Johnson, Killorn, and a 1st?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Yzerman is one of only a couple GM's that actually has the cap space, AND an owner (presumably) willing to spend to the cap, to take on BOTH Johnson and Killorn. He holds all the power. BriseBois is at his mercy. That's why, in my opinion, a late 1st round pick, that may or may not pan out, is not close to enough to help out a divisional rival.

The points you mentioned are exactly why SY doesn't hold all the power. There are other teams who could make such a deal too. And if SY is expecting a bigger return because of division, couldn't Brisebois just make a better deal for himself with a team outside the division? This is also the kind of deal that Seattle would be all over next summer..

[kipwinger 7,718]

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Is a late 1st and 2nd enough for you to justify that much salary/cap hit for the next 3-4 years on players past their primes? Asking for a friend.

Entirely possible that Johnson would not even be on the Wings next season if he's left exposed in the expansion draft.

I absolutely do it for a late first and second. Worst case scenario you draft a billion times in the first two rounds. Best case scenario you package the 30th (for example) pick with the 5th or 6th overall that the Wings may end up with, and move up a few spots to nab the player you really want at 2nd or 3rd overall.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

By my count x5 teams can currently take both players, and another x3 that could take both players by utilizing demotions and/or waivers, for a total of x8 teams that could take both.

Then there are x8 teams who could take only Johnson, with another x2 who could make said moves to make room for Johnson.

Then there are x9 teams who could take only Killorn, with another x2 who could make said moves to work him in.

So roughly there are about x11 teams who could potentially be in on deals involving these players to relieve Tampa's cap space. Or in other words 1/3 of the league.

In conclusion: Yzerman does not hold all the power. BriseBois is not at his mercy. And you live in a fantasy land.

And none of this even begins to consider salary retention or players going back.

Sure, "1/3 of the league" have the cap space to take on those contracts, but OVER 1/3 of the league are looking to shed bad contracts... Taking both of those contracts for a late 1st round pick would be bad cap management in my opinion. There are / will be other, better ways to utilize the cap space. Don't blow it all in one deal. 

Also, I'd say your numbers are a little off. Three other teams, besides the Red Wings have the cap space, AND an owner willing to spend to the salary cap. And that's assuming two things, none of Nashville, Los Angeles, or New Jersey are working under an internal cap (doubtful), and all three teams would want to take on two big contracts, long term (again, doubtful). I'd say worst case scenario, Yzerman is up against one other team, willing to take on both Johnson and Killorn. 

3 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Johnson is a good player. You just don't love his contract. Despite being regulated to the 3rd line for Tampa he was still one of their most productive players per minute of ice time. 5th among forwards. His contract isn't the greatest, but we can more than afford. And we will still be able to afford it in 4 years when it ends, due to the amount of bad contracts we have coming off the books and the shear amount of ELC's that will be on our roster at that time. I doubt it limits our building potential at all.

If I can get more great assets for that... darn tootin' pilgrim I will

Johnson is an average player propped up by an elite team. Watch him go to a bad team and fall off a cliff.

We can "afford" a lot of bad contracts. That doesn't mean we should offer to take them for subpar returns.

A late 1st round pick is far from a "great asset". Veleno was a late 1st round pick, and by most accounts, an absolute steal at that position, but yet most think he maxes out as a 3rd line center. So we're taking on TWO huge contracts, for one swing, and just going by the odds, likely a miss. Bad deal.

Again, add in another high pick and / or high end prospect, and I'd listen. For a late 1st, keep the cap space, and call any number of the other teams, also under a cap crunch, take on only one contract, get a higher 1st round pick, or a 2nd round pick and a prospect, and probably even take on less term.

3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

The points you mentioned are exactly why SY doesn't hold all the power. There are other teams who could make such a deal too. And if SY is expecting a bigger return because of division, couldn't Brisebois just make a better deal for himself with a team outside the division? This is also the kind of deal that Seattle would be all over next summer..

This is assuming there are other teams that even want to take on two huge contracts, in a flat cap, where most owners are likely pinching every penny...

Maybe there's a reason we've only heard Detroit linked to this particular trade. Maybe he's the only GM (with an owner) willing to take on both players / contracts.

[AtlantaHotWings 663]

Another take...

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-should-consider-salary-dump-trade/

and saw this on a google search  it sounded like it had happened

 

After a bit of back and forth, a deal eventually took shape as follows: Tampa Bay trades Johnson, Killorn, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2022 second-round pick, and goaltending prospect Hugo Alnefelt to Detroit for a 2021 fourth-round pick.3 hours ago

guessing it was pulled from one of articles but @ first glance I was WHAATTT

 

[LeftWinger 4,751]

5 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Yzerman working on the Johnson deal.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PuckReportNHL/status/1337558108143489024

why would we trade away the LTIR? That can only help us in acquiring more assets... It's basically an extra $6M on top of the $9.5M. I don't like that idea.

