Official 2018 Off Season *Rebuild* Thread

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Nielsen was a dumb move, not because I don't like the player but because he's overpaid and was given too much term. Helm is also overpaid and was given too much term. Abdelkader got an inflated salary because he was a 20 goal scorer and, for whatever reason, the top brass couldn't see that Datsyuk was the primary reason for his inflated stats. I didn't mind the Daley move as much but do agree that it seemed unnecessary. Much like the road we're seemingly walking down right now with re-signing Green when we really don't need him and he's an injury risk. I could see them keeping Daley after his contract is up since we should, hopefully, at that point have a D consisting of DeKeyser, Hicketts, Hronek, and Cholowski so I would understand the desire to have another veteran who has been through it and is reliable (although we could probably find someone better). Howard's contract was fine for when he signed it... couldn't have known he'd have all the injury issues and inconsistency partly because of them. If Howard stays healthy, he should net us a return at the deadline so it is imperative that we find a reliable backup who can play 40 games (Carter Hutton or Jonathan Bernier are my favorites).

What's going to give me hope with Holland is if at the draft he either moves up to snag Svech or Zadina or if he stays put at 6 and gets us a solid D prospect or Wahlstrom. If he trades back only to pick Kotkaniemi it's going to feel like the same old same old and that's the last thing they need right now.

Edited June 2, 2018 by SwedeLundin77

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I agree with your signings analysis.  I just disagree with the "can't break the bank for 2 good players" argument.  Especially when we break the bank, drop a nuclear warhead on the bank, and the have Godzilla on Steroids stomp the bank for 6 or 7 crappy players.  Abdelkader, Nyquist, and Nielsen are 3rd liners at best on a playoff team.  And Holland has given each of them long term deals for top 6 money.  That's inexcuseable.  

1. We're not a playoff team. 

2. Both Abby's and Nyquist's scoring puts them at a 2nd line pace, not 3rd.

3. Nielsen:

• He's being slotted at the 3C spot and still putting up respectable numbers. If he was slotted higher with better wingers he would put up more points. Not his fault he's being used where he is.
• He wasn't signed to be the 3rd line center. As I've said before, he was brought in to center the 2nd line, we had no 2C at the time. There was no one else in the system then to fill that hole. Even if Larkin could move to center (unknown at the time) he would just be replacing Z essentially. The team had no long term solution at 2C. Free agency was the only option there.
• Plus the streak was still a thing, so there's no way KH was going to leave a hole at 2C, and Nielsen was the best option at the time.
• Was signing him to a 6 year deal ideal? No. But when your team is closing in on a 30 year playoff run, and the talent level is treading water as it is, you may have to give up more than you'd like during contract negotiations to fill a position of need, particularly when ur options are limited. If "the streak" ended the year before, Nielsen wouldn't be in Detroit.
• We can argue the validity of "the streak" all day long. But the Nielsen contract was the right thing to do if that was the strategy.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[SwedeLundin77 460]

23 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

1. We're not a playoff team. 

2. Both Abby's and Nyquist's scoring puts them at a 2nd line pace, not 3rd.

3. Nielsen:

• He's being slotted at the 3C spot and still putting up respectable numbers. If he was slotted higher with better wingers he would put up more points. Not his fault he's being used where he is.
• He wasn't signed to be the 3rd line center. As I've said before, he was brought in to center the 2nd line, we had no 2C at the time. There was no one else in the system then to fill that hole. Even if Larkin could move to center (unknown at the time) he would just be replacing Z essentially. The team had no long term solution at 2C. Free agency was the only option there.
• Plus the streak was still a thing, so there's no way KH was going to leave a hole at 2C, and Nielsen was the best option at the time.
• Was signing him to a 6 year deal ideal? No. But when your team is closing in on a 30 year playoff run, and the talent level is treading water as it is, you may have to give up more than you'd like during contract negotiations to fill a position of need, particularly when ur options are limited. If "the streak" ended the year before, Nielsen wouldn't be in Detroit.
• We can argue the validity of "the streak" all day long. But the Nielsen contract was the right thing to do if that was the strategy.

Abby - 35 points in 75 games is not a 2nd line scoring pace... that's 3rd line at best (and that's where he belongs post-Datsyuk). I'll give you Nyquist belongs on the 2nd line but has been, unfortunately, playing on the 1st line. 

