1/31 GDT - Sharks @ Red Wings - 8:00 PM EST

[gcom007 1,465]

18 hours ago, kickazz said:

OMG YES PLEASE KEEP FIGHTING.

I miss the old days where were all fought. Now it's just me against the world.

Tell em @LeftWinger

Tell em @ChristopherReevesLegs / @number9

@rick zombo @jimmyemeryhunter @kipwinger Ya'll wanna get on this Franzen vs Hossa fight as a throwback again too? 

Rick? rick?? Rick you there??? 

NOOOOOO he's gone :*( 

Damn you @Bill Berzeench this is all your fault. 

 

I’m totally in for an old school Franzen vs Hossa fight. Should’ve kept Hossa and let Franzen and company walk. Hossa is a world class player at both ends of the ice. Holland got his head up his ass about his own prospects again and let the real deal walk, and then most of his guys walked and he strapped up the Mule for 19 years or something. Everything is pain. The most clear-cut beginning of Holland’s decline as a GM was how he handled that situation. That was the first big sign that he was losing his grip on the wheel. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, gcom007 said:

I’m totally in for an old school Franzen vs Hossa fight. Should’ve kept Hossa and let Franzen and company walk. Hossa is a world class player at both ends of the ice. Holland got his head up his ass about his own prospects again and let the real deal walk, and then most of his guys walked and he strapped up the Mule for 19 years or something. Everything is pain. The most clear-cut beginning of Holland’s decline as a GM was how he handled that situation. That was the first big sign that he was losing his grip on the wheel. 

Hossa is easily the better and more well-rounded player, but hindsight is 20/20

It was either Franzen @ $4 for 11 years, or Hossa @ $5.3 for 12 years. The critique on both those contracts was always length, because besides that, both players were EXTREMELY effective for that low of a cap hit. Any GM would be thrilled to have either of those players on those respective cap hits.

The advantage to Franzen was he offered us a lower cap hit, and was a playoff MONSTER at that time. Hossa was definitely an effective player, but he didn't perform nearly as well as Franzen did in those playoffs. Going back knowing what I know now would I have picked Hossa? Definitely. But looking at it from a 2009 perspective it's easy to see why Holland made the decision he did whether you agree with it or not. So I think you're being more than over the top suggesting Holland was losing his the grip on the wheel when he made that decision.

Even with the steadily growing number of concussions, Franzen was just outside a point per game player almost every season of his career. With a healthy brain and motor functions who knows how much better he could have performed in seasons post 2009. That decline in health was completely unpredictable at the time. 

 

[kickazz 5,459]

31 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hossa is easily the better and more well-rounded player, but hindsight is 20/20

It was either Franzen @ $4 for 11 years, or Hossa @ $5.3 for 12 years. The critique on both those contracts was always length, because besides that, both players were EXTREMELY effective for that low of a cap hit. Any GM would be thrilled to have either of those players on those respective cap hits.

The advantage to Franzen was he offered us a lower cap hit, and was a playoff MONSTER at that time. Hossa was definitely an effective player, but he didn't perform nearly as well as Franzen did in those playoffs. Going back knowing what I know now would I have picked Hossa? Definitely. But looking at it from a 2009 perspective it's easy to see why Holland made the decision he did whether you agree with it or not. So I think you're being more than over the top suggesting Holland was losing his the grip on the wheel when he made that decision.

Even with the steadily growing number of concussions, Franzen was just outside a point per game player almost every season of his career. With a healthy brain and motor functions who knows how much better he could have performed in seasons post 2009. That decline in health was completely unpredictable at the time. 

 

Blah blah blah

The only reason Franzen got signed was because Zetterberg demanded his Swedish boy gets signed.

Z and Hossa were boys too but not as close as the Swedish connection. 

That’s the truth and you know it.

[gcom007 1,465]

32 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hossa is easily the better and more well-rounded player, but hindsight is 20/20

It was either Franzen @ $4 for 11 years, or Hossa @ $5.3 for 12 years. The critique on both those contracts was always length, because besides that, both players were EXTREMELY effective for that low of a cap hit. Any GM would be thrilled to have either of those players on those respective cap hits.

