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kickazz

Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

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Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired?  

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6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

...and that's why it's stupid. Fedorov help make this team the champion it was throughout the 90's into the 2000's. Without him, NO WAY do we have the winning percentage that we had. He was a Hart Trophy winner, the same year he was a Selke Award winner. Then won another Selke. Led the team throughout the playoffs plenty of times. Ranks among the leaders STILL in damn near every important category. Still to this day, he was the biggest single game changer they've ever had. He could take over a game with one play and then he was unstoppable.

He didn't try his hardest to leave twice...he was told to explore the market if you think you're worth it, and looked what happened, they matched an offer, so obviously at that time they thought they needed him more than however many 1st round picks they'd receive.  The second time, they got mad because he wouldn't sign a deal in December, then when he settled his divorce and hired a new agent, he want to sign the deal and they pulled it and offered him less years which resulted in less money. The guy was having huge personal issues and they got mad because he wouldn't put them aside and sign a contract, all he did was ask them to wait until things got sewn up.

Yeah Feds was instrumental to some of those championships... so was Shanahan, so was Murphy, so was Hull, so was Holmstrom, so was McCarty etc etc

Being good isnt enough. Winning a cup isnt enough.

You have to play all of, or nearly all of, your career here. Bailing for money or mother Russia pretty soundly ends that.

This isnt Montreal. We have standards.

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So, I inadvertently brought up this side issue and I was curious and bored so I looked into it. And... I'm going to completely contradict myself: I really don't think our standards are different than the Habs.

All of their 18 players (15 retired numbers):

- won multiple cups with the Habs and are in the Hall of Fame

- won multiple major individual awards (G: Vezina, F-Hart, Art Ross, D-Norris) 

- played all but a few years of their career with the Habs (except goalies: Plante has 6 years away and Roy, but then again, Sawchuck had 7 years away - it is less likely for goalies to spend their career with 1 team) 

Except these player that don't meet all those high standards:

- Henri Richard: HOF, 11 cups (most of anyone), Lifetime Hab, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up. 

- Bob Gainey: HOF: 5 Cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe+4 Selkes, Captain for 8 years -  Yeah, We'd put him up. 

- Yvan Cournoyer: HOF, 10 cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up.

- Serge Savard: HOF, 8 Cups, Only 2 years away from Habs, Conn Smyth+Masterton, Captain for 2 years. was also GM for 12 years (winning 2 cups) - yeah we'd put him up.

- Emile Bouchard: HOF, 4 cups, Lifetime Hab, Captain for 8 years. - probably the smallest case of all the retired players, but I still think we'd put him up 

So, I really don't think they've put any numbers that could be comparable to the "should they, shouldn't they?" variety like Osgood, Shanahan, Holmstrom. And none show a lower standard than what we've put up. 

Sorry that this is longer than I intended, but I think it's relevant since this debate really comes down to what the standards are and everyone always says that the Wings are different than the rest of the league. Maybe that really isn't the case. From looking around the original six teams, at least, seem to have similar standards (except maybe the Leafs with Clark, Gilmour, etc. or a few sentimental exceptions: Bruins with Terry O'Reilly).

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Well steering back to the topic though.

Zetterberg's jersey is going to be retired. Called it. And so did Kliq and a few others. Everyone who called it is a good prognosticator. Pat yourselves on the back.  

Of course nothing is certain until it's actually done. For all we know Zetterberg could come out with a Mitch Albom interview tomorrow and say he's going back to Sweden to be with his dad then all of a sudden Christopher Illitch and mom let Holland know to give the media a different story about jersey retirement. 

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23 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Well steering back to the topic though.

Zetterberg's jersey is going to be retired. Called it. And so did Kliq and a few others. Everyone who called it is a good prognosticator. Pat yourselves on the back.  

Of course nothing is certain until it's actually done. For all we know Zetterberg could come out with a Mitch Albom interview tomorrow and say he's going back to Sweden to be with his dad then all of a sudden Christopher Illitch and mom let Holland know to give the media a different story about jersey retirement. 

Was this thread started 10 years ago?  Or last year?  

What has changed since last year?

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1 hour ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

So, I inadvertently brought up this side issue and I was curious and bored so I looked into it. And... I'm going to completely contradict myself: I really don't think our standards are different than the Habs.

