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Jacob Trouba

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I like Trouba, would love to have him here, is he a #1 D throughout the NHL? No. Would he be #1 here? Yes. With that being said, I think that with Winnipeg knowing he'd be our #1 that they'd inflate the asking price for us. So I agree with you guys it would cost more than just our 1st, and more than I'd be comfortable parting with. Unless we get shafted and wind up 10th, I think we sure just keep our pick unless a nice deal comes along that improves us and doesn't take away from our building core. 

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37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You're correct, Trouba isn't a #1 defenseman. He's #2 on his team behind Byflugien. And as a #2 he logs some of the heaviest minutes in the league. Only 10 D-men in the league log more minutes per game than him (Byflugien among them). He plays more minutes per game than OEL, Burns, Hedman, Subban, McDonagh, Giordano.....

He's doing this, and putting up 33 pts per game in 60 games played, at the age of 23. The only other young Dman doing this right now is Rasmus Ristolainen.

I don't know a lot about Trouba, or watch him very much at all, but it sure seems like you are writing him off. There is lots of room for him to grow yet, and he's already doing a lot. 

I agree. Trouba is a great young defenseman. Future stud in my opinion. I just had no idea he was putting up those godly numbers... :w00t:

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10 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

He's doing less than Kronwall did in his best years and people argue he wasn't a #1.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

In Kronwall's best years he absolutely was a number one defenseman. However when Kronwall was Trouba's age, he was in his rookie season, and put up 5 points (1 goal, 4 assists) in 20 games... I think it's 100% reasonable to believe that Trouba will be better than Kronwall ever was, and could hit 50+ points once he hits his prime (next 4 years).

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24 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

He's doing less than Kronwall did in his best years and people argue he wasn't a #1.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

Kronwall first hit Trouba's offensive numbers during the 08 championship season. He was was 27 and logging 4 less minutes a game than Trouba is now.

Trouba is lightyears ahead of where Kronwall was at 23. Kronwall was still a Griffin at 23.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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12 hours ago, kliq said:

Agreed, you were crystal clear that you thought Trouba was better then Smith, that point wasn't lost on me, my apologies if I articulated my point to where that wasn't clear. The problem with your comparison is that Trouba and Smith are not on the same level, and by comparing them you are subtly bringing Trouba down a peg in terms of perception. You are an extremely smart guy Kip, I know you know this as the main point of your post was to bring the perception of Trouba down.

To be fair though, you said nothing about his flaws being overlooked, maybe that was your intention, but your exact words were:

"Trouba isn't a #1 defenseman.  He's not going to develop into one either.  He's a perfectly good defenseman, but if you want a top guy (and everyone seems to) then it's not going to be him.  His offense just isn't' good enough."

The main part of my point is that he is on a trajectory that says otherwise (see the stats I already posted). I brought up stats because you said his offense isnt good enough.

I get it, some (possibly myself included) put him on a pedestal, and it's annoying when people do that, but it doesn't mean the kid doesn't have the potential, only time will tell. I think he will become a 1A d-man, you don't, the only thing we can do is see what happens.

I'm not trying to "bring him down at all".  He's a solid 2-3 defenseman.  Just like Dekeyser is.  I wouldn't even be opposed to signing him as an FA.  But I'm opposed to giving up a package befitting a future #1 defenseman when he's not going to be one.

Everyone keeps saying that he's got "potential" to be a top defenseman.  He doesn't.  Kronwall, who pretty much all of LGW (other than me) believes wasn't ever a true #1 defeneman dramatically outperformed Trouba over his first  250-ish games.  Dion Phaneuf, who pretty much all of the hockey world thinks isn't a true #1 Defenseman dramatically outperformed Trouba over his first 250-ish games.  Same with Shattenkirk.  I'm just not sure why everyone thinks that a guy who's developed at a slower rate than those guys will turn out better?  The answer, of course, is that many folks REALLY LIKE Trouba, and so they want it to be true.  But it's not.  He'll likely never put up the kind of offense that would qualify him as a legit #1, which is what everyone is saying he "has the potential" to be.

Trouba just had a "career" year, and he scored 33 points.  On one of the league's top offensive teams.  He got plenty of minutes, at 5 on 5, AND on the powerplay, and he benefited from Tyler Myers being injured all season. So there was nothing to stop him from scoring more, other than his own ability, and he only put up middling offensive numbers.  True #1 defenseman put up 40+ points consistently.  Trouba hasn't been able to do that despite having very favorable conditions to do so.  I have no idea why people think he will on our team. 

