• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

krsmith17

Red Wings players / prospects on loan

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

If Veleno tops out as a Draper caliber player, he wouldn't be considered a bust, but he would definitely be considered a disappointment.

To me, Veleno still has a 2C ceiling and 3C floor. He is still only 20 years old playing against men, and playing well despite not putting up monster points... *yet*. He had another nice assist in today's game, and he's looking more and more comfortable.

 

I think we all have high hopes for Veleno. Maybe to high, as I just don't see the development as higher than a bottom 6 center.

But as you noted, he's only 20. so hopefully he can pick it all up.

As for Zedina, I think he's a legit top 6 winger. I want to see Zedina, Nametsnikov and Fabbri together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Berggren, who is also 20 and playing in a men’s league, is torching the SHL. Keep in mind he was picked after Veleno and has missed the better part of two years with injuries. That’s the difference between a guy who has natural offensive ability and one who doesn’t. In every way Veleno is further along in his development and yet he can’t out pace Berggren because he simply doesn’t have the puck skills to produce anything other than middling offensive numbers. 
 

He’s currently getting outpaced by Seider (A 19 year old defenseman) as well. And it’s only going to get harder to score when he gets to the NHL. I think we are looking at 40 point, two-way, 3rd line center here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imagine thinking all players develop at the same rate...

Berggren is playing in his 4th SHL season, on a very good Skelleftea team. Veleno is playing his first season in a foreign country, on the league worst Malmo team.

Yes, Berggren is torching the league, but Veleno hasn't been bad by any stretch. He still ranks top 10 in points per game for all U20 players (Berggren is #1, Raymond and Seider are also top 10).

I have a feeling there's a lack of watching the games and more scoreboard watching, and assuming because the points haven't been there as much as a few other guys, that "so many plays just die on his stick", which couldn't be further from reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Imagine thinking all players develop at the same rate...

Berggren is playing in his 4th SHL season, on a very good Skelleftea team. Veleno is playing his first season in a foreign country, on the league worst Malmo team.

Yes, Berggren is torching the league, but Veleno hasn't been bad by any stretch. He still ranks top 10 in points per game for all U20 players (Berggren is #1, Raymond and Seider are also top 10).

I have a feeling there's a lack of watching the games and more scoreboard watching, and assuming because the points haven't been there as much as a few other guys, that "so many plays just die on his stick", which couldn't be further from reality.

Some of us here don't have the luxury of watching overseas games. We have to view highlights and posts from reading forums to glean information and form opinions.

As for Veleno I really don't care which line he is on. I'm more concerned about compete level. 

If he play as a 50-60 pt 2nd line, Great.

If he play as a 40-45 pt 3rd line, good.

If he playes as a 35-40 pt 4ht line, ok.

I just want to see 60min of hockey by the whole team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, WRusco said:

Some of us here don't have the luxury of watching overseas games. We have to view highlights and posts from reading forums to glean information and form opinions.

I'm not knocking anyone that doesn't watch games. I've only watched 5 of Veleno's 11 games, and even 2 or 3 of those was a lot of flicking back and forth between games. I'm knocking people that claim to watch that clearly haven't. Or maybe they have watched 6 of Veleno's 11 games, and it just so happens that he was s*** in those 6, and really good in the 5 that I watched...

28 minutes ago, WRusco said:

As for Veleno I really don't care which line he is on. I'm more concerned about compete level. 

Veleno definitely has a high compete level.

29 minutes ago, WRusco said:

If he play as a 50-60 pt 2nd line, Great.

If he play as a 40-45 pt 3rd line, good.

If he playes as a 35-40 pt 4ht line, ok.

I still think Veleno will be 50-60 point 2nd line center through his prime years, which I agree would be great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since they were drafted, Beggren has played 87 games at all levels. 58 in the SHL against men and 29 against juniors. He has also dealt with several severe injuries. Veleno has played 135 games, 65 in "men's leagues" (SHL and AHL) , and 70 against juniors. He has dealt with no serious injuries. If anything Veleno is MORE developed than Berggren.

Yet he scores less. Berggren's ppg against men is .51. Veleno's is .45 in the SHL and .43 in the AHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Since they were drafted, Beggren has played 87 games at all levels. 58 in the SHL against men and 29 against juniors. He has also dealt with several severe injuries. Veleno has played 135 games, 65 in "men's leagues" (SHL and AHL) , and 70 against juniors. He has dealt with no serious injuries. If anything Veleno is MORE developed than Berggren.

Yet he scores less. Berggren's ppg against men is .51. Veleno's is .45 in the SHL and .43 in the AHL.

What is your point? None of this proves anything, except that Berggren has been more productive in the SHL. Do you think that means that Berggren will be a better NHLer? Do you think it means that Veleno tops out as a 3rd line center in the NHL? It doesn't...

More developed? What does this even mean? Every single player develops at different rates, regardless of number of games played or number of injuries.