All of their 18 players (15 retired numbers):

- won multiple cups with the Habs and are in the Hall of Fame

- won multiple major individual awards (G: Vezina, F-Hart, Art Ross, D-Norris) 

- played all but a few years of their career with the Habs (except goalies: Plante has 6 years away and Roy, but then again, Sawchuck had 7 years away - it is less likely for goalies to spend their career with 1 team) 

Except these player that don't meet all those high standards:

- Henri Richard: HOF, 11 cups (most of anyone), Lifetime Hab, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up. 

- Bob Gainey: HOF: 5 Cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe+4 Selkes, Captain for 8 years -  Yeah, We'd put him up. 

- Yvan Cournoyer: HOF, 10 cups, Lifetime Hab, Conn Smythe, Captain for 4 years - Yeah, we'd put him up.

- Serge Savard: HOF, 8 Cups, Only 2 years away from Habs, Conn Smyth+Masterton, Captain for 2 years. was also GM for 12 years (winning 2 cups) - yeah we'd put him up.

- Emile Bouchard: HOF, 4 cups, Lifetime Hab, Captain for 8 years. - probably the smallest case of all the retired players, but I still think we'd put him up 

So, I really don't think they've put any numbers that could be comparable to the "should they, shouldn't they?" variety like Osgood, Shanahan, Holmstrom. And none show a lower standard than what we've put up. I think it's just that they've had more success than any other franchise. Also, they had special access to Quebec Talent before the draft - the majority of their retired players are from QC and began their careers before the draft. (Pre-60s this was big when the talent pool was smaller and mostly drew from a few parts of Canada) Also, they seem to have kept so many guys for entirety of their careers.

So, maybe the Wings base their standard for jersey retirement on what the Canadiens have done? They are the oldest franchise and were the modal for a long time.

Dont really know enough about the habs to comment. Retiring multiple players to one number is just ridiculous to me.

Ill also say i think its ridiculous to even consider retiring Osgood. 

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15 minutes ago, kliq said:

Holland's comments that Z's jersey will be retired.

I didn't hear that.  When did he say that?  This organization didn't retire Yzerman or Lidstrom's numbers until they actually retired. However, it was well known that those guys would have their jerseys retired someday. Can Holland state affirmatively that Datsyuk would be retired? 

 

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2 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I didn't hear that.  When did he say that?  This organization didn't retire Yzerman or Lidstrom's numbers until they actually retired. However, it was well known that those guys would have their jerseys retired someday. Can Holland state affirmatively that Datsyuk would be retired? 

 

 

On 3/31/2017 at 5:07 PM, kickazz said:

I'm not sure how legit this is but..

Just ask GM Ken Holland. Speaking with THN’s Ken Campbell on Thursday, Holland made it clear he has no desire to move Zetterberg and chances are he remains a Red Wing until he decides he’s done with the game. If that’s not enough, Holland said, “Zetterberg’s jersey is going in the rafters.” Enough said.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/active-nhlers-who-are-a-lock-for-jersey-retirement-as-devils-announce-honor-for-elias1

 

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1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I didn't hear that.  When did he say that?  This organization didn't retire Yzerman or Lidstrom's numbers until they actually retired. However, it was well known that those guys would have their jerseys retired someday. Can Holland state affirmatively that Datsyuk would be retired? 

 

Its in one of these threads. Ken said Zetters will be in the rafters when its all over. Nothing about Datsyuk. 

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10 hours ago, kickazz said:

Well steering back to the topic though.

Zetterberg's jersey is going to be retired. Called it. And so did Kliq and a few others. Everyone who called it is a good prognosticator. Pat yourselves on the back.  

Of course nothing is certain until it's actually done. For all we know Zetterberg could come out with a Mitch Albom interview tomorrow and say he's going back to Sweden to be with his dad then all of a sudden Christopher Illitch and mom let Holland know to give the media a different story about jersey retirement. 

Wait, what is the title of this Topic? Oh ya, Fedorov is ON topic, so back to topic as well. Without Fedorov this team is not what it was throughout the Dynasty. It'll be a travesty if 91 is not retired. 