Edited by kipwinger

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14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not trying to "bring him down at all".  He's a solid 2-3 defenseman.  Just like Dekeyser is.  I wouldn't even be opposed to signing him as an FA.  But I'm opposed to giving up a package befitting a future #1 defenseman when he's not going to be one.

Everyone keeps saying that he's got "potential" to be a top defenseman.  He doesn't.  Kronwall, who pretty much all of LGW (other than me) believes wasn't ever a true #1 defeneman dramatically outperformed Trouba over his first  250-ish games.  Dion Phaneuf, who pretty much all of the hockey world thinks isn't a true #1 Defenseman dramatically outperformed Trouba over his first 250-ish games.  Same with Shattenkirk.  I'm just not sure why everyone thinks that a guy who's developed at a slower rate than those guys will turn out better?  The answer, of course, is that many folks REALLY LIKE Trouba, and so they want it to be true.  But it's not.  He'll likely never put up the kind of offense that would qualify him as a legit #1, which is what everyone is saying he "has the potential" to be.

Trouba just had a "career" year, and he scored 33 points.  On one of the league's top offensive teams.  He got plenty of minutes, at 5 on 5, AND on the powerplay, and he benefited from Tyler Myers being injured all season. So there was nothing to stop him from scoring more, other than his own ability, and he only put up middling offensive numbers.  True #1 defenseman put up 40+ points consistently.  Trouba hasn't been able to do that despite having very favorable conditions to do so.  I have no idea why people think he will on our team. 

You know he played in only 60 games right? 33 points in 60 games is on pace for 45 points in 82 games, which falls in line with your own parameters. Sure he hasn't done this consistently, but at 23 he hasn't had time to anything consistently. Like I said, only time will tell.

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Still I don't trade AA for Trouba, and I'm probably one of the biggest fan of getting him here. Let's see where our draft lottery ends up. Then we'll see what type of player we can expect to get or trade return.

If players like Trouba are going cost too much in trade, I say keep what you have, draft the best kid you can and try to score Shattenkirk as plan A. If you can't land him, then plan B starts with exploring trade routes. 

Does anyone know if the expansion draft is before or after the amateur draft? That could play a big role in needs moving forward. 

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Just now, kliq said:

You know he played in only 60 games right? 33 points in 60 games is on pace for 45 points in 82 games, which falls in line with your own parameters. Sure he hasn't done this consistently, but at 23 he hasn't had time to anything consistently. Like I said, only time will tell.

Right, but so far in his (admittedly young) career he typically only plays about 60 odd games a year.  Also plenty of true #1 defensemen did perform at consistently higher levels than Trouba has, at the same stange of their careers.  Subban did.  Josi did.  Hamilton did.  Doughty did.  Karlsson did.  Ekman-Larsson did.  You're acting like nobody ever performs at a high level when they're young.  But plenty of guys do.  Top defensemen do.  And he hasn't.  So I'm not sure why you think age is the reason.  Pretty much ALL of the top defensemen in the league have done something that Trouba hasn't, yet folks still argue that he's probably going to be like them.  I just don't see it.  To me he seems more similar to Phaneuf, Fowler, Vlasic, or Bouwmeester.  Certainly his career thus far has been more like theirs than it has been like a top guy.  What makes you think he's going to blossom into a top defenseman after coming to our offensively inept team?

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4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Right, but so far in his (admittedly young) career he typically only plays about 60 odd games a year.  Also plenty of true #1 defensemen did perform at consistently higher levels than Trouba has, at the same stange of their careers.  Subban did.  Josi did.  Hamilton did.  Doughty did.  Karlsson did.  Ekman-Larsson did.  You're acting like nobody ever performs at a high level when they're young.  But plenty of guys do.  Top defensemen do.  And he hasn't.  So I'm not sure why you think age is the reason.  Pretty much ALL of the top defensemen in the league have done something that Trouba hasn't, yet folks still argue that he's probably going to be like them.  I just don't see it.  To me he seems more similar to Phaneuf, Fowler, Vlasic, or Bouwmeester.  Certainly his career thus far has been more like theirs than it has been like a top guy.  What makes you think he's going to blossom into a top defenseman after coming to our offensively inept team?

Subban and Josi didn't break out offensively until they were each 24. Trouba is 23.