[WRusco 43]

5 hours ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Another take...

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-should-consider-salary-dump-trade/

and saw this on a google search  it sounded like it had happened

 

After a bit of back and forth, a deal eventually took shape as follows: Tampa Bay trades Johnson, Killorn, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2022 second-round pick, and goaltending prospect Hugo Alnefelt to Detroit for a 2021 fourth-round pick.3 hours ago

guessing it was pulled from one of articles but @ first glance I was WHAATTT

 

Why trade for Johnson or Killorn, Why not wait until Tampa can't sign Cirelli, Cernak, or Sergachev and just grab up the that gives us the most help.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, WRusco said:

Why trade for Johnson or Killorn, Why not wait until Tampa can't sign Cirelli, Cernak, or Sergachev and just grab up the that gives us the most help.

Sergachev is already signed. He'd be the only one I'd be willing to overpay for. I'd have mild interest in one of the other two, depending on the cost.

I'm completely okay with taking on a bad contract for assets, but it has to be worth it. Johnson for four years at $5M, for a late 1st round pick isn't close to worth it in my opinion... 

Carolina got a mid 1st round pick last year for taking on Marleau for one year at $6M, and that was before Covid times... The price should be MUCH higher than that for a similar cap hit, over 4x the term, in this current climate...

[WRusco 43]

27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sergachev is already signed. He'd be the only one I'd be willing to overpay for. I'd have mild interest in one of the other two, depending on the cost.

I'm completely okay with taking on a bad contract for assets, but it has to be worth it. Johnson for four years at $5M, for a late 1st round pick isn't close to worth it in my opinion... 

Carolina got a mid 1st round pick last year for taking on Marleau for one year at $6M, and that was before Covid times... The price should be MUCH higher than that for a similar cap hit, over 4x the term, in this current climate...

Didn't know about Sergechev. 

I think I would be interested in Cirelli as he is a center, which we could use.

I only brought this up because the rumors are ALWAYS Johnson AND Killorn. Those proposals are always WAY in favor of Tampa Bay. A late 1st is a 2th pick or later and a late 2nd is a what, a 57 or later. Just not enough for 1 or the other, and for Detroit a ROYAL screw job for both at a 1st, a 2nd and a prospect.. I'm just not familiar with Tampa's prospect's to make a judgement on their value.

I would rather say thanks, but no thanks to the whole thing.

[kipwinger 7,718]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:06 PM, krsmith17 said:

Love the passive aggression...

So now it's a 1st, 2nd and a goalie prospect, and you might make the deal?

I agree. That certainly gets the conversation started. I still don't think I'd do it though. Give me one of Johnson or Killorn, and a 1st and 2nd or a high end prospect and I'd consider it.

I'm confused, in the Timashov thread you said you would want a 1st and 2nd/prospect for Johnson AND a 2nd for Killorn. But here you're saying you WOULDN'T do a 1st, 2nd, and top prospect for both. Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

[WRusco 43]

On 12/12/2020 at 12:58 PM, Wait&Sneed said:

Yzerman working on the Johnson deal.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PuckReportNHL/status/1337558108143489024

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm confused, in the Timashov thread you said you would want a 1st and 2nd/prospect for Johnson AND a 2nd for Killorn. But here you're saying you WOULDN'T do a 1st, 2nd, and top prospect for both. Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

It depends on the year of the pick(s) / caliber of the prospect(s) coming back. The original "rumor" was Johnson, Killorn and the Lightning 2021 1st round pick. That would be a terrible trade for Yzerman in my opinion. Change that pick to 2022 and it's a bit better. Add a 2nd round pick and / or prospect (again depending on the prospect), and it starts the conversation. I'm not sure exactly what it would take for me to pull the trigger, but the 2021 1st alone, doesn't come close.

[kipwinger 7,718]

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It depends on the year of the pick(s) / caliber of the prospect(s) coming back. The original "rumor" was Johnson, Killorn and the Lightning 2021 1st round pick. That would be a terrible trade for Yzerman in my opinion. Change that pick to 2022 and it's a bit better. Add a 2nd round pick and / or prospect (again depending on the prospect), and it starts the conversation. I'm not sure exactly what it would take for me to pull the trigger, but the 2021 1st alone, doesn't come close.

You've made that much clear. But again, here you're saying you wouldn't do it for a 2021 1st,  2022 2nd, and prospect. But elsewhere you said you'd do it for something similar to that. When everyone else said "yes" to the deal above you said "no" and then multiple days later said you'd do basically the exact same deal in another thread. So what changed?