The advantage to Franzen was he offered us a lower cap hit, and was a playoff MONSTER at that time. Hossa was definitely an effective player, but he didn't perform nearly as well as Franzen did in those playoffs. Going back knowing what I know now would I have picked Hossa? Definitely. But looking at it from a 2009 perspective it's easy to see why Holland made the decision he did whether you agree with it or not. So I think you're being more than over the top suggesting Holland was losing his the grip on the wheel when he made that decision.

Even with the steadily growing number of concussions, Franzen was just outside a point per game player almost every season of his career. With a healthy brain and motor functions who knows how much better he could have performed in seasons post 2009. That decline in health was completely unpredictable at the time. 

 

Did anyone ever stop to think that Holland kinda at least had a big hand in inventing that sort of insane ultra-long term model which is no longer allowed under the CBA and has largely become to be seen as a stupid approach and a surefire way to f*** a team over? And then all the long deals since that look so good...I'll give him this: he's very optimistic.

And give me a break. Franzen was a beast then for a minute, sure, but he was coming off a couple strong runs. Hossa was the real deal. Hossa is a franchise player on many teams in the league. And he had that killer work ethic that's great to have in the locker room with a lot of young guys coming up. When a guy like that wants to be here, you find a way to make it work. I said it then, I'll say it now. I liked Franzen a lot more then than now obviously; hindsight is 20/20 in that sense, but still, the smarter hockey move in 2009 was finding any way you could to keep Hossa and extend the length of time we've got truly elite players in the dressing room. Guys like Hossa help attract guys like Hossa too, don't forget that.

I'm not saying it was the more horrible move in history, and I get why it was tough, but I thought it was the wrong move then as I do now, because it wasn't the smart hockey move, and it truly was the beginning of his public bumbling of this team. He was caught flat-footed that off-season, and he hasn't recovered since.

9 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Blah blah blah

The only reason Franzen got signed was because Zetterberg demanded his Swedish boy gets signed.

Z and Hossa were boys too but not as close as the Swedish connection. 

That’s the truth and you know it.

Who was talking about Swedish mafia as if it was a real thing awhile back? Those were some funny articles.

[gcom007 1,465]

Please note, I'm not trying to rag on Franzen. He got screwed over by concussions/injuries, no doubt. I don't fault him for that and I'm not even saying the deal on paper isn't great. $4 million for a lifetime of healthy Franzen would've been nice. I mean, ideally I wanted them to keep both guys. If you have to choose, I say keep Hossa. Hossa would've been a $5-5.5 million cap hit (didn't he sign in Chicago at $5.5, which seems insane relative to some of our contracts now, and by insane I mean deeply depressing, Abdelkader...) which wasn't a huge stretch past Franzen relative to the fact that you still get plenty of offense and Selke-caliber defense, and again, that killer work ethic and example and bonafide star power. I always liked Franzen and don't think less of him now. When I say it's a no-brainer to go with Hossa, it had a lot more to do with Hossa than knocking on Franzen, and that remains true even in hindsight. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

23 minutes ago, gcom007 said:

Did anyone ever stop to think that Holland kinda at least had a big hand in inventing that sort of insane ultra-long term model which is no longer allowed under the CBA and has largely become to be seen as a stupid approach and a surefire way to f*** a team over? And then all the long deals since that look so good...I'll give him this: he's very optimistic.

And give me a break. Franzen was a beast then for a minute, sure, but he was coming off a couple strong runs. Hossa was the real deal. Hossa is a franchise player on many teams in the league. And he had that killer work ethic that's great to have in the locker room with a lot of young guys coming up. When a guy like that wants to be here, you find a way to make it work. I said it then, I'll say it now. I liked Franzen a lot more then than now obviously; hindsight is 20/20 in that sense, but still, the smarter hockey move in 2009 was finding any way you could to keep Hossa and extend the length of time we've got truly elite players in the dressing room. Guys like Hossa help attract guys like Hossa too, don't forget that.

I'm not saying it was the more horrible move in history, and I get why it was tough, but I thought it was the wrong move then as I do now, because it wasn't the smart hockey move, and it truly was the beginning of his public bumbling of this team. He was caught flat-footed that off-season, and he hasn't recovered since.

