BLASHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[kipwinger 8,527]

19 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Keywords: right now

2017-18: 63 pt pace
2018-19: 79 pt pace
2019-20: 61 pt pace
2020-21: 43 pt pace
2021-22: 82 pt pace

He's production is up and down and all around season by season.

Looks like a pretty consistent 60 plus points a year to me. So far in his career he’s had one down year. So what?

[ely s 457]

2 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Over the last few pages you've been attempting to impress upon me that Sam Gagner - a PK winger who makes 850K a year - is somehow an essential cog to the team that we absolutely had to re-sign. But the BS is in MY head...

your typical twisting of facts, I never said we had to re-sign Gagner, I said he´s better suited than Svech for a bottom six role

2 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Blashill was billed as a coach with a skill set in player development - he gud wit kidz - good for a rebuilding team. 6 years later I seriously question that evaluation. Like any coach, he has a list of players that have succeeded developing in his system, and a list of players who consistently underperformed under his guidance. The later list is much much too long for him to be considered a coach whose is skilled in player development. In fact, I may go further and say he is clearly below average in this quality.

So then what is Jeff Blashill? A completely average to sub-average coach with no discernible style or strengths? There's no reason to keep this around. Placeholder status should be done at the end of this year... For the sake of this team and the new found success we're having with Raymond and Seider (and for the sake of those specific players). He's one of the longest tenured coaches in the league and there's literally nothing I can point to as a great success he's achieved for this team. I think his most amazing feat is not being fired already.... 

again, you will not find a page where I say Blash is a good coach, what I say is that to me it´s not Blash´s fault that Svech is just a replaceable player, as was Sheahan or Cholowski. All Holland first round picks that didn´t work out here and obviously don´t work out somewhere else. Celebrating Svech for a goal and 5 secondary assists on the 2nd line on a better team than ours does not mean Blash messed up his development. It just shows he needs good players around him to grab a point here and there and we need players who make a difference and not bottom 6 players.

[bIueadams 776]

11 minutes ago, ely s said:

your typical twisting of facts, I never said we had to re-sign Gagner, I said he´s better suited than Svech for a bottom six role

Svech is playing a bottom 6 role on a better team than us.

If what you meant to say here is: Gagner is better suited for a PK role than Svech, then I agree with you. He is. But now we're going in circles, because I've already explained to you... We have other players who can play the PK besides Gagner. Gagner is not some must have PK defensive dynamo like Glendening was. He doesn't play center. And he doesn't take faceoffs. He's a warm body veteran winger who happens to be usable on the PK.

There's absolutely no reason Svech can play on the Jets 3rd line, but can't play on ours because Gagner exists.

 

[kipwinger 8,527]

Still at a loss for why Svechnikov is being used as a measuring stick here? What does he have to do with anything at all?

[bIueadams 776]

19 minutes ago, ely s said:

again, you will not find a page where I say Blash is a good coach, what I say is that to me it´s not Blash´s fault that Svech is just a replaceable player, as was Sheahan or Cholowski. All Holland first round picks that didn´t work out here and obviously don´t work out somewhere else. Celebrating Svech for a goal and 5 secondary assists on the 2nd line on a better team than ours does not mean Blash messed up his development. It just shows he needs good players around him to grab a point here and there and we need players who make a difference and not bottom 6 players.

There's a marked difference between Sheahan + Cholowski, and Svechnikov.

Sheahan and Cholowski got tons of chances to play good minutes and on good assignments with this team. Cholowski never got a thing going, and Sheahan did get it going for a while and then regressed badly at an early age.

Svechnikov NEVER got nearly the same opportunities from Blash. And that is showing now that he's with the Jets.

I'm trying to push some narrative that Svech is an amazing offensive producer. He's depth scoring right now. But I am pushing that Jeff handled him as a prospect atrociously. And I would much rather have Svech as a young depth scorer on this team than I would a washed up vet like Gagner.

27 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Looks like a pretty consistent 60 plus points a year to me. So far in his career he’s had one down year. So what?

60 to 80 to 60 to 40 to 80 is dramatic to me. Do we have a ppg 1C? Or do we have a 60 pt 2C that sometimes only scores 40 or 50 pts? He certainly hasn't been a pillar of consistency that we can lean on like Z and Dats were.