He's been on pace for around 40 pts for all but his one down year, last year.

And he's currently logging bigger minutes than almost everyone you listed, and at a very young age.

I'm not in love with Trouba by any means, and I don't advocate trading him for him, but you seem very certain there's no room to grow with this kid, which I think is far from certain.

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Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Subban and Josi didn't break out offensively until they were each 24. Trouba is 23.

He's been on pace for around 40 pts for all but his one down year, last year.

And he's currently logging bigger minutes than almost everyone you listed, and at a very young age.

I'm not in love with Trouba by any means, and I don't advocate trading him for him, but you seem very certain there's no room to grow with this kid, which I think is far from certain.

You're talking about a matter of months in their age here.  And at least they did break out.  He still hasn't, if indeed he can. 

I'm not suggesting that guys can't grow.  I'm suggesting that a guy who's consistently played 60ish games, with offensive numbers that haven't really impressed, probably isn't worth gambling on.  He's MUCH more likely to continue to be slightly above average than he is to have a "break out" season on our s***ty team.  Why not wait, see if he does break out, and then sign him in FA at his actual worth after he's PROVEN he can be a high end guy?

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26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Right, but so far in his (admittedly young) career he typically only plays about 60 odd games a year.  Also plenty of true #1 defensemen did perform at consistently higher levels than Trouba has, at the same stange of their careers.  Subban did.  Josi did.  Hamilton did.  Doughty did.  Karlsson did.  Ekman-Larsson did.  You're acting like nobody ever performs at a high level when they're young.  But plenty of guys do.  Top defensemen do.  And he hasn't.  So I'm not sure why you think age is the reason.  Pretty much ALL of the top defensemen in the league have done something that Trouba hasn't, yet folks still argue that he's probably going to be like them.  I just don't see it.  To me he seems more similar to Phaneuf, Fowler, Vlasic, or Bouwmeester.  Certainly his career thus far has been more like theirs than it has been like a top guy.  What makes you think he's going to blossom into a top defenseman after coming to our offensively inept team?

Not sure what you're trying to say with this. He missed he first 15 games due to the contract dispute plus 2 for a suspension for a head hit. He's been healthy the last 2 years and only missed 6 games due to injuries.

If you were implying he's injured a lot, you should look at those explanations. He had 1 bigger injury in his 2nd year when he tried to eat the boards. The first year, I'd imagine the missed games would be scratched for a player in his first year pro.

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3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're talking about a matter of months in their age here.  And at least they did break out.  He still hasn't, if indeed he can. 

I'm not suggesting that guys can't grow.  I'm suggesting that a guy who's consistently played 60ish games, with offensive numbers that haven't really impressed, probably isn't worth gambling on.  He's MUCH more likely to continue to be slightly above average than he is to have a "break out" season on our s***ty team.  Why not wait, see if he does break out, and then sign him in FA at his actual worth after he's PROVEN he can be a high end guy?

What's unimpressive about his scoring? He was on pace for 45 pts this season. More than Doughty, Weber, McDonagh, Subban, Suter, Giordano, OEL.

And he's younger than all those guys and logging bigger minutes per game than the majority of them.

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1 minute ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Not sure what you're trying to say with this. He missed he first 15 games due to the contract dispute plus 2 for a suspension for a head hit. He's been healthy the last 2 years and only missed 6 games due to injuries.

If you were implying he's injured a lot, you should look at those explanations. He had 1 bigger injury in his 2nd year when he tried to eat the boards. The first year, I'd imagine the missed games would be scratched for a player in his first year pro.

My point is that for whatever reasons he hasn't proven anything yet with his play.  So why gamble on the guy? He's young.  If he proves he's a high end player then sign him as an FA.  If not, then you haven't lost anything, aside from a bunch of high end assets for a guy who may, or more likely may not, turn into the thing everyone agrees we really need. 

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Just now, kipwinger said:

My point is that for whatever reasons he hasn't proven anything yet with his play.  So why gamble on the guy? He's young.  If he proves he's a high end player then sign him as an FA.  If not, then you haven't lost anything, aside from a bunch of high end assets for a guy who may, or more likely may not, turn into the thing everyone agrees we really need. 

He was on pace for 45 pts and plays 25 minutes a night consistently. What more does he need to do to prove himself in your eyes? That's pretty impressive for a 28 year old, let alone a 23 year old, in my book.