Who was talking about Swedish mafia as if it was a real thing awhile back? Those were some funny articles.

This is the problem I have with those who love to harp on and on about this decision. Even though I've made it clear I would've picked Hossa knowing what I know now as well, you're still looking at it from a now perspective. Smarter hockey move, caught flat-footed, beginning of the bumbling of this team, yada yada yada, none of that was clear in 2009. 

Franzen WAS a BEAST in the playoffs for three straight seasons, don't downplay it. Hossa on the other hand was lackluster in the playoffs for us compared to his season and what was expected of him. Franzen was looking like a playoff nightmare for opposing teams at the time and he continued that reign of dominance in 2010 before his health started declining.

Don't forget that 1.3 saving is the entire salary of another roster player too. We also had the future to think about with guys like Filppula and Hudler who we still struggled to get under the cap.

I'm not trying to convince you that Franzen was the better choice, but the whole rhetoric of LOL HOLLAND IS A FOOL AND CLEARLY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END is just silly. He had a tough choice to make with two great options in front of him. It's a good problem to have, and neither player ended up a bust. To you Hossa may have been the clear cut choice, but not to me, Holland, and definitely others at the time.

And yeah Holland pioneered weird long term contracts. Franzen getting destroyed by concussions in a way kinda saved him from himself there.

EDIT: Just saw your 2nd post

Edited February 2, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[gcom007 1,465]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is the problem I have with those who love to harp on and on about this decision. Even though I've made it clear I would've picked Hossa knowing what I know now as well, you're still looking at it from a now perspective. Smarter hockey move, caught flat-footed, beginning of the bumbling of this team, yada yada yada, none of that was clear in 2009. 

Franzen WAS a BEAST in the playoffs for three straight seasons, don't downplay it. Hossa on the other hand was lackluster in the playoffs for us compared to his season and what was expected of him. Franzen was looking like a playoff nightmare for opposing teams at the time and he continued that reign of dominance in 2010 before his health started declining.

Don't forget that 1.3 saving is the entire salary of another roster player too. We also had the future to think about with guys like Filppula and Hudler who we still struggled to get under the cap.

I'm not trying to convince you that Franzen was the better choice, but the whole rhetoric of LOL HOLLAND IS A FOOL AND CLEARLY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END is just silly. He had a tough choice to make with two great options in front of him. It's a good problem to have, and neither player ended up a bust. To you Hossa may have been the clear cut choice, but not to me, Holland, and definitely others at the time.

And yeah Holland pioneered weird long term contracts. Franzen getting destroyed by concussions in a way kinda saved him from himself there.

EDIT: Just saw your 2nd post

My deal with Holland that year was everything. All his UFAs and even an RFA walked and he was in his own words "shocked." He didn't get ahead of much of anything and got caught flat-footed. It wasn't just Hossa/Franzen, it was the whole situation in summer 2009. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 minutes ago, gcom007 said:

My deal with Holland that year was everything. All his UFAs and even an RFA walked and he was in his own words "shocked." He didn't get ahead of much of anything and got caught flat-footed. It wasn't just Hossa/Franzen, it was the whole situation in summer 2009. 

It's Lidstrom's fault for not scoring that late goal in game 7. Things would have been different. 

[gcom007 1,465]

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It's Lidstrom's fault for not scoring that late goal in game 7. Things would have been different. 

I forgot who I blame for that s***. I just remember the anger and disgust watching Crosby skate towards Bettman. Then I walked away from the screen and pissed and moaned outside. Great night.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

What I wanna know is what everyone thinks of Mantha at this point... especially after this board pissed and moaned about Franzen on a daily basis.

Franzen built like a powerforward: check
Mantha built like a powerforward: check

Franzen soft as baby s***: check
Mantha soft as baby s***: check

Franzen gifted goalscorer: check
Mantha gifted goalscorer: check

Franzen disappears and becomes invisible at times: check
Mantha disappears and becomes invisible at times: check

Mantha is taller and Canadian, but that is literally almost the only difference between these players. Same exact style of hockey. So where is the Mantha hate? 