Edited December 14, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You've made that much clear. But again, here you're saying you wouldn't do it for a 2021 1st,  2022 2nd, and prospect. But elsewhere you said you'd do it for something similar to that. When everyone else said "yes" to the deal above you said "no" and then multiple days later said you'd do basically the exact same deal in another thread. So what changed?

What are you talking about? The only deal I said I definitely would not do, is the dumb rumor from nhltraderumors that started this whole debate. I'd want at least 2-3 high end assets in a trade taking both Johnson and Killorn. A 1st alone doesn't come close. What's so hard to understand about that?

[kipwinger 7,718]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:06 PM, krsmith17 said:

Love the passive aggression...

So now it's a 1st, 2nd and a goalie prospect, and you might make the deal?

I agree. That certainly gets the conversation started. I still don't think I'd do it though. Give me one of Johnson or Killorn, and a 1st and 2nd or a high end prospect and I'd consider it.

^^^^^^^^ What's hard to understand is that you said that you wouldn't do Johnson AND Killorn for a 1st, 2nd, and prospect on 12/9/20 in this thread (as quoted above). Back then (5 days ago) you said your wanted Johnson OR Killorn for a 1st AND 2nd. But over in the Timashov thread you said you would take Johnson AND Killorn for a 1st, 2nd/prospect, and a 2nd; which is the same thing that you said you wouldn't do in the post above.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

^^^^^^^^ What's hard to understand is that you said that you wouldn't do Johnson AND Killorn for a 1st, 2nd, and prospect on 12/9/20 in this thread (as quoted above). Back then (5 days ago) you said your wanted Johnson OR Killorn for a 1st AND 2nd. But over in the Timashov thread you said you would take Johnson AND Killorn for a 1st, 2nd/prospect, and a 2nd; which is the same thing that you said you wouldn't do in the post above.

In the above quote, I was basically saying that I'd rather just one of Johnson OR Killorn, not both. As mentioned prior to that quote, adding both would add a lot of cap for the next 3-4 years. Something I don't want, and Yzerman has said specifically he doesn't want.

The 1st, 2nd/prospect (again depending on the year of the picks and caliber of prospect) is around what I would accept as a reasonable return for Johnson. Anything short of that, Tampa can keep him.

[kipwinger 7,718]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

In the above quote, I was basically saying that I'd rather just one of Johnson OR Killorn, not both. As mentioned prior to that quote, adding both would add a lot of cap for the next 3-4 years. Something I don't want, and Yzerman has said specifically he doesn't want.

The 1st, 2nd/prospect (again depending on the year of the picks and caliber of prospect) is around what I would accept as a reasonable return for Johnson. Anything short of that, Tampa can keep him.

Okay. But then in the Timashov thread you said " I would not take Johnson AND Killorn for just a 1st round pick. I'd want a 1st, plus another pick and / or prospect for Johnson, and at least a 2nd for Killorn" which suggests you WOULD take both provided the Wings got a 1st, 2nd, and prospect. It's confusing because that's exact what you said you wouldn't take for both on 12/9/20 (as quoted above). So you can see how someone might be confused right?

So, what would it take for you to trade for both Killorn and Johnson?

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Okay. But then in the Timashov thread you said " I would not take Johnson AND Killorn for just a 1st round pick. I'd want a 1st, plus another pick and / or prospect for Johnson, and at least a 2nd for Killorn" which suggests you WOULD take both provided the Wings got a 1st, 2nd, and prospect. It's confusing because that's exact what you said you wouldn't take for both on 12/9/20 (as quoted above). So you can see how someone might be confused right?

So, what would it take for you to trade for both Killorn and Johnson?

Sure, but it depends on how you read it. You could take it as that's what I'd want for each of them in one big trade, or (how I meant it), that's what I would want for each of them in two different trade scenarios.

I've said countless times leading up to that post, I'd rather not take on both. I also doubt Yzerman takes on both. I think if there is a trade between Detroit and Tampa, it will be for one of Johnson or Killorn. Both should come with assets, but Johnson obviously a lot more.

[kipwinger 7,718]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, but it depends on how you read it. You could take it as that's what I'd want for each of them in one big trade, or (how I meant it), that's what I would want for each of them in two different trade scenarios.

I've said countless times leading up to that post, I'd rather not take on both. I also doubt Yzerman takes on both. I think if there is a trade between Detroit and Tampa, it will be for one of Johnson or Killorn. Both should come with assets, but Johnson obviously a lot more.

