook and given the Jackets. Because of a tiebreaker rule. Because Johan Franzen and Joakim Andersson spent time as our top center and our heart-and soul-leader had surgery and...Jared Cowen*. (*Don't say we need an enforcer.)

Seven more points? We're even with ZOMG CUP CONTENDERS THE MONTREAL CANADIENS. Eight more points? We're even with ZOMG 2015 EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS THE TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING. The Flyers? They finished a whopping one point ahead of us. The Rangers, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals? They finished a whopping two points ahead of the Flyers, three points ahead of us.

Look, I get it. We're the Red Wings and the Red Wings are Cup-or-bust, no excuses. But this is our first real protracted dose of Adversity in two decades, and we're still right there, knocking on the door. It's really easy to say the glass is half-empty for the Wings, I know this better than most here. I registered here in 2004 and I've been complaining ever since. I could make - and have made, countless times - a really compelling case for why Ken Holland should be fired. But, at the end of the day? If I'm being honest and objective? If I'm looking at what I think is the bigger picture, the bigger plan? I give Ken Holland credit. I think he's doing the right thing, for the most part.

If any GM in this league has earned the benefit of the doubt, it's probably Holland. He knows success. Chicago and Los Angeles win two Cups and everyone's talking like they're the greatest teams imaginable. The Wings were contenders for longer than some of the people on these boards have been alive. We came soul-crushingly close to winning back-to-back Cups in '09. We probably should've won it all in '07. We beat the Ducks and had the aforementioned Blackhawks on the ropes in 2013.

We have three or four years to win one last Cup for Datsyuk. With Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Sproul, et al. in the system, I'm liking our chances. I'm not just saying that. I think about this stuff every day. I obsess over this stuff. I definitely have my problems with Ken Holland's decision-making. I definitely have my concerns. I definitely don't like seeing the Wings as anything short of serious contenders. But in due time we're going to be looking back on all this and laughing. I believe that.

Regular season and playoffs are two different battles, and we are not a team built to win in the playoffs right now. We got lucky and overachieved for a minute a couple seasons ago and then Chicago reminded us what it takes to really go the distance and win. Boston completely manhandled us after the first game. It was the same story in the 90s for awhile too. Great regular season team, a talented team, but not enough teeth to get the job done in the playoffs. Except we're nowhere near as good as those mid-90s teams even, though thankfully, on some level that's a league-wide problem that relates back to the cap.

I don't think we're as far off as some think, but we absolutely need some serious tweaking to get there. What blows my mind and infuriates me about Holland is that he doesn't seem to recognize this as he squanders the last years of Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's careers. He still hasn't found a way to make the D at least a little better and solid front to back, and he keeps signing the wrong guys to bad deals. He needs to find a way to turn it around, and given that we can't bring anyone in via free agency anymore, he needs to be okay with the fact that we're going to get ripped off in trades for a minute until we reclaim a bit of our status. Make the right moves and have some real success again and the free agent problem disappears for the most part.

But he's got to do something, anything, first, to actually make this team better.

Edited by gcom007

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