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HockeytownRules19

Red Wings acquire Erik Cole, conditional 3rd from Stars

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So much hate...clearly Holland makes decisions, and has a lot of final decisions in the same way the POTUS does. But the most direct way the competence of a GM can be judged is in trading...because, unless its more of a group setting like for some teams, its basically just his job...his calls. Holland can't scout all of the OHL by himself let alone everywhere the scouts go. Also, I believe Ryan Martin was hired originally as the Cap manager. So that, literally, was his job.

Is that so? Dang, then I should retract my statements quick. Holland's a fantastic GM!

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How old are you? May I ask? I turn 29 this month and I've followed the Wings religiously my entire life from age 8. For some reason i actually retain most of the generally useless history, info, players, trades, and dialogue I've heard along the way. I've followed the Wings for the entirety of Holland's tenure as GM and I have a particular addiction to information I've come across about NHL front offices. I like to think, as a fan, I'm about as informed as I can be enough to make the claims I do.

Holland has done a lot of things right in his time with the Wings, but he also had an All-Star cast of Front Office support along the way...not limited to Dellevano, Scotty Bowman (who I believe brought way more than people even thought...and they thought he brought a lot), Nill, Mark Howe, and several others. But since those people have started moving on, his ability to make good trades has nose dived. If Babcock creates good coaches, I believe Holland was created by other good front office people. HE does not seem to be a great stand alone GM. The two things that he is most credited for are also other peoples jobs (cap management and scouting).

This is far more than vibes bro, but thanks for playing.

WOW! I didn't know you had followed the Wings religiously for over 20 YEARS!!

I'll bet no one else here could say that.

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Geez I just heard cole has gone like 35 straight playoff games without a goal and hasn't scored since 2002?? Can anyone confirm that?

Not a good stat

He's gone 23 without a goal

EDIT: Could be wrong. Only what I could garner from hockeydb. I've been drinking and go ahead of myself

Edited by number9

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How old are you? May I ask? I turn 29 this month and I've followed the Wings religiously my entire life from age 8. For some reason i actually retain most of the generally useless history, info, players, trades, and dialogue I've heard along the way. I've followed the Wings for the entirety of Holland's tenure as GM and I have a particular addiction to information I've come across about NHL front offices. I like to think, as a fan, I'm about as informed as I can be enough to make the claims I do.

Holland has done a lot of things right in his time with the Wings, but he also had an All-Star cast of Front Office support along the way...not limited to Dellevano, Scotty Bowman (who I believe brought way more than people even thought...and they thought he brought a lot), Nill, Mark Howe, and several others. But since those people have started moving on, his ability to make good trades has nose dived. If Babcock creates good coaches, I believe Holland was created by other good front office people. HE does not seem to be a great stand alone GM. The two things that he is most credited for are also other peoples jobs (cap management and scouting).

This is far more than vibes bro, but thanks for playing.

Actually it sounds like its ONLY vibes. "who I believe brought way more..." "I believe Holland was created by other good front office people." "He does not seem to be a great stand alone GM". These aren't facts. This is what you believe. And you didn't even bother to try to support these opinions with anything empirical or quantifiable. As far as any of us are aware you're going off of vibes.

Also, you say Holland's ability to make good trades has nose-dived after people like Nill left. Nill left in 2013. Holland only made two trades since then (Legwand and Cole). That's not exactly a good sample size to base criticism on, especially because the Cole trade isn't even 4 hours old yet, and we haven't had a chance to see what these players can do for their new teams (but considering Holland moved two players who will never see ice as a Red Wing, if Cole plays just one game then the Wings are coming out ahead). If Holland made any s***ty trades prior to Nill leaving in 2013, are you willing to point the blame on Nill for those screwups? Or does he only get credit for the good trades, and it was all Holland's idea for the bad ones? And also, will you be basing your answer off more than vibes again?

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Geez I just heard cole has gone like 35 straight playoff games without a goal and hasn't scored since 2002?? Can anyone confirm that?

Not a good stat

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8467396

He's only been in the playoff 4 years (02,05,09,14) so that's an exaggerate way of looking at it.

He only play 3 games in the playoffs last year and 2 in 05.

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How old are you? May I ask? I turn 29 this month and I've followed the Wings religiously my entire life from age 8. For some reason i actually retain most of the generally useless history, info, players, trades, and dialogue I've heard along the way. I've followed the Wings for the entirety of Holland's tenure as GM and I have a particular addiction to information I've come across about NHL front offices. I like to think, as a fan, I'm about as informed as I can be enough to make the claims I do.