You'd rather not take both or you wouldn't take both? And if you would, what would it take? There must be SOME price that you'd take both players for. And if Yzerman has Tampa over a barrel, as you've repeatedly said, then Brisebois should basically have to pay it right? So why wouldn't you take both?

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You'd rather not take both or you wouldn't take both? And if you would, what would it take? There must be SOME price that you'd take both players for. And if Yzerman has Tampa over a barrel, as you've repeatedly said, then Brisebois should basically have to pay it right? So why wouldn't you take both?

I'd rather not, because of cap constraints, but of course I would. There is no player I wouldn't trade or trade for, if the price is right. The price would have to be significantly higher than the rumor that started this whole debate though. What that would be, again, no idea. I'd target their 2022 1st round pick, rather than their 2021 1st round pick. And I'd also want a couple other high end assets (picks / prospects).

Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'd like to see some sort of three way trade involving both Johnson, Killorn, and another team. We eat salary on one, take the other one, and get assets from both teams. I don't know, just spit balling...

[WRusco 43]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd rather not, because of cap constraints, but of course I would. There is no player I wouldn't trade or trade for, if the price is right. The price would have to be significantly higher than the rumor that started this whole debate though. What that would be, again, no idea. I'd target their 2022 1st round pick, rather than their 2021 1st round pick. And I'd also want a couple other high end assets (picks / prospects).

Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'd like to see some sort of three way trade involving both Johnson, Killorn, and another team. We eat salary on one, take the other one, and get assets from both teams. I don't know, just spit balling...

And there lies the gist of the whole problem. What is fair compensation?

Tampa's picks will most likely be 25th or lower in each round. 25th or lower 1st rd and 57 or lower 2nd rd. And any prospects need to be top 9 F/C or top 4 D.

And why not split the players into 2 separate trades? We continually discuss Johnson and Killorn together as inseperable. 

Johnson alone shoud bring a 1st, 2nd and a prospect.

Killorn shoud bring a 1st and a second, or 2 seconds and a prospect.

[kipwinger 7,718]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd rather not, because of cap constraints, but of course I would. There is no player I wouldn't trade or trade for, if the price is right. The price would have to be significantly higher than the rumor that started this whole debate though. What that would be, again, no idea. I'd target their 2022 1st round pick, rather than their 2021 1st round pick. And I'd also want a couple other high end assets (picks / prospects).

Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'd like to see some sort of three way trade involving both Johnson, Killorn, and another team. We eat salary on one, take the other one, and get assets from both teams. I don't know, just spit balling...

Okay, and if Yzerman has Tampa by the balls (as you've repeatedly suggested) then Yzerman can ask for the moon and Brisebois will have to pay up no?

[krsmith17 7,191]

34 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Okay, and if Yzerman has Tampa by the balls (as you've repeatedly suggested) then Yzerman can ask for the moon and Brisebois will have to pay up no?

Tampa need to move players. Detroit doesn't need to add any players. Yes, Yzerman is in the driver's seat...

BriseBois doesn't have to make a trade with Yzerman, but if he wants to sign his RFA's, he does have to make some trades. Detroit are one of the few trade partners these teams trying to shed cap space have. If BriseBois doesn't like Yzerman's ask, cool. Move on to the next team. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

25 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

But that's not your assertion...

Your assertion is that Yzerman has BrzBalls by the ballzzzzz mannnnn

He doesn't. It's ludicrous and patently false. Tampa can explore options with Yzerman and several other teams. Sell Killorn and Johnson as a package, or by themselves.

Teams all the time run into obstacles where they can only sell a player to a few teams. Never does that result in the selling team gifting assets for those teams to take them unless they're pure useless salary dumps. This applies to the current scenario. Bisbwah is not over a barrel with Yzerman pulling his pigtails. There are several potential suitors. Tampa will likely find a slightly reduced return for Killorn and will have to get creative with Johnson.

You're dumb as s***, and not worth the time, but here I go once again. Never did I say Yzerman had BriseBois by the balls. I said Yzerman is in the driver's seat. Which he is, and yes, there is a difference. Yzerman doesn't have to make a trade. BriseBois does. Yzerman shouldn't take anything less than what he thinks is fair value. A late 1st round pick isn't close for taking on those two contracts. BriseBois can make a trade with one or two other teams. Yzerman can take on a salary dump from a different team. It's really not that difficult to understand...

[Akakabuto 1,512]

2 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Anyone with an adult opinion wanna talk Johnson and Killorn?

Hello

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Johnson, 1st, alnefelt/finley for kotkansalo

no interest in both ,not tryin to be good enough to finish 8th last just yet ...  get a top d this draft and hopefully we finish 5-6th in 2022 and finally become those assholes who luck out in the lottery (justly so) and get shane wright and take off in 2022-2023