Nielsen - I was where you are in describing the Nielsen signing (at the time). I have gained perspective since, however. That off-season they had Zetterberg (1C), Larkin (2C), Sheahan (3C), Glendening (4C). They also re-signed Helm (3C) and had Athanasiou (3C or 4C). They just needed to give Larkin the shot at 2C... worst case (at the time) they could have easily had Sheahan take the 2C responsibilities. Even Helm could have stepped in. I just think that signing was reactionary. It's a trend Holland has had with not preparing properly for when Rafalski, then Lidstrom left and then the same thing with Datsyuk (which I understand was sudden) but he still should have better prepared for it. It all comes down to not letting the kids play and learn and, yes, make mistakes. It's a problem with the coaching staff right now and why they aren't getting as much as they could out of these players.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

For as much as I get on Kenny, to me, its all about the coaching.  There is ZERO reason (outside of contract length) that Blashill shoudl still be our coach. He is just not a good NHL coach...it happens.

Now he does have sucess with young players, so it would seem that he should be doing better here, maybe there is problem between the coaching and the GM-staff.  Babcock sure seemed to NOT like dealing with Holland, maybe there are powers pushing Blashill in their direction instead of his own...dunno.  But something is not right.

That being said, IMO Abby is not a top 6 player under Blashill, neither is Helm. Nyquist has also been hindered under Blashill, but not because of lack if playing time, maybe its how he is being coached. There is no reason why a player with his skill should not be scoring 30 goals. I am not his biggest fan, but I can respect his talent, and he has shown he can be a pure scorer.

RE: Neilsen, when he was centering Nyquist and Vanek, they were ALL doing very well, Neilsen  needs scoring wingers to get his points, but right now there is no room at C in the top 6, because they refuse to move Z to the wing. Imagine these lines:

Nyquist - Larkin - AA

Z - Neilsen - Mantha

Bertuzzi - Ras - Frk

Abby - Glen - Helm

Or you could swap Nyquist and Mantha.  I know Z says he feels bored out there when he plays winger (she's only 17! 17!,) but hey, if you want Nielsen to put up points, you can't have him on a  line with Helm and Abby.

RE: Green and Daley

It all depends on who we draft this month, or if we make a trade (which would be awesome,) but I don't think we need Green anymore, and starting this TDL Daley can give a list of teams to Holland, so we may be flipping him for some picks. Also Ericsson can submit a list, but not sure many teams would be interested in him. Also with our kids getting close, I think its time to bring a couple up and lets see what they can do. So on D, either draft a D or trade the pick in a package for a young top D, either way, we NEED to have a young D that will become our #1. Which is why I shake my head when people talk about Kenny drafting another young Center. I don't care how well he has climbed the list, if he is not a franchise center, we don't need him, we have plenty of #2-#4 centers now and on the farm. What we don't have is a future #1 D AND a #1 RH'd scoring sniper...or any handed sniping winger. Not unless Mantha REALLY takes off this year and gets even better.

IMO, if we are not drafting one of the D with the #6, then trade AA, Svech and the #30(31) and #35 for a top young available D and a lower 2nd and then draft Wahlstrom. We will still get a great player at #33.

So, do you think that a package of AA, Svech, #30 and #35 would get us Hanifin? or is that more along the lines of Faulk? Either one of them would become our #1 guy.

Edited June 3, 2018 by LeftWinger

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

For as much as I get on Kenny, to me, its all about the coaching.  There is ZERO reason (outside of contract length) that Blashill shoudl still be our coach. He is just not a good NHL coach...it happens.

The team continued to play their asses off for him when they were already out of the playoffs. There is something to be said about that. 

Do I think he has been perfect? Absolutely not. But he has at least earned a shot to see what he could do once Holland can give him a good roster to work with. So really, there isn't much of a reason that he shouldn't be the coach. At least for the rest of his contract. 

[LeftWinger 5,153]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

The team continued to play their asses off for him when they were already out of the playoffs. There is something to be said about that. 

Do I think he has been perfect? Absolutely not. But he has at least earned a shot to see what he could do once Holland can give him a good roster to work with. So really, there isn't much of a reason that he shouldn't be the coach. At least for the rest of his contract. 

I can see your point there. Maybe as fans we are just too impatient. Maybe, like you said, once Holland provides him with a team that is mostly 25 or under, he will do much better.

 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

For as much as I get on Kenny, to me, its all about the coaching.  There is ZERO reason (outside of contract length) that Blashill shoudl still be our coach. He is just not a good NHL coach...it happens.

Now he does have sucess with young players, so it would seem that he should be doing better here, maybe there is problem between the coaching and the GM-staff.  Babcock sure seemed to NOT like dealing with Holland, maybe there are powers pushing Blashill in their direction instead of his own...dunno.  But something is not right.

That being said, IMO Abby is not a top 6 player under Blashill, neither is Helm. Nyquist has also been hindered under Blashill, but not because of lack if playing time, maybe its how he is being coached. There is no reason why a player with his skill should not be scoring 30 goals. I am not his biggest fan, but I can respect his talent, and he has shown he can be a pure scorer.