Holland has done a lot of things right in his time with the Wings, but he also had an All-Star cast of Front Office support along the way...not limited to Dellevano, Scotty Bowman (who I believe brought way more than people even thought...and they thought he brought a lot), Nill, Mark Howe, and several others. But since those people have started moving on, his ability to make good trades has nose dived. If Babcock creates good coaches, I believe Holland was created by other good front office people. HE does not seem to be a great stand alone GM. The two things that he is most credited for are also other peoples jobs (cap management and scouting).

This is far more than vibes bro, but thanks for playing.

I turn 30 in a month and I've been following the Wings since I was 7. Get rekt.

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110% true. Lower level employees do ALL the work. It's not like managers hire, manage employees, and guide the overall vision of the business. They just sit in their office and kick tires while watching netflix. Bums. Fire them. NOW.

EDIT: Clearly Holland never learned anything while working with so many great hockey men. Which is baffling considering how are teams stays elite by great vets teaching great young kids. Holland MUST be slow or something.

Wow...missing the point much? Holland clearly is regarded as a good GM. Im sure he learned something...that said, I believe he's overrated because of the team he used to have around him. Same way that people still debate Roy over Brodeur even though Marty has way more stats to back his claim. Marty's stats were skewed by the system he was in. Roy's weren't, generally. That doesn't mean Brodeur wasn't a great goalie...it just means he may not be what people think. I Marty would have been traded to the Isles in '02...it may be a completely different conversation. I think if Holland took over Carolina right now...we'd see him a lot differently. I don't think he would go into there like Nill went into to Dallas.

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How old are you? May I ask? I turn 29 this month and I've followed the Wings religiously my entire life from age 8. For some reason i actually retain most of the generally useless history, info, players, trades, and dialogue I've heard along the way. I've followed the Wings for the entirety of Holland's tenure as GM and I have a particular addiction to information I've come across about NHL front offices. I like to think, as a fan, I'm about as informed as I can be enough to make the claims I do.

Holland has done a lot of things right in his time with the Wings, but he also had an All-Star cast of Front Office support along the way...not limited to Dellevano, Scotty Bowman (who I believe brought way more than people even thought...and they thought he brought a lot), Nill, Mark Howe, and several others. But since those people have started moving on, his ability to make good trades has nose dived. If Babcock creates good coaches, I believe Holland was created by other good front office people. HE does not seem to be a great stand alone GM. The two things that he is most credited for are also other peoples jobs (cap management and scouting).

This is far more than vibes bro, but thanks for playing.

Ha. Here's the thing man.

I'm not playing, and even if I were, the sh** you're talking about isn't something you win, your bravado, cockiness, and knowledge of the red wings is all well and good, but you're basing everything you're saying off speculation.

There's no proving your point, and even if and when these prospects, ken Holland, and Jim nill all retire there will be no set way to determine who won this, because hockey IS a game, and their will always be ambiguity about things.

If the prospects make it in one place, theirs no guarantees they would've made it in the other.

And for all this Jim nill ken Holland who's better, who's worthless bs is obnoxious.

The fact that you lay it out So cut and dry, in such matter of fact way with your attitude doesn't make me want to discuss stuff with you, it makes me devalue anything you say.

And anyone who talks about it as such, is not old enough to have an adult conversation on the matter, regardless of age.

The more you know, the less you know.

Now please.

Stop trying to argue with me over something so little.

I don't think we gave up that much.

You do.

I get it.

You're not changing my opinion, no matter how much you tell me you know, and I'm not changing yours. And that's fine.

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Really?!? Guys....anyone have the article? Do you know that that situation actually happened? Because it did.

Also, its one reason why people hated on George W and love Obamanation...its presence.

Holland has the presence of a man that can be persuaded to back down. Nill does not. I've met them both and seen countless interviews as well. Its the same you look for in a coach...one of the reasons i believe Dave Lewis failed. Lewis didn't have the presence to set a standard for the team...but Babs does and he knows how to use it.

You're so informed and enlightened, shouldn't you have the article? I'll wait patiently while you go and find me the article that states that Holland's boss gave him a direct order to do something, and he said no. Edited by rick zombo

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Wow...missing the point much? Holland clearly is regarded as a good GM. Im sure he learned something...that said, I believe he's overrated because of the team he used to have around him. Same way that people still debate Roy over Brodeur even though Marty has way more stats to back his claim. Marty's stats were skewed by the system he was in. Roy's weren't, generally. That doesn't mean Brodeur wasn't a great goalie...it just means he may not be what people think. I Marty would have been traded to the Isles in '02...it may be a completely different conversation. I think if Holland took over Carolina right now...we'd see him a lot differently. I don't think he would go into there like Nill went into to Dallas.