He said his time is done in Detroit. He was angry they screwed him, but guess what, each time he was traded he said he'd welcome a trade back to Detroit. He still lived here. You guys who are butt hurt because "no one leaves us!" Need to let it go. Fedorov was just as important to this team as Yzerman and lidstrom. He was just as good as a leader on the ice as those two, he was an A for a bit for Pete's sake...get over it. Guarantee if Yzerman becomes GM he would be on the side of yes. He knows how important Sergei was to the success of the dynasty. Without him, whole different team.

Edited by LeftWinger

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26 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Wait, what is the title of this Topic? Oh ya, Fedorov is ON topic, so back to topic as well. Without Fedorov this team is not what it was throughout the Dynasty. It'll be a travesty if 91 is not retired. 

He said his time is done in Detroit. He was angry they screwed him, but guess what, each time he was traded he said he'd welcome a trade back to Detroit. He still lived here. You guys who are butt hurt because "no one leaves us!" Need to let it go. Fedorov was just as important to this team as Yzerman and lidstrom. He was just as good as a leader on the ice as those two, he was an A for a bit for Pete's sake...get over it. Guarantee if Yzerman becomes GM he would be on the side of yes. He knows how important Sergei was to the success of the dynasty. Without him, whole different team.

But you're not talking about what Regina wants to talk about.  That is not fetch.

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36 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Wait, what is the title of this Topic? Oh ya, Fedorov is ON topic, so back to topic as well. Without Fedorov this team is not what it was throughout the Dynasty. It'll be a travesty if 91 is not retired. 

He said his time is done in Detroit. He was angry they screwed him, but guess what, each time he was traded he said he'd welcome a trade back to Detroit. He still lived here. You guys who are butt hurt because "no one leaves us!" Need to let it go. Fedorov was just as important to this team as Yzerman and lidstrom. He was just as good as a leader on the ice as those two, he was an A for a bit for Pete's sake...get over it. Guarantee if Yzerman becomes GM he would be on the side of yes. He knows how important Sergei was to the success of the dynasty. Without him, whole different team.

Away from Montreal.

Are you having another rant session? Get over it, Fedorov pissed off the organization. You can't change how they feel. Justify it all you want for us but the organization gets to decide if they forgive him. 

Edited by kickazz

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Wait, what is the title of this Topic? Oh ya, Fedorov is ON topic, so back to topic as well. Without Fedorov this team is not what it was throughout the Dynasty. It'll be a travesty if 91 is not retired. 

He said his time is done in Detroit. He was angry they screwed him, but guess what, each time he was traded he said he'd welcome a trade back to Detroit. He still lived here. You guys who are butt hurt because "no one leaves us!" Need to let it go. Fedorov was just as important to this team as Yzerman and lidstrom. He was just as good as a leader on the ice as those two, he was an A for a bit for Pete's sake...get over it. Guarantee if Yzerman becomes GM he would be on the side of yes. He knows how important Sergei was to the success of the dynasty. Without him, whole different team.

We dont win in 97 or 02 without Shanahan, and we don't win in 98 without Holmstrom.

Should they both be retired? We are a very different team throughout the dynasty without these players.

Heck Holmstrom was even drafted here and stayed for his entire career, as probably the most elite net front presence of all time. Why are you not clamoring to retire 96?

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Wait, what is the title of this Topic? Oh ya, Fedorov is ON topic, so back to topic as well. Without Fedorov this team is not what it was throughout the Dynasty. It'll be a travesty if 91 is not retired. 

He said his time is done in Detroit. He was angry they screwed him, but guess what, each time he was traded he said he'd welcome a trade back to Detroit. He still lived here. You guys who are butt hurt because "no one leaves us!" Need to let it go. Fedorov was just as important to this team as Yzerman and lidstrom. He was just as good as a leader on the ice as those two, he was an A for a bit for Pete's sake...get over it. Guarantee if Yzerman becomes GM he would be on the side of yes. He knows how important Sergei was to the success of the dynasty. Without him, whole different team.

Like I said before, I do agree that he should have his jersey retired but your argument is so ridiculously over the top. Nobody "screwed" Fedorov, and the way you talk about Feds is like a parent who thinks their child can do no wrong and makes every excuse in the book to justify their child's actions. In literally every scenario brought up here, you manage to flip it to make him sound like the victim. I truly believe that if Fedorov himself read your comments, he would grin.