RE: Neilsen, when he was centering Nyquist and Vanek, they were ALL doing very well, Neilsen  needs scoring wingers to get his points, but right now there is no room at C in the top 6, because they refuse to move Z to the wing. Imagine these lines:

Nyquist - Larkin - AA

Z - Neilsen - Mantha

Bertuzzi - Ras - Frk

Abby - Glen - Helm

Or you could swap Nyquist and Mantha.  I know Z says he feels bored out there when he plays winger (she's only 17! 17!,) but hey, if you want Nielsen to put up points, you can't have him on a  line with Helm and Abby.

RE: Green and Daley

It all depends on who we draft this month, or if we make a trade (which would be awesome,) but I don't think we need Green anymore, and starting this TDL Daley can give a list of teams to Holland, so we may be flipping him for some picks. Also Ericsson can submit a list, but not sure many teams would be interested in him. Also with our kids getting close, I think its time to bring a couple up and lets see what they can do. So on D, either draft a D or trade the pick in a package for a young top D, either way, we NEED to have a young D that will become our #1. Which is why I shake my head when people talk about Kenny drafting another young Center. I don't care how well he has climbed the list, if he is not a franchise center, we don't need him, we have plenty of #2-#4 centers now and on the farm. What we don't have is a future #1 D AND a #1 RH'd scoring sniper...or any handed sniping winger. Not unless Mantha REALLY takes off this year and gets even better.

IMO, if we are not drafting one of the D with the #6, then trade AA, Svech and the #30(31) and #35 for a top young available D and a lower 2nd and then draft Wahlstrom. We will still get a great player at #33.

So, do you think that a package of AA, Svech, #30 and #35 would get us Hanifin? or is that more along the lines of Faulk? Either one of them would become our #1 guy.

Thats a very Steep Price To pay , especially faulk whos 2 Years away i think? We wont do anything with or without him in that time 

Depending on who drops we could be offering something Like AA svechnikov and 2 of dellandrea merkley berggren lauko marchenko beaudin ... big Price 

 

Id target fabbro from the preds,  i think they pick first at 85 if they see someone they really Like that drops we can trade a 30-36 pick and another asset maybe ... preds Have a Ton of d in the organization so they can afford the move 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

 

I know Z says he feels bored out there when he plays winger (she's only 17! 17!,) but hey, if you want Nielsen to put up points, you can't have him on a  line with Helm and Abby.

IMO, if we are not drafting one of the D with the #6, then trade AA, Svech and the #30(31) and #35 for a top young available D and a lower 2nd and then draft Wahlstrom. We will still get a great player at #33.

So, do you think that a package of AA, Svech, #30 and #35 would get us Hanifin? or is that more along the lines of Faulk? Either one of them would become our #1 guy.

It's not very often you hear a song advocating for statutory rape, but it was a different time then. Shame on You Kip Winger.

I don't see any scenario where acquiring Hanifin or Faulk doesn't cost a 1st round pick going back.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[krsmith17 7,191]

On 2018-06-02 at 11:25 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

I would rather see us pay a couple UFAs 10 mil each than see us pay Abdelkader, Nielsen, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Ericsson, Kronwall, Daley, and Howard 35 million.  I'm not opposed to a rebuild.  I'm opposed to not letting it happen because a bunch of crappy overpaid vets are getting the ice time and cap hit.  You act like Holland has NOT overpaid UFA's.  You're just ignoring the fact that they were Red Wings UFA's.  It's easy to do,   and a lot of Holland apologists do it to fool themselves from truly seeing the plague he has spread.

Well, no s***. If we could offload Nielsen and Nyquist, I'd offer Tavares $10.5M for 7 years. If we could offload Ericsson and Daley, I'd offer Carlson $8.5 for 6 years. Except that's not going to happen. I've never acted like Holland has not overpaid UFA's. In fact, I've been very vocal about how I haven't liked many of Holland's UFA signings over the past several years. Again, I'd love to sign Tavares and / or Carlson, but where this team is at right now, I don't think it would be smart to get into any sort of bidding wars for these players. 

[LeftWinger 5,153]

4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

It's not very often you hear a song advocating for statutory rape, but it was a different time then. Shame on You Kip Winger.

I don't see any scenario where acquiring Hanifin or Faulk doesn't cost a 1st round pick going back.

The #30 is a 1st round pick.

Maybe Kip Winger was only 18?

I feel silly, this is the absolute 1st time that I am realizing that @kipwinger possibly named himself after Kip Winger. I never even thought of associating the two.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by LeftWinger

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

The #30 is a 1st round pick.