[kipwinger 8,527]

3 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

60 to 80 to 60 to 40 to 80 is dramatic to me. Do we have a ppg 1C? Or do we have a 60 pt 2C that sometimes only scores 40 or 50 pts? He certainly hasn't been a pillar of consistency that we can lean on like Z and Dats were.

So he ranges from being an above average player to a considerably above average player and you think this is an indictment of Blashill? Nice try.

[bIueadams 776]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Still at a loss for why Svechnikov is being used as a measuring stick here? What does he have to do with anything at all?

Probably recency. I cited several players that regressed under Blashill and this is just the one we've decided to play in the weeds about.

[ely s 457]

6 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

I'm trying to push some narrative that Svech is an amazing offensive producer.

It´s difficult to not see this, but still he´s not an amazing producer.

[bIueadams 776]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

So he ranges from being an above average player to a considerably above average player and you think this is an indictment of Blashill? Nice try.

Not totally. But it's Blash's job to get consistency from his players, so at some level the responsibility does fall on him. Couple that with the lack of consistency of several other impact players, and I think it starts to paint a picture of man who cannot get consistent reliable performances from a lot of his guys.

[kipwinger 8,527]

Just now, bIueadams said:

Probably recency. I cited several players that regressed under Blashill and this is just the one we've decided to play in the weeds about.

Neat. The NHL isn't a developmental league and it's not Jeff Blashill's job to make sure prospects develop. It's the GM and the player development staff's job. Jeff Blashill is no more responsible for Svech's development than he is for all they players who have dramatically outperformed expectations since he's been the coach.

[bIueadams 776]

3 minutes ago, ely s said:

It´s difficult to not see this, but still he´s not an amazing producer.

I mean this is a thread about Blashill. If you need to go reread and refresh yourself on why we're talking about Svech in the first place please do so.

 

[kipwinger 8,527]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

Not totally. But it's Blash's job to get consistency from his players, so at some level the responsibility does fall on him. Couple that with the lack of consistency of several other impact players, and I think it starts to paint a picture of man who cannot get consistent reliable performances from a lot of his guys.

Ok, I concede. Blashill bears some responsibility for Dylan Larkin being a very good player. You win.

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Neat. The NHL isn't a developmental league and it's not Jeff Blashill's job to make sure prospects develop. It's the GM and the player development staff's job. Jeff Blashill is no more responsible for Svech's development than he is for all they players who have dramatically outperformed expectations since he's been the coach.

What's your list of players "who have dramatically outperformed expectations" look like?

I disagree that development of young players isn't his job. It is when he's adding 18-23 year old players to his roster. He talks in interviews about how he had to work with players like Cholowski to get them to shoot more and things like this. It's why he paired Larkin with Zberg to start that young mans career. And I think his use of Svechnikov was completely disheartening from the players perspective and mine.

[ely s 457]

4 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

What's your list of players "who have dramatically outperformed expectations" look like?

Bert

Blash was his coach in GR and DET and he helped him become a heck of a player.

[kipwinger 8,527]

16 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

1. What's your list of players "who have dramatically outperformed expectations" look like?

2. I disagree that development of young players isn't his job. It is when he's adding 18-23 year old players to his roster.

3. He talks in interviews about how he had to work with players like Cholowski to get them to shoot more and things like this.

4. It's why he paired Larkin with Zberg to start that young mans career.

5. And I think his use of Svechnikov was completely disheartening from the players perspective and mine.

Okay, I'll play. But I have to deal with it in parts.

1. Larkin, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Nick Jensen, Hronek, and Athanasiou (off the top of my head). Partial credit for Tatar and Nyquist who he coached in the AHL and NHL. And quarter credit for Raymond and Seider, both of whom are outperforming expectations but it's a little too early to tell.

2. He doesn't "add" anyone to his roster. That's the GM's job.

3. That's called "coaching", which is his job. That's different than development, which denotes playing the right player in the right league against the right competition to ensure their long term success.

4. As I've said before, Larkin is very good. If you're giving Blashill credit for him being so then you're contradicting your own point.

5. Svech was only on the team because the roster was expanded because of the "taxi squad" and he was out of waiver. He only played because half the team was sick and/or injured. I'm sure Blashill would have preferred not to play him at all. He sucks. He won't even be in the NHL in another year (see: Frk, Martin).