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2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What's unimpressive about his scoring? He was on pace for 45 pts this season. More than Doughty, Weber, McDonagh, Subban, Suter, Giordano, OEL.

And he's younger than all those guys and logging bigger minutes per game than the majority of them.

Well, to begin with, roughly 50 defenseman had better years (offensively) than he did.  And most of them have a track record of doing so.  Who cares if some guys had a down year?  In order to have a "down year" you have to have had a series of "up" years.  Something Trouba has never, ever, done despite the fact that plenty of "top defenseman" have done so at the same stages of their careers that Trouba is now. 

I'd be all for it if we were talking about a guy like Hamilton, who scored 40, 40, and 50 points the last 3 seasons on two different teams.  That's a safe bet and one I'd be willing to part with assets for. 

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

My point is that for whatever reasons he hasn't proven anything yet with his play.  So why gamble on the guy? He's young.  If he proves he's a high end player then sign him as an FA.  If not, then you haven't lost anything, aside from a bunch of high end assets for a guy who may, or more likely may not, turn into the thing everyone agrees we really need. 

I'm fine with waiting until he's a UFA - especially since his local ties point to us having a good chance. And I wouldn't give the high assets that some are talking about.

I just think pointing to him playing roughly 60 games ignores his actual story when judging what he's proven. It's not a reason to stay away from him due to the explanations. And It doesn't represent a trend that you would expect to continue (unless you think he's going to have a contract dispute every year).

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8 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I'm fine with waiting until he's a UFA - especially since his local ties point to us having a good chance. And I wouldn't give the high assets that some are talking about.

I just think pointing to him playing roughly 60 games ignores his actual story when judging what he's proven. It's not a reason to stay away from him due to the explanations. And It doesn't represent a trend that you would expect to continue (unless you think he's going to have a contract dispute every year).

Well a contract dispute, this early in his career, isn't exactly reassuring to me either.  But we'll chalk that up to youthful exuberance lol.  What I do know is that when Winnipeg needed another big minute righty to play on their blueline they didn't give those minutes to Trouba (a guy already on the team), they traded for Myers.  THEN they didn't give Trouba the (rumored) big contract he though he deserved, and he copped an attitude about it.  So I'm not the only person not convinced of his potential apparently. 

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2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Well, to begin with, roughly 50 defenseman had better years (offensively) than he did.  And most of them have a track record of doing so.  Who cares if some guys had a down year?  In order to have a "down year" you have to have had a series of "up" years.  Something Trouba has never, ever, done despite the fact that plenty of "top defenseman" have done so at the same stages of their careers that Trouba is now. 

I'd be all for it if we were talking about a guy like Hamilton, who scored 40, 40, and 50 points the last 3 seasons on two different teams.  That's a safe bet and one I'd be willing to part with assets for. 

Hamilton
20: Pace 31 pts
21: Pace 32 pts
22: Pace 47 pts
23: Pace 43 pts
24: Pace 50 pts

Trouba
20: Pace 36 pts
21: Pace 28 pts
22: Pace 21 pts
23: Pace 45 pts

Hamilton broke out at 22, Trouba is breaking out at 23. Hamilton has a more consistent track record so far, but that's about his only advantage besides slightly more points this season.

Hamilton has averages 2+ minutes of powerplay time a game since he entered the league. Trouba averages about 1 minute 30 over his career.

Trouba is also relied upon heavily for penalty killing, whereas Hamilton is hardly used at all on the PK. Trouba's also logging way more 5 on 5 time.

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7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Well a contract dispute, this early in his career, isn't exactly reassuring to me either.  But we'll chalk that up to youthful exuberance lol.  What I do know is that when Winnipeg needed another big minute righty to play on their blueline they didn't give those minutes to Trouba (a guy already on the team), they traded for Myers.  THEN they didn't give Trouba the (rumored) big contract he though he deserved, and he copped an attitude about it.  So I'm not the only person not convinced of his potential apparently. 

Not true. Myers and and Trouba played nearly identical minutes throughout Myers first 2 seasons with Winnipeg. Trouba's minutes did not take a hit at all when Myers joined the team.

Now Trouba is playing nearly 3 more minutes a night than Myers.