The same people that doubted Mantha are now doing the same with Veleno. Veleno will be fine, and he will be a big part of this team going forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have thought it was clear from the totality of my posts. I think Veleno will be a 3rd line, two-way center, who doesn't produce offense consistently because of his limited puck skills. Why do I think that? Because the NHL is a harder league to score in than the SHL or AHL and Veleno didn't produce very well in those leagues either. In fact, he's producing less well than other, less developed, Red Wings prospects including Berggren, Seider, and Raymond.

Edit: You realize that Mantha's .67 ppg in the NHL is EXACTLY the same as his AHL production (.67) right? It's not like he got better. He's the same scorer. So (using the logic from your example) we should expect Veleno, who was an inconsistent third line center in the AHL to pull a Mantha and...be the exact same thing in the NHL?

Cool, glad we agree.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I would have thought it was clear from the totality of my posts. I think Veleno will be a 3rd line, two-way center, who doesn't produce offense consistently because of his limited puck skills. 

You've already proven with your previous posts that you've been basing your opinion purely on stats, and not from watching the games. Now saying that he has "limited puck skills", makes me question whether or not you've ever watched Veleno play... Veleno's skill with the puck on his stick is one of his strengths, not at all a weakness. If you're going to point to a weakness, it would probably be his positioning in the defensive zone. Something that can be fixed.

8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Why do I think that? Because the NHL is a harder league to score in than the SHL or AHL and Veleno didn't produce very well in those leagues either. In fact, he's producing less well than other, less developed, Red Wings prospects including Berggren, Seider, and Raymond.

So you do think that all players develop at the same rate? Got it.

Veleno's point totals have been a little disappointing. No disagreement there. However, he's still been playing well from what I've seen. Berggren has been unreal, and is massively surpassing everyone's expectations. That doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to the NHL though...

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You realize that Mantha's .67 ppg in the NHL is EXACTLY the same as his AHL production (.67) right? It's not like he got better. He's the same scorer. So (using the logic from your example) we should expect Veleno, who was an inconsistent third line center in the AHL to pull a Mantha and...be the exact same thing in the NHL?

I didn't bring Mantha up as a direct player comparison. I brought him up because so many people (including you) gave up on him before he ever had a chance to prove himself. The same thing you're now doing with Veleno. Mantha is a borderline elite, top line NHL winger (when healthy). I don't think Veleno will ever have that sort of impact at the NHL level. They're completely different players.

The player I've compared Veleno to in the past, and I think it's a very good one, is Phillip Danault. They're exactly the same size, left-handed centers, from the same province, drafted in the same range, and play a very similar style of game. Both are very strong two-way centers, that can play in all situations. Their biggest strengths are skating, play-making ability, hockey IQ and work ethic. The biggest difference between the two is that Veleno has been much better at every single level up until this point in Veleno's young career. Veleno was much better in the QMAAA, QMJHL, AHL, and World tournaments. All of which he played at a younger age than Danault.

Danault was always an average point producer, better known for his two-way game. Sound familiar? Now he's one of the better 2nd line centers in the NHL. But yet, according to you, that sort of ceiling just isn't in the cards for Veleno...

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Cool, glad we agree.

We definitely don't agree. Surprise, surprise. But if you want to write Veleno off as a 3rd line center this early in his development, go right ahead. I'm going to assume he still has plenty of room to grow, and hope he hits his ultimate ceiling, which is an elite two-way 2C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it´s a bit unfair to judge Veleno that early, he played just 11 games on a different kontinent,scoring 5 points so far which is ok to me considering the fact that he was struggling early on last season and after finding his game slowly in the AHL corona hit us and now he has to adjust to a new country, culture, language, team and ice sheet. When I watched him play in sweden (3games) he did not look like someone with limited puck skills. He is playing on the league´s worst team being relied on in all situations, playing every other shift in the games last minutes and to me leaves a good impression. He is making plays, creative, not easy to play against. Give him time, I think he can be reliable, responsible and contributing 2nd line center in a few years time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ely s said:

I think it´s a bit unfair to judge Veleno that early, he played just 11 games on a different kontinent,scoring 5 points so far which is ok to me considering the fact that he was struggling early on last season and after finding his game slowly in the AHL corona hit us and now he has to adjust to a new country, culture, language, team and ice sheet. When I watched him play in sweden (3games) he did not look like someone with limited puck skills. He is playing on the league´s worst team being relied on in all situations, playing every other shift in the games last minutes and to me leaves a good impression. He is making plays, creative, not easy to play against. Give him time, I think he can be reliable, responsible and contributing 2nd line center in a few years time.

Awood40 video. He has lot's of Red Wings stuff and does a pretty good job.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I just don't see 2nd line center, yet. He still hase time to improve, but I really like his compete level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will be huge for Zadina to have played 20 or so games before training camp. Coming to NA in game shape with confidence can give him a real boost and we might see more of that at the NHL level.

Apart from Veleno all our players on loan perform quite well pointwise, Ras,Hronek, Zadina, Seider, Brome all at 0.9+ ppg, then add Berggren with 20 points in 18 games and Raymond, who is uptrending after a slow start. That´s a lot of players with a headstart. We have to wait and see if it´s an advantage or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now