2020 Offseason

[kipwinger 8,529]

4 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I guess I'd lean towards Stutzle and Rossi...? Maybe? Put it this way: It's close. I'd be having long, loooooong talks with my scouts for days on end.

I'll be much more sour if the Sens get Lafreniere and Stutzle/Rossi. I might join the "F**** this s***, burn it to the ground" camp if that s*** happens.

Only way I want Lafreniere in that scenario is if I'm Los Angeles and I'm STACKED at center already. Otherwise this is a no brainer.

[Dabura 12,207]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Only way I want Lafreniere in that scenario is if I'm Los Angeles and I'm STACKED at center already. Otherwise this is a no brainer.

Nah, not a no-brainer. We don't know that either of these guys will be a full-time centerman at the NHL level. That's why I say I'd be having endless convos with my scouts.

Don't get me wrong tho -- you don't have to convince me that Stutzle and Rossi are fantastic prospects. It's killing me that we don't have another early 1st to work with and I completely understand the logic in trading down from 1st overall.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Dabura

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Whether or not he projects as a bust or beneath hes pedigree is almost beside the point. Both are dissapointments and we can cash in on him now while he still has some hype. In 3 or 4 years when its clear hes only a medicore top6er his value will have dropped.

You want substance? Ok. After less than a half seasons worth of games. Zadina is at a .5 PPG pace as a 20 year old rookie. That's a small sample size. And it only translates to a 40-45 point season. Low end 2nd liner. If you think he's peaked at 20, then yeah, trade him. I personally think he's got a lot more potential. I don't think he plateaus at a Hudler/Nyquist level tho.

As a comparison, I give you fellow Czech Jakub Vrana. He's roughly the same size as Zadina. Was drafted 13th overall in 2014. Is currently 24 and in his 4th season. Vrana made the NHL at 20 just like Zadina. In his first full season, he only scored 27 points in 73 games. Then 47 points in 82 games and was on pace to finally break 60 points this season. And he was playing on a line with Backstrom which probably padded his numbers a bit.

Zadina was already on pace as a rookie to match Vranas 3rd year numbers while not having anyone as good as Backstrom as his center. And while it took Vrana 4 seasons to break 60 points, I think Zadina will break 60 points by age 23.

This is the trajectory I see for Zadina.

[kipwinger 8,529]

23 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Nah, not a no-brainer. We don't know that either of these guys will be a full-time centerman at the NHL level. That's why I say I'd be having endless convos with my scouts.

Don't get me wrong tho -- you don't have to convince me that Stutzle and Rossi are fantastic prospects. It's killing me that we don't have another early 1st to work with and I completely understand the logic in trading down from 1st overall.

That's odd, all year long you've mocked me for suggesting that one should trade down from first overall.  What changed? 

[LeftWinger 4,963]

22 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I completely understand the logic in trading down from 1st overall

Which has been my point for a long time now.  Sure, Lafreniere can be a no-brainer, selection, but you have to listen to phone calls.  I am sure (as in TSN's mock up) if Montreal got the #2 and we got #1, they'd be pounding Yzerman's door down with offer(s) to flip flop picks! All hypothetical, but if they offered the trade I mentioned a few times before (Domi, Caufield, the #2 and maybe another pick/prospect) I may be inclined to make a deal like that, especially if I'm eyeing a C at the draft.  You could have an entire line for the price of Laffi...

Domi - Stutzle - Caufield

plus maybe another pick/prospect.

[Dabura 12,207]

I think my biggest gripe with The Plan is that even if Holland/Yzerman truly wanted to go nuclear and load up on 1sts and other teams' top prospects...I feel like it's been a long-ass time since we last had a core group of players who could actually get us there. Which is sort of the whole problem, right? The Wings have struggled enormously to produce both 1) elite cornerstone players and 2) "merely sexy" players like your Duchenes and your Turrises and your Hoffmans and your Pageaus. The natural result has been not enough winning (no elite players) + no GMs throwing premium futures at us (no sexy late-20s trade bait).

Even now, you don't see a ton of people talking about our top players. Doesn't necessarily mean we couldn't get a huge return for, say, Mantha, but I guess my point is that I'm not sold on this notion that Yzerman not trading our young guys = missing the boat. I'm sure there will be big trades in the future, when we can honestly say that we have too many good centermen/wingers/defensemen/goalies. We're not there yet. ...Though, it's possible we're only a few months away, depending on how the draft plays out.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Dabura

[Dabura 12,207]

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That's odd, all year long you've mocked me for suggesting that one should trade down from first overall.  What changed? 