Maybe Kip Winger was only 18?

I feel silly, this is the absolute 1st time that I am realizing that @kipwinger possibly named himself after Kip Winger. I never even thought of associating the two.

 

[TLGTrico 663]

It seems like Julius Vahatalo and Alexander Kadeykin won't be in the pipeline much longer, but just out of curiosity, how long do we have to get them signed?

[SwedeLundin77 460]

9 minutes ago, TLGTrico said:

It seems like Julius Vahatalo and Alexander Kadeykin won't be in the pipeline much longer, but just out of curiosity, how long do we have to get them signed?

Julius Vahatalo has until June 1 to sign with the Red Wings or become a free agent, with the latter scenario being the most likely.

It doesn’t appear Alexander Kadeykin will be coming over from the KHL anytime soon. He hasn’t exactly set the world on fire there, so he’ll remain on Detroit reserve list until something changes.

[Dabura 12,232]

1 hour ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Julius Vahatalo has until June 1 to sign with the Red Wings or become a free agent, with the latter scenario being the most likely.

It doesn’t appear Alexander Kadeykin will be coming over from the KHL anytime soon. He hasn’t exactly set the world on fire there, so he’ll remain on Detroit reserve list until something changes.

Hakan Andersson is lazy and he sucks.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Hakan Andersson is lazy and he sucks.

Hey, you can't win them all. It's more likely than not that these late picks won't pan out. I wouldn't say Hakan sucks, just that he's human and he isn't always going to find a diamond in the rough like Datsyuk.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Hey, you can't win them all. It's more likely than not that these late picks won't pan out. I wouldn't say Hakan sucks, just that he's human and he isn't always going to find a diamond in the rough like Datsyuk.

Andersson has lost his touch. He hasn't pulled one out of his arse in like 20 years. Holland should sack him.

[kipwinger 8,772]

On 6/1/2018 at 11:44 AM, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

To be fair, Carlson isn't in the same league as those you chose to list. Not until he repeats this year a few more times. I'm not ready to pay him superstar dough.

Over his career Carlson has been just as good as Doughty at both ends of the ice.   He's also better than Erik Karlsson defensively,  though significantly worse offensively (but so is Doughty).  He is just not as popular as those guys,  which may explain why you think he's worse despite his obvious ability. 

[SwedeLundin77 460]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Andersson has lost his touch. He hasn't pulled one out of his arse in like 20 years. Holland should sack him.

And how do we know which selections he had and did not have input on?

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

31 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Over his career Carlson has been just as good as Doughty at both ends of the ice.   He's also better than Erik Karlsson defensively,  though significantly worse offensively (but so is Doughty).  He is just not as popular as those guys,  which may explain why you think he's worse despite his obvious ability. 

I disagree about Carlson being good as Doughty. I concede he's better than Karlsson defensively, but that's not exactly hard to do as that's never been Karlsson's strong point. I'm not going on popularity, though I see why you might think so, I watch as many Capitals games as I can because I'm a big Ovie fan. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

And how do we know which selections he had and did not have input on?

Hakan Andersson's scouting territory is Scandinavia, so just about any Swedish or Finnish draftee is a Hakan pick.

Nikolai Vakurov covers Eastern Europe and Antonin Routa covers Central Europe. Aside from Jiri Fischer, the Wings don't have any other active scouts in Europe, let alone Scandinavia.

[Dabura 12,232]

2 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Hey, you can't win them all. It's more likely than not that these late picks won't pan out. I wouldn't say Hakan sucks, just that he's human and he isn't always going to find a diamond in the rough like Datsyuk.

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Andersson has lost his touch. He hasn't pulled one out of his arse in like 20 years. Holland should sack him.

Should've hired Hossa instead of Andersson. It's a mistake Kenny will never live down.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Should've hired Hossa instead of Andersson. It's a mistake Kenny will never live down.

 

"Hello, my name is Hakan, and I will be your fishing guide today"

"The only thing I need guiding to is Swedish hockey players haha [nervously whips out and points to a Polaroid of Borje Salming]"

"........."

"You're hired"

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hakan Andersson's scouting territory is Scandinavia, so just about any Swedish or Finnish draftee is a Hakan pick.

Nikolai Vakurov covers Eastern Europe and Antonin Routa covers Central Europe. Aside from Jiri Fischer, the Wings don't have any other active scouts in Europe, let alone Scandinavia.

So he basically has nothing to do.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So he basically has nothing to do.

I believe Central Europe includes Czech Rep and Slovakia in this instance. Routa is Czech.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Anyone else pay attention to the Griffins promoting Ben Simon to head coach this morning? Can't see this posted anywhere else on the boards.