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What I wanna know is what everyone thinks of Mantha at this point... especially after this board pissed and moaned about Franzen on a daily basis.

Franzen built like a powerforward: check
Mantha built like a powerforward: check

Franzen soft as baby s***: check
Mantha soft as baby s***: check

Franzen gifted goalscorer: check
Mantha gifted goalscorer: check

Franzen disappears and becomes invisible at times: check
Mantha disappears and becomes invisible at times: check

Mantha is taller and Canadian, but that is literally almost the only difference between these players. Same exact style of hockey. So where is the Mantha hate? 

 

I personally think he has been very disappointing these last few weeks, but am hopeful it's just growing pains. 

If this is what we continue to see from him over the rest of the season, criticism will be well warranted (not that it isn't warranted now by any means).

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I personally think he has been very disappointing these last few weeks, but am hopeful it's just growing pains. 

If this is what we continue to see from him over the rest of the season, criticism will be well warranted (not that it isn't warranted now by any means).

I think this board gives undue passes to young players.

Personally I don't care what age a player is, there is good play and bad play. If Franzen's play was unacceptable to you, Mantha's current play should be unacceptable to you as well. I don't see the need to give Mantha special treatment. If you're excuse for him is he's too young, then he should be sent down. To me, he's not too young, he's just not bringing it every night.  

[marcaractac 3,963]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think this board gives undue passes to young players.

Personally I don't care what age a player is, there is good play and bad play. If Franzen's play was unacceptable to you, Mantha's current play should be unacceptable to you as well. I don't see the need to give Mantha special treatment. If you're excuse for him is he's too young, then he should be sent down. To me, he's not too young, he's just not bringing it every night.  

I agree. I think there can be some forgiveness if a young player is making some mistakes for sure. But when it comes to an apparent lack of effort for long stretches, I say ***** away and it's justified. 

Like when Larkin has a tough night, it's easy for me to be understanding of that as a fan, as even during a rough game he is still working his ass off. The same cannot be said for Mantha right now. He has flat out been bad lately. At least Franzen still had value to the team when he wasn't scoring, as he was still really good defensively. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

Basically, if Mantha is gonna continuously have these scoring droughts, he better damn well learn to make himself useful elsewhere on the ice as well. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Just now, marcaractac said:

Basically, if Mantha is gonna continuously have these scoring droughts, he better damn well learn to make himself useful elsewhere on the ice as well. 

I agree. Blashill made statements recently like "I still have my eye on the playoffs, this team can make it" and everyone goes "hur dur, what an idiot, this team isn't winning squat" but to me that's him trying to keep young players like Mantha and AA motivated. My biggest worry with this team was that it was going to lose it's winning culture when the streak ended. I don't wanna see young players like AA and Mantha phone it in because the grind of the season is getting to them and "we probably won't make it anyway". That's a losing attitude and we absolutely need to keep our foot on the peddle no matter the outcome. My thinking is that is Blashill's way of instilling that. 

AA and Mantha both have been critiqued over the their careers for being lazy or bad on the defensive side of the puck. If they're going to be future pillars on this team that can't be allowed to continue by any means. Neither are good enough to only be scoring players. The breakaway thing for AA is a one-tick pony act, and it's dried up. Mantha has gone incognito mode. Both need to be better right now. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I agree. Blashill made statements recently like "I still have my eye on the playoffs, this team can make it" and everyone goes "hur dur, what an idiot, this team isn't winning squat" but to me that's him trying to keep young players like Mantha and AA motivated. My biggest worry with this team was that it was going to lose it's winning culture when the streak ended. I don't wanna see young players like AA and Mantha phone it in because the grind of the season is getting to them and "we probably won't make it anyway". That's a losing attitude and we absolutely need to keep our foot on the peddle no matter the outcome. My thinking is that is Blashill's way of instilling that. 

AA and Mantha both have been critiqued over the their careers for being lazy or bad on the defensive side of the puck. If they're going to be future pillars on this team that can't be allowed to continue by any means. Neither are good enough to only be scoring players. The breakaway thing for AA is a one-tick pony act, and it's dried up. Mantha has gone incognito mode. Both need to be better right now. 

This is why Mantha and AA should get bridge deals, and Larkin should get his 8 year deal this summer. 