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1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Hamilton
20: Pace 31 pts
21: Pace 32 pts
22: Pace 47 pts
23: Pace 43 pts
24: Pace 50 pts

Trouba
20: Pace 36 pts
21: Pace 28 pts
22: Pace 21 pts
23: Pace 45 pts

Hamilton broke out at 22, Trouba is breaking out at 23. Hamilton has a more consistent track record so far, but that's about his only advantage besides slightly more points this season.

Hamilton has averages 2+ minutes of powerplay time a game since he entered the league. Trouba averages about 1 minute 30 over his career.

Trouba is also relied upon heavily for penalty killing, whereas Hamilton is hardly used at all on the PK. Trouba's also logging way more 5 on 5 time.

Your stats above indicate that Hamilton is a much better point producer over his career.  Which is my point.  I'm not giving up big assets, or big money, for a defenseman that doesn't score well.  I don't give a s*** how well he kills penalties lol.  Most #1 defenemen DON'T kill penalties, and for good reason.  You have to ask yourself WHY Trouba doesn't get powerplay time.  Could it be that he's NOT that good offensively?  Probably.  Otherwise you seem to be arguing that a guy with all this skill is not seeing it utilized, presumably because his coach is A) an idiot, or B) wants to lose.  Both are absurd.  His coach seems to get pretty good offense out of the rest of his team. 

As I've said already, what makes you think that Trouba is going to dramatically change his game after coming to our offensively inept team?  The likelihood is he'll put up WORSE numbers, which only further calls into question the rationale for giving up assets and/or signing him to a big contract.  Let him prove he can do it in Winnipeg and then sign him as an FA I say. 

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not true. Myers and and Trouba played nearly identical minutes throughout Myers first 2 seasons with Winnipeg. Trouba's minutes did not take a hit at all when Myers joined the team.

Now Trouba is playing nearly 3 more minutes a night than Myers.

That's because you're looking at total TOI per game, which includes PK time.  Also, Myers only played 11 games this year due to injury.  Last season he played more at even strength AND on the powerplay than Trouba did.  Trouba's ice time goes up when you factor in PK time.  Again, "top" defensemen don't kill penalties very often.  When his team needs offense, the minutes haven't gone to Trouba (except this year because Myers wasn't available), they've gone to Myers.

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2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Your stats above indicate that Hamilton is a much better point producer over his career.  Which is my point.  I'm not giving up big assets, or big money, for a defenseman that doesn't score well.  I don't give a s*** how well he kills penalties lol.  Most #1 defenemen DON'T kill penalties, and for good reason.  You have to ask yourself WHY Trouba doesn't get powerplay time.  Could it be that he's NOT that good offensively?  Probably.  Otherwise you seem to be arguing that a guy with all this skill is not seeing it utilized, presumably because his coach is A) an idiot, or B) wants to lose.  Both are absurd.  His coach seems to get pretty good offense out of the rest of his team. 

As I've said already, what makes you think that Trouba is going to dramatically change his game after coming to our offensively inept team?  The likelihood is he'll put up WORSE numbers, which only further calls into question the rationale for giving up assets and/or signing him to a big contract.  Let him prove he can do it in Winnipeg and then sign him as an FA I say. 

Trouba produced similar numbers to Hamilton this season playing less on the PP and playing WAY more short-handed. And yet he was only on pace for 5 less points than Hamilton.

I fail to see how you think this kid offensively inept. Despite being deployed defensively he's still producing well above average point numbers for a D-man.

Wouldn't Hamilton also produce WORSE numbers here in Detroit? I fail to see how that furthers your point.

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Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Trouba produced similar numbers to Hamilton this season playing less on the PP and playing WAY more short-handed. And yet he was only on pace for 5 less points than Hamilton.

I fail to see how you think this kid offensively inept. Despite being deployed defensively he's still producing well above average point numbers for a D-man.

Wouldn't Hamilton also produce WORSE numbers here in Detroit? I fail to see how that furthers your point.

I didn't say he was offensively inept.  I said he's a good 2-3 defenseman, which his numbers indicate.  You seem to be arguing that if you give him 25 minutes a night AND a ton of powerplay time, that he'll score more (something that's true of every single player in the league).  But there's a reason why his team has been unwilling to give those kinds of minutes to Trouba (unless forced to by Myers injury).  And I suspect that the reason why is because they don't think he's as capable as people like you do.  So why spend the assets on him before he proves otherwise?  If the plays out his contract in Winnipeg, earns the ice time, and puts up points I'd be happy to sign him.  I'm just not convinced of this vast potential that everyone else seems to really believe in.

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