Yes, yes, poor persecuted kip. :'(

I've always been open to trading down from 1OA, in theory. My hangup has always been the return. If I'm trading Lafreniere, I need to be getting something that's jizz-in-your-pants amazing. Stutzle + Rossi is, at the very least, in the ballpark. I actually like each of those players more than I like Byfield, so, for me, that might as well be the 2nd and 3rd overall picks.

[kipwinger 8,529]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Yes, yes, poor persecuted kip. :'(

I've always been open to trading down from 1OA, in theory. My hangup has always been the return. If I'm trading Lafreniere, I need to be getting something that's jizz-in-your-pants amazing. Stutzle + Rossi is, at the very least, in the ballpark. I actually like each of those players more than I like Byfield, so, for me, that might as well be the 2nd and 3rd overall picks.

I don't feel persecuted.  I feel like I've been right, and now all you dummies are catching up to the fact that Lafreniere isn't as good as you thought, and other players are better than you thought.  Glad you're finally joining the club of big brained thinkers.  It'll take you another 18 months to finally catch up to the stuff I'm saying now.

[LeftWinger 4,963]

oh, ya, I am not just swapping picks and picking up an extra 2nd rounder. Hell no! If I am trading the #1 I am getting a turbo boost on my rebuild, especially if it's an inner-divisional rival, and triple ESPECIALLY if it's Montreal!

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I don't feel persecuted.  I feel like I've been right, and now all you dummies are catching up to the fact that Lafreniere isn't as good as you thought, and other players are better than you thought.  Glad you're finally joining the club of big brained thinkers.  It'll take you another 18 months to finally catch up to the stuff I'm saying now.

Lafreniere > Mike Ricci > Gretzky

2 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

oh, ya, I am not just swapping picks and picking up an extra 2nd rounder. Hell no! If I am trading the #1 I am getting a turbo boost on my rebuild, especially if it's an inner-divisional rival, and triple ESPECIALLY if it's Montreal!

Right.

If you firmly believe Lafreniere isn't all that special and you own the 1OA pick, you should be looking to trade down. Personally, I feel Lafreniere is good enough that I'd need someone to blow me away with a trade proposal. I'd need convincing.

[kipwinger 8,529]

6 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Lafreniere > Mike Ricci > Gretzky

Make jokes all you want.  You did everything but scoff the last two years when I suggested trading the 1st overall.  Now you've "always been open to it".  The only person more critical than you was KRsmith, and I'm sure he's still holding out hope that Lafreniere is "borderline generational".  Lol. 

Anyway, the point is that you're a flip flopper and your takes are as boring and uncreative as you (presumably) are.

Edited April 9, 2020 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, kipwinger said:

Make jokes all you want.  You did everything but scoff the last two years when I suggested trading the 1st overall.  Now you've "always been open to it".  The only person less more critical than you was KRsmith, and I'm sure he's still holding out hope that Lafreniere is "borderline generational".  Lol. 

Anyway, the point is that you're a flip flopper and your takes are as boring and uncreative as you (presumably) are.

I feel for you, man. Truly. I can't imagine what it must be like having some ******* with a DBZ avatar living rent-free in your head for years.

[kipwinger 8,529]

4 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I feel for you, man. Truly. I can't imagine what it must be like having some ******* with a DBZ avatar living rent-free in your head for years.

You keep me up.  I can't sleep.  I see a shrink. 

 

Also, you don't know s*** about hockey.

[Dabura 12,207]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Also, you don't know s*** about hockey.

[Dabura 12,207]

Anyway I've gotta run. Stay safe, everyone. (Even you, kip.) Peace.

[F.Michael 4,590]

7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The plot thickens.

I'd feel a poop-ton better if Grand Master Y swapped the 1st pick for the  2nd, 3rd, etc, AND another draft pick/prospect/etc, AND then draft the 'Kraut Wunderkind'.

Drafting Stutzle 1st outta the gate has me thinking we'll be the butt of all jokes.

If he's really that convinced that Stutzle has the tools to be a legit top flight centerman in the NHL - then so be it...Would be nice if he could pry away Ottawa's top 2 picks (especially if both land in the top 5).

[F.Michael 4,590]

7 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I mean, it would be in keeping with Yzerman's tendency to f*** up asset management for sure.  If you like Stutzle more than Lafreniere and you have the 1st pick you'd better trade back to #3 and land some additional assets.

I guess I should've read further along this thread...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You want substance? Ok. After less than a half seasons worth of games. Zadina is at a .5 PPG pace as a 20 year old rookie. That's a small sample size. And it only translates to a 40-45 point season. Low end 2nd liner. If you think he's peaked at 20, then yeah, trade him. I personally think he's got a lot more potential. I don't think he plateaus at a Hudler/Nyquist level tho.