[kickazz 5,459]

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

This is why Mantha and AA should get bridge deals, and Larkin should get his 8 year deal this summer. 

Agreed. But not sure about an 8 year deal, maybe 4-5. Larkin still isn't fully proven imo

[marcaractac 3,963]

5 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Agreed. But not sure about an 8 year deal, maybe 4-5. Larkin still isn't fully proven imo

I think he is a safe enough bet to be a top 6 center for a long time. Locking him in max term now can be huge for the cap in a few short years. Of all the long contracts Holland has thrown around these last few years, Larkin is THE one who actually should be getting one. 

[chaps80 1,591]

1 hour ago, gcom007 said:

I forgot who I blame for that s***. I just remember the anger and disgust watching Crosby skate towards Bettman. Then I walked away from the screen and pissed and moaned outside. Great night.

You can blame the refs and league for bad calls and not suspending Malkin when the rules clearly state he should have been out for Game 4. star player treatment though...

But, the Wings had a 2-0 lead in that series and blew it. It shouldn't have gone seven. Game 7 was slowww from what I remember too. Both teams being very cautious. The Pens just managed to get one more goal, but one shouldn't have counted since it was clearly offside by feet.

Osgood played his ass off to get so close to that repeat title and the Conn Smythe trophy. I think he kind of gave up after that it was such a letdown. Poor season in 2010 then retired.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

49 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I think he is a safe enough bet to be a top 6 center for a long time. Locking him in max term now can be huge for the cap in a few short years. Of all the long contracts Holland has thrown around these last few years, Larkin is THE one who actually should be getting one. 

 

56 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Agreed. But not sure about an 8 year deal, maybe 4-5. Larkin still isn't fully proven imo

Depends on the cap hit. I'd hand him that $4 mil for 11 years Franzen deal if I could. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree that Mantha has been pretty bad lately, and it's extremely frustrating when you know what he's capable of. I don't agree that younger players should be held to the same standard as veterans (in most cases). However, when it comes to effort / intensity, that's 100% on the player, no matter the age, and lately I feel that's Mantha's biggest issue. I kind of wonder if it's not something else going on with him though. I mean, he's simply not the player he was toward the end of last season / earlier this season. Is he nursing an injury? We also have to remember that this is his sophomore season. People were hard on Larkin last year, and while Mantha is a couple years older than Larkin, he may be going through a similar thing due to the dreaded sophomore slump...

Regardless, Mantha does need to be better on a consistent basis. I think he will be. I still think he's capable of 35 goals, 70 points. Hopefully he puts it all together. We sure as hell need it...

[chaps80 1,591]

This team just needs to shoot more. Too many playmakers on the roster trying to pass it around and do things fancy. This game they got quite a few on net, even from the defence. Gotta keep doing that. If it’s not on net it’s not gonna result in anything, obviously. Even if it’s not pretty, it counts. Dirty goals man! 

[gcom007 1,465]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What I wanna know is what everyone thinks of Mantha at this point... especially after this board pissed and moaned about Franzen on a daily basis.

Franzen built like a powerforward: check
Mantha built like a powerforward: check

Franzen soft as baby s***: check
Mantha soft as baby s***: check

Franzen gifted goalscorer: check
Mantha gifted goalscorer: check

Franzen disappears and becomes invisible at times: check
Mantha disappears and becomes invisible at times: check

Mantha is taller and Canadian, but that is literally almost the only difference between these players. Same exact style of hockey. So where is the Mantha hate? 

 

To early to tell on a team like this. I'd like to see him do better and perhaps we have reason to question, but we've got to give some of these guys more of a chance. I'm not saying I like it or it's somehow just acceptable, but I think we need to understand that when you have a team like this, you don't have a good supporting cast and it can probably become real easy to get into a funk and underachieve. Time will tell, but I'm hardly going to throw the towel in on him yet.

And again, I have nothing against Franzen like some. He was disappointing but I completely get that it was out of his control, and no one should've been surprised that he was a fairly streaky one-dimensional player. It's not really a horrible thing; when he was on, he was on, and he had a knack for being on at the right times when he was healthy. What's to really gripe about?