Where were team-mates on the Smith headshot

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Here's why I think this "the refs should have stopped it sooner" argument is bunk. If Smith had been winning the fight, and the refs stopped it sooner, everybody would be irritated that the refs "should have let them go". When you say "usually the refs jump in TOO early" you're suggesting that they're doing something wrong by getting involved before they SHOULD. And now, you're advocating them getting involved before they DID. It's a judgment call for the refs, and when the fight is going well for our boys, people are almost never in favor of stopping the fight.

If Brendan Smith had the sweater pulled over Panik's head and was serving him his lunch, everybody would have been fine with the refs' inaction. They'd have LOVED seeing a Red Wing win a fight for once. But because Riley's Brother was getting handled it's somehow wrong for the refs to stand back and "let em' go".

I don't buy it.

You're making assumptions here. Not too many people would be happy about that. I wouldn't want to see someone on the wings win a fight by cheating. If he loses fairly then it's all well and good. If he wins fairly then I'm happy. If cheating is involved to create a clear advantage on either side the fight should be stopped immediately.

Darren McCarty cold cocked LePuke then continued to pummel him while LePuke turtled. Were you upset at McCarty?

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

Darren McCarty cold cocked LePuke then continued to pummel him while LePuke turtled. Were you upset at McCarty?

Completely different situation, but the refs should have stopped that fight immediately.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Seeing the fight I thought Smith actually did okay given his sweater was over his head the entire time. He could've just fallen down once that happened.

I am a little surprised the linesman let it go that long considering Smith basically couldn't defend himself.

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

Seeing the fight I thought Smith actually did okay given his sweater was over his head the entire time. He could've just fallen down once that happened.

I am a little surprised the linesman let it go that long considering Smith basically couldn't defend himself.

This was my point. Refs shouldn't let something like that go on.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

This was my point. Refs shouldn't let something like that go on.

Especially given the tie-down rule.

Years ago he'd be able to slip out of his jersey and start throwing haymakers. But if you've got it properly tied down, you're pretty stuck.

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

Especially given the tie-down rule.

Years ago he'd be able to slip out of his jersey and start throwing haymakers. But if you've got it properly tied down, you're pretty stuck.

Yup. We use to see that all the time, guy gets jerseyed and slips it and keeps fighting. Now you're screwed. Good thing for those rules they implement for players safety.

[TheWolf 20]

We have had many issues with this in the past.

1) I don't know if it is Holland, Babcock, or the players, but they don't seem to have the willingness to fight. Even when it was a terrible cheap shot.

2) The strange mentality ignoring this aspect of the game. Yeah, skill is great, but if you can't stand up for your team when needed, teams are going to walk all over you. When a team can physically intimidate your guys, can cheap shot and get away with it because no one will do anything, that is a problem.

3) We expect the refs to protect us, but when they don't, we get abused and don't have a backup plan. We've seen this year in and year out. Remember last year with Franzen and Neil? Franzen said this, "I’ve been getting head shots pretty much every year and I don’t think it’s ever been punishment for any of the hits,” and this,“He thinks I’m not tough because I’m not fighting him; what does he have, like 30 fights a year? And he’s been doing that his whole career,” Franzen said. “I’ve never had a fight in my whole life. It’s like me asking him to get hockey sense and good hands or something. I’ve never been fighting, didn’t grow up fighting. For me it’s not a part of the game. I’m not going to fight. I’ve had enough concussions. I’m definitely not going to risk one doing something stupid like that.”

Here Franzen is admitting he gets hit, doesn't get protected by the refs or league, and won't fight. Isn't this the epitome of the Red Wings philosophy? Just play with more skill and it will work itself out right?

4) Ignoring the fact that we do need hard hitters to defend guys. I don't want dirty players. I DO want someone who will stand up for our guys. Not to mention you have two or three guys against us on ice and we have only one guy willing to stand up for us, it will be ugly.

5) Playoffs. This crap gets ridiculous. Not only are things ratcheted up even higher, and generally diving is rewarded, but teams throw down over perfectly clean hits. It is stupid, but that is the current NHL. We can't skate away from that fact. We go into a situation where we expect our skill guys to have to do all the heavy fighting we are in trouble.

6) Teammates need to stick up for each other more. You need to believe a teammate has your back. What if Ericsson wasn't on the ice for that Helm hit? Would anyone else on the ice have done anything?

7) Covering our eyes isn't going to make it go away, and the management and coaching need to realize that.

Edited December 19, 2014 by TheWolf

[Guest DeGraa55]

We have had many issues with this in the past.

1) I don't know if it is Holland, Babcock, or the players, but they don't seem to have the willingness to fight. Even when it was a terrible cheap shot.