So you're deciding to base your entire line of argument on "what if Holland went to a bad/different team?" And then assuming he would do bad? Despite that there exists zero evidence to back that conclusion? Or any conclusion involving that premise?

Goodluck with the straw grasping brother. I'm out.

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So you're deciding to base your entire line of argument on "what if Holland went to a bad/different team?" And then assuming he would do bad? Despite that there exists zero evidence to back that conclusion? Or any conclusion involving that premise?

Goodluck with the straw grasping brother. I'm out.

dood hes 29. He knows hockey.

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Lol. Holland's overrated because his assistants are the ones who really do all the scouting, drafting, development?

If that's the standard, Holland is even better than you think. Because back when he was the Director of Amateur Scouting the Red Wings scouted and drafted Osgood, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Lapointe, Fedorov, McCarty, Drake...

He's held, and excelled, at almost every single job in the organization because he's incredibly competent. No matter what the position, he's excelled at it. To say otherwise is laughable.

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WOW! I didn't know you had followed the Wings religiously for over 20 YEARS!!

I'll bet no one else here could say that.

You guys are fascinating today...i didn't call you or anyone other than that kid into question. I respect a lot of the people that post here because they post rational, fact based, respectful responses...I just thought his response ("....just because the vibes Holland gives off tell you that he's a crappy gm") was not accurate and was not what i said. But please go back two needlessly making me into "that guy"

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Lol. Holland's overrated because his assistants are the ones who really do all the scouting, drafting, development?

If that's the standard, Holland is even better than you think. Because back when he was the Director of Amateur Scouting the Red Wings scouted and drafted Osgood, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Lapointe, Fedorov, McCarty, Drake...

He's held, and excelled, at almost every single job in the organization because he's incredibly competent. No matter what the position, he's excelled at it. To say otherwise is laughable.

Yo, Kip. You like trade?

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You're so informed and enlightened, shouldn't you have the article? I'll wait patiently while you go and find me the article that states that Holland's boss gave him a direct order to do something, and he said no.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/05/red_wings_owner_mike_ilitch_gm.html

"Stevie Y wants to become a GM; we'd love to have him as a GM,'' Ilitch said. "I keep telling Kenny, 'Hey, I want to move you up to president.' He goes, 'I don't want to be a president, I want to be a GM.' So he's going to stay there as GM.''

Holland made it clear he is happy at his current post, which he has held since 1997.

"I'm the general manager, I don't have any interest in becoming president,'' Holland said. "I'm a general manager, that's what I was hired to do.''

Thanks for the attitude.

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You guys are fascinating today...i didn't call you or anyone other than that kid into question. I respect a lot of the people that post here because they post rational, fact based, respectful responses...I just thought his response ("....just because the vibes Holland gives off tell you that he's a crappy gm") was not accurate and was not what i said. But please go back two needlessly making me into "that guy"

Would you like to join the club? Heads up, we're only respectful of intelligent/hilarious responses

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I've found that being super condescending is a great way to get people to consider my point!

wait

Yeah, suuuuure it is. Because you're so super, duper, ultra smart. Riiiiiiiiiiight. I never condescend, and that's the best way to get people to listen. But I wouldn't expect a girl like you to understand that.

:bye1:

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http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/05/red_wings_owner_mike_ilitch_gm.html

"Stevie Y wants to become a GM; we'd love to have him as a GM,'' Ilitch said. "I keep telling Kenny, 'Hey, I want to move you up to president.' He goes, 'I don't want to be a president, I want to be a GM.' So he's going to stay there as GM.''[/size]

Holland made it clear he is happy at his current post, which he has held since 1997.[/size]"I'm the general manager, I don't have any interest in becoming president,'' Holland said. "I'm a general manager, that's what I was hired to do.''[/size]

Thanks for the attitude.[/size]

Well then, either Illitch has no balls, or Holland's not as big as a pushover as you think he is.

Or Illitch was maybe just talking.

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Let's take it off the playground and back to respectful trade discussion. Points have been stated, it's getting heated, keep it under control please. The Wings making a trade is almost as rare as the Winter Olympics at this point, let's keep it friendly.

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Let's take it off the playground and back to respectful trade discussion. Points have been stated, it's getting heated, keep it under control please. The Wings making a trade is almost as rare as the Winter Olympics at this point, let's keep it friendly.

Did I earn my rainbow and pony SIG?

:lol:

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