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2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Wait, what is the title of this Topic? Oh ya, Fedorov is ON topic, so back to topic as well. Without Fedorov this team is not what it was throughout the Dynasty. It'll be a travesty if 91 is not retired. 

He said his time is done in Detroit. He was angry they screwed him, but guess what, each time he was traded he said he'd welcome a trade back to Detroit. He still lived here. You guys who are butt hurt because "no one leaves us!" Need to let it go. Fedorov was just as important to this team as Yzerman and lidstrom. He was just as good as a leader on the ice as those two, he was an A for a bit for Pete's sake...get over it. Guarantee if Yzerman becomes GM he would be on the side of yes. He knows how important Sergei was to the success of the dynasty. Without him, whole different team.

Good leaders don't need their captain to come to them to keep their head up because the team needs them.  Fedorov did.

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I can't believe there's actually a person out there who victimizes Fedorov as much as this guy is. Even Fedorov and his old agents would be laughing their assess off right now. 

"Omg Fedorov didn't want to leave the first time"

Signs a contract sheet

"Omg Fedorov didn't want to leave the second time"

Fedorov ACTUALLY leaves.

 

 

Edited by kickazz

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We dont win in 97 or 02 without Shanahan, and we don't win in 98 without Holmstrom.

Should they both be retired? We are a very different team throughout the dynasty without these players.

Heck Holmstrom was even drafted here and stayed for his entire career, as probably the most elite net front presence of all time. Why are you not clamoring to retire 96?

I am. Have and still do. Crucial player for the wins.

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18 hours ago, kickazz said:

Well steering back to the topic though.

I really don't see why you thought my post was off the thread topic. I was directly responding to what Hockeymom and CRL said. I really think the standards for retired jerseys are pretty close to other teams as I've looked more into it and, by giving an example of that, I was arguing the validity of comparing to players and organizations outside.

Without comparing to other teams, there's no real comparables for Fed's situation within Red Wings history and you're left guessing at the hurt feelings from contract negotiations.

Having outside perspective, you can look at instances like Bobby Hull leaving the Blackhawks for the WHA's Winnipeg Jets for more money and still having his number retired by the Hawks. 

Or Pavel Bure declaring he wouldn't play for the Canucks again despite having a year left on his contract (shades of Datsyuk?). He even refused to report to the team next year. Yet, they retired his number.   

Or Ray Bourque demanding a trade from the Bruins, going to the Avs and was still Retired by the Bruins.

Or very recently, St. Louis had the conflict with Yzerman, demanded the trade from TB and put the team in a rough situation, but his number was retired a couple months ago.

So, considering these cases, you can write them off as due to different standards and think this organization holds grudges better than these other teams. Or you can see hope for Fedorov or maybe Datsyuk being retired. I'm on the side of the later. It's just speculation that says that the organization even holds a big grudge against Feds. We know they were close to bringing him back late in his career. That doesn't sound like much of a grudge to me.

I also think it's speculation that says we don't retire players that we had business conflicts with. One imperfect counter to that is that Ted LIndsey's #'s retired, though he butted heads with management constantly over trying to organize the player's union and he was traded due to this. Obviously, that's different than personal negotiations and he was retired by later owners (we do have a new owner, sort of...), but there's no other situation close to Fed's history within the Wings history.

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Lol, butthurt fans...sure the owners decide, but the only reason fans think he doesn't deserve it is because they're made at him...boo hoo. All the same fans that say he won't get retired also said he won't go into the HHOF. How'd that work out? Get over it. 

BTW, I'd love to see 96 go up there...

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3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Lol are people seriously not reading the reason for the thead bump.

Are you really laughing out loud?  The thread is about 4 players.  And Holland saying something carries about as much weight right now as a shoe.  

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Seriously bitching about people talking ON TOPIC? Who cares what Holland said about Z, great! His number is going up! We're all happy for it! That leaves 3 more players that are ON TOPIC and you're mad nobody wants to talk about Z. If Holland already said it's going up, then there's nothing left to debate. If you ask me, all 3 remaining deserve to go up as well as 96. Honor your players that created this masterpiece of a run.

If you ask me (again) the wings are too stingy about it. I'm not talking Colorado and Bourque but these 4 players and a couple others were direct reasons this franchise grew and stayed what it was for 25 years.

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