2) The strange mentality ignoring this aspect of the game. Yeah, skill is great, but if you can't stand up for your team when needed, teams are going to walk all over you. When a team can physically intimidate your guys, can cheap shot and get away with it because no one will do anything, that is a problem.

3) We expect the refs to protect us, but when they don't, we get abused and don't have a backup plan. We've seen this year in and year out. Remember last year with Franzen and Neil? Franzen said this, "Ive been getting head shots pretty much every year and I dont think its ever been punishment for any of the hits, and this,He thinks Im not tough because Im not fighting him; what does he have, like 30 fights a year? And hes been doing that his whole career, Franzen said. Ive never had a fight in my whole life. Its like me asking him to get hockey sense and good hands or something. Ive never been fighting, didnt grow up fighting. For me its not a part of the game. Im not going to fight. Ive had enough concussions. Im definitely not going to risk one doing something stupid like that.

Here Franzen is admitting he gets hit, doesn't get protected by the refs or league, and won't fight. Isn't this the epitome of the Red Wings philosophy? Just play with more skill and it will work itself out right?

4) Ignoring the fact that we do need hard hitters to defend guys. I don't want dirty players. I DO want someone who will stand up for our guys. Not to mention you have two or three guys against us on ice and we have only one guy willing to stand up for us, it will be ugly.

5) Playoffs. This crap gets ridiculous. Not only are things ratcheted up even higher, and generally diving is rewarded, but teams throw down over perfectly clean hits. It is stupid, but that is the current NHL. We can't skate away from that fact. We go into a situation where we expect our skill guys to have to do all the heavy fighting we are in trouble.

6) Teammates need to stick up for each other more. You need to believe a teammate has your back. What if Ericsson wasn't on the ice for that Helm hit? Would anyone else on the ice have done anything?

7) Covering our eyes isn't going to make it go away, and the management and coaching need to realize that.

The thing is Franzen brings it upon himself. He goes out there and runs his d****** all game long. You don't see dat or z get near the abuse or challenges to fight that Franzen dies because they keep their mouths shut and play.

Edited December 19, 2014 by haroldsnepsts
profanity

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

The thing is Franzen brings it upon himself. He goes out there and runs his d****** all game long. You don't see dat or z get near the abuse or challenges to fight that Franzen dies because they keep their mouths shut and play.

Datsyuk and zetterberg are two of the most respected players in the league.

Z still gets ran a lot, datsyuk barely ever does because everyone respects him.

And if you go straight for his body, hell duck you, if you go for the puck hell embarass you.

And datsyuk literally goes out of his ways to play a clean game.

If he's backchecking and ends up hooking someone instead of lifting their stick hell apologize...

I get the point you're trying to make, but comparing them is apples to oranges.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Well Pasha is probably one of the most gifted players server in terms of skill not even 40 can match that. Beating the Wings has become too simple and that's not a good thing regardless of the record the book is our there => play a hard nosed physical game, intimidate the team and you'll soon. Ever since Godstrom left the PP had become abysmal as evidence by the opponents taking more liberties with the Wings. I wonder if Dubinsky would have even looked at one of our players with Orr or Mclaren on the bench?

Skill needs to be balanced and the Wings are lacking in that regard, so some nastiness and mean SOB isn't the worst thing. When s the last time someone challenged Hall or Hoping? Can't remember it because answering to Gazdic isn't a blessing experience. Even better how many cheap shots does Johnny hockey receive per game? None because the stare of Grats is on the bench ready to go at each time. God do I miss the bash bros and the tight bunch this team once was... Skilled, Hard nosed, hard working and entertaining as hell

Edited December 19, 2014 by frankgrimes

[number9 3,297]

Well Pasha is probably one of the most gifted players server in terms of skill not even 40 can match that. Beating the Wings has become too simple and that's not a good thing regardless of the record the book is our there => play a hard nosed physical game, intimidate the team and you'll soon. Ever since Godstrom left the PP had become abysmal as evidence by the opponents taking more liberties with the Wings. I wonder if Dubinsky would have even looked at one of our players with Orr or Mclaren on the bench? Skill needs to be balanced and the Wings are lacking in that regard, so some nastiness and mean SOB isn't the worst thing. When s the last time someone challenged Hall or Hoping? Can't remember it because answering to Gazdic isn't a blessing experience. Even better how many cheap shots does Johnny hockey receive per game? None because the stare of Grats is on the bench ready to go at each time. God do I miss the bash bros and the tight bunch this team once was... Skilled, Hard nosed, hard working and entertaining as hell

Abysmal on the pp? We're 7th in the league in pp%

Yeah Orr and Mclaren are so good at protecting players that the Leafs demoted them to their farm team. In fact they only have 12 games between them in the AHL lol they can't even make that team.