As a comparison, I give you fellow Czech Jakub Vrana. He's roughly the same size as Zadina. Was drafted 13th overall in 2014. Is currently 24 and in his 4th season. Vrana made the NHL at 20 just like Zadina. In his first full season, he only scored 27 points in 73 games. Then 47 points in 82 games and was on pace to finally break 60 points this season. And he was playing on a line with Backstrom which probably padded his numbers a bit.

Zadina was already on pace as a rookie to match Vranas 3rd year numbers while not having anyone as good as Backstrom as his center. And while it took Vrana 4 seasons to break 60 points, I think Zadina will break 60 points by age 23.

This is the trajectory I see for Zadina.

Substance? This isn't substance.

PP1: Same old 'hope' argument I just disparaged

PP2 & 3: Confused hyping of an entirely different player not named Zadina

 

Do you have an opinion on Zadinas actual performance? Like play style? Strengths and weaknesses?

I've watched 2 years of him now and I feel like I have decent understanding of this player. Curious to know what your take is.

Edited April 10, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[mackel 681]

16 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You want substance? Ok. After less than a half seasons worth of games. Zadina is at a .5 PPG pace as a 20 year old rookie. That's a small sample size. And it only translates to a 40-45 point season. Low end 2nd liner. If you think he's peaked at 20, then yeah, trade him. I personally think he's got a lot more potential. I don't think he plateaus at a Hudler/Nyquist level tho.

As a comparison, I give you fellow Czech Jakub Vrana. He's roughly the same size as Zadina. Was drafted 13th overall in 2014. Is currently 24 and in his 4th season. Vrana made the NHL at 20 just like Zadina. In his first full season, he only scored 27 points in 73 games. Then 47 points in 82 games and was on pace to finally break 60 points this season. And he was playing on a line with Backstrom which probably padded his numbers a bit.

Zadina was already on pace as a rookie to match Vranas 3rd year numbers while not having anyone as good as Backstrom as his center. And while it took Vrana 4 seasons to break 60 points, I think Zadina will break 60 points by age 23.

This is the trajectory I see for Zadina.

You're going to be very disappointed brah!

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Substance? This isn't substance.

PP1: Same old 'hope' argument I just disparaged

PP2 & 3: Confused hyping of an entirely different player not named Zadina

 

Do you have an opinion on Zadinas actual performance? Like play style? Strengths and weaknesses?

I've watched 2 years of him now and I feel like I have decent understanding of this player. Curious to know what your take is.

I literally gave you a comparable in terms of how I see Zadina panning out. Being as that Zadina's future hasn't happened yet, giving an example of another's player's career that has taken shape seems like a reasonable model to show this.

This is literally how projections work. I don't understand your confusion.

My take on Zadina is that his development is slower than expected, but I see nothing that tells me he won't still develop into a top line forward. His defense needs some work (not at all unusual for young, offensive forwards at the NHL level). He would benefit by having a better center, and is not at the level where he is going to generate a lot of points on his own. He also will probably get a lot of his points on the PP, and will be more dependant on that then I would like. 

My overall take, as I said in my last post, is that he will continue to increase his point total each season, and will become a 60 point player within 3 years. This is a better track than what you see, but is not at all unrealistic.

[mackel 681]

20 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I literally gave you a comparable in terms of how I see Zadina panning out. Being as that Zadina's future hasn't happened yet, giving an example of another's player's career that has taken shape seems like a reasonable model to show this.

This is literally how projections work. I don't understand your confusion.

My take on Zadina is that his development is slower than expected, but I see nothing that tells me he won't still develop into a top line forward. His defense needs some work (not at all unusual for young, offensive forwards at the NHL level). He would benefit by having a better center, and is not at the level where he is going to generate a lot of points on his own. He also will probably get a lot of his points on the PP, and will be more dependant on that then I would like. 

My overall take, as I said in my last post, is that he will continue to increase his point total each season, and will become a 60 point player within 3 years. This is a better track than what you see, but is not at all unrealistic.

Zadina = Fellow Czech Patrik Stefan https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=30952

 

Busty cold Zadina

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

Zadina = Fellow Czech Patrik Stefan https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=30952

 

Busty cold Zadina

I thought you wanted to be kept out of this.

[kipwinger 8,529]

7 hours ago, mackel said:

Zadina = Fellow Czech Patrik Stefan https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=30952

 

Busty cold Zadina

Dude, there's more to being a hockey player than how good you are at hockey.  I mean, how good of a guy is Zadina?  Did you even think of that?  What if he's got a really super great attitude?

[Dabura 12,207]

Wait so are we ironically hating on Zadina or unironically hating on Zadina? I need to know if I should be praying for him at night or stabbing pins in a voodoo doll.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Wait so are we ironically hating on Zadina or unironically hating on Zadina? I need to know if I should be praying for him at night or stabbing pins in a voodoo doll.

I think both.