Each time? Mcgrattan has only skated for the Flames 8 times this season. Even that no-depth team isn't finding him useful lol

Please Frank, this is getting ridiculous.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Nm

Edited December 19, 2014 by jimmyemeryhunter

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Abysmal on the pp? We're 7th in the league in pp%

Yeah Orr and Mclaren are so good at protecting players that the Leafs demoted them to their farm team. In fact they only have 12 games between them in the AHL lol they can't even make that team.

Each time? Mcgrattan has only skated for the Flames 8 times this season. Even that no-depth team isn't finding him useful lol

Please Frank, this is getting ridiculous.

Really?? Maybe by your standards but we all have an opinion.

[number9 3,297]

Really?? Maybe by your standards but we all have an opinion.

So you agree that at 7th in the league our PP is abysmal and that Mclaren, Orr, and Mcgrattan would each make great additions here? even though they can't even make the Leafs or Flames?

Calling you ridiculous in 5, 4, 3...

[krsmith17 7,191]

Don't worry Frank and co. Mike McKee will be here smashing faces in about 5 years or so...

[kipwinger 8,807]

Don't worry Frank and co. Mike McKee will be here smashing faces in about 5 years or so...

Sure he will. Lol.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Don't worry Frank and co. Mike McKee will be here smashing faces in about 5 years or so...

I doubt it. But we would love it!

[kipwinger 8,807]

I doubt it. But we would love it!

Me too! He'd punch so many guys. Like, all the time he'd be punching guys. Punching guys is awesome!

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Like 17X the usual number of punched guys for us.

[kipwinger 8,807]

Like 17X the usual number of punched guys for us.

That just aroused me a little bit.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Well Pasha is probably one of the most gifted players server in terms of skill not even 40 can match that. Beating the Wings has become too simple and that's not a good thing regardless of the record the book is our there => play a hard nosed physical game, intimidate the team and you'll soon. Ever since Godstrom left the PP had become abysmal as evidence by the opponents taking more liberties with the Wings. I wonder if Dubinsky would have even looked at one of our players with Orr or Mclaren on the bench?

Skill needs to be balanced and the Wings are lacking in that regard, so some nastiness and mean SOB isn't the worst thing. When s the last time someone challenged Hall or Hoping? Can't remember it because answering to Gazdic isn't a blessing experience. Even better how many cheap shots does Johnny hockey receive per game? None because the stare of Grats is on the bench ready to go at each time. God do I miss the bash bros and the tight bunch this team once was... Skilled, Hard nosed, hard working and entertaining as hell

I don't know, I don't watch a lot of other teams. I do know that players who have tough guys on their teams get run a lot though, and that if the only reason you're an NHL player is because you're good at hitting people and pissing them off then you're not going to not do that because some knuckle dragger will want to fight you, so those types of players really don't do much to protect their teammates. Even when every team had a couple guys like that, it was usually the fighters from each team throwing down with each other. Rat bastard runs star player from team A. Team A sends out goon to kill rat bastard. Team B sends out goon to protect rat bastard. Goon A and Goon B fight. Rat bastard continues as before.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Me too! He'd punch so many guys. Like, all the time he'd be punching guys. Punching guys is awesome!

McGrattan!

[kipwinger 8,807]

I don't know, I don't watch a lot of other teams. I do know that players who have tough guys on their teams get run a lot though, and that if the only reason you're an NHL player is because you're good at hitting people and pissing them off then you're not going to not do that because some knuckle dragger will want to fight you, so those types of players really don't do much to protect their teammates. Even when every team had a couple guys like that, it was usually the fighters from each team throwing down with each other. Rat bastard runs star player from team A. Team A sends out goon to kill rat bastard. Team B sends out goon to protect rat bastard. Goon A and Goon B fight. Rat bastard continues as before.

You got it all wrong brah!

Fighters keep that rats in check. Everybody knows that. Which is why guys like Kaleta, Carcillo, Downie, Marchand, Asham, and Ott never, EVER, acted like rats while big badass enforcers like Thornton, Orr, McLaren, Scott, and Engelland were patrolling the East.

Nope, never.

McGrattan!

Haha, why do I assume you've got a framed one of these hanging over your bed?

Edited December 19, 2014 by kipwinger

[number9 3,297]

McGrattan!

Let's just start calling him Brian. We should be on a first name basis with him at this point.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Let's just start calling him Brian. We should be on a first name basis with him at this point.

I'm thinking about starting an appreciation thread on him. Let's not mention his name in any other forums (even the enforcer forums) otherwise, it'll seem a bit much.