Edited November 19, 2021 by kipwinger

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Svech:  Average player. Not particularly good at anything. Can play wing up and down the lineup. Just like Fabbri, Ras, Namesnikov, Veleno, Erne. But unlike the first 4, he can't play center or take faceoffs to my knowledge. Completely redundant and replaceable player.

Rowney, Smith: Big bodies brought in to throw their weight around. Not Svech's role.

Stephens, Gagner: RH bottom 6 forwards, who can play wing or center and take faceoffs. Gagner provides veteran leadership. Svech is neither RH, nor a veteran.

SY doesnt just see positions. He has certain roles he wants on his roster and he brings in guys to fill them. Svech filled a redundant role, not one of need. That is why other players were signed instead of him, regardless of how GOOD you think they are.

[bIueadams 776]

31 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Okay, I'll play. But I have to deal with it in parts.

1. Larkin, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Nick Jensen, Hronek, and Athanasiou (off the top of my head). Partial credit for Tatar and Nyquist who he coached in the AHL and NHL. And quarter credit for Raymond and Seider, both of whom are outperforming expectations but it's a little too early to tell.

2. He doesn't "add" anyone to his roster. That's the GM's job.

3. That's called "coaching", which is his job. That's different than development, which denotes playing the right player in the right league against the right competition to ensure their long term success.

4. As I've said before, Larkin is very good. If you're giving Blashill credit for him being so then you're contradicting your own point.

5. Svech was only on the team because the roster was expanded because of the "taxi squad" and he was out of waiver. He only played because half the team was sick and/or injured. I'm sure Blashill would have preferred not to play him at all. He sucks. He won't even be in the NHL in another year (see: Frk, Martin).

1.

Larkin: I don't like his inconsistency. I think he would have done better in a different coaches system the past 6 years.
Bertuzzi: I think Bertuzzi has a rouge self confidence that would have flourished anywhere, but I'll give you this one.
Mantha: Performed and then regressed. Blash could never motivate him or squeeze all the juice from him. I count this is a negative.
Jensen: This is a true example of someone I think Blash coached well. I never expected Jensen to become as good and reliable as he has.
Hronek: I'll give you this one. He seems back on track this season after a hiccup.
Athanasiou: Same story as Mantha.
Tatar/Nyquist: Sure partial credit
Raymond/Seider: Sure at least some initial credit

4/6

But I'll add:

Mrazek: Completely regressed under Blash
Sheahan: Initial success and then completely regressed under Blash
Svechnikov: Never got used by Blash and now he's found a solid foundation elsewhere
I don't care much for how things are going with Smith, Ras, and Zadina either.

 

2. Not gonna argue my off the cuff phrasing with you. He's got young men on his roster that are still developing and his job plays a large role in that coaching the lockeroom and giving out assignments..

3. Same as above.

4. I'm not suggesting Larkin isn't a good top6 NHL center. Blash gets some credit for that. I also think Larkin's production is problematically inconsistent, which Blash also gets some credit for.

5. Agree with the first part. Still would have preferred him on the roster this season over Rowney or Gagner if Blash would actually commit to playing him.

 

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Svech:  Average player. Not particularly good at anything. Can play wing up and down the lineup. Just like Fabbri, Ras, Namesnikov, Veleno, Erne. But unlike the first 4, he can't play center or take faceoffs to my knowledge. Completely redundant and replaceable player.

Rowney, Smith: Big bodies brought in to throw their weight around. Not Svech's role.

Stephens, Gagner: RH bottom 6 forwards, who can play wing or center and take faceoffs. Gagner provides veteran leadership. Svech is neither RH, nor a veteran.

SY doesnt just see positions. He has certain roles he wants on his roster and he brings in guys to fill them. Svech filled a redundant role, not one of need. That is why other players were signed instead of him, regardless of how GOOD you think they are.

Svech: former first rounder never given much of any chance to prove himself.

Gagner: Still not a center. Still not taking faceoffs. And everyone over the age of 30 is a critical veteran leader, I forgot that one.

Edited November 19, 2021 by bIueadams

[bIueadams 776]

I'm not gonna list every stat. You can look them up if you wanna check. But here we are for 5v5 play:

Svech is blocking more shots per 60 than Rowney. He's stripping more pucks per 60 than Rowney. He's drawing more penalties per 60 than Rowney. Is rushing the puck up ice more than Rowney per 60. He's generating more shots on net per 60 than Rowney. Scoring more per 60 than Rowney. Is playing more in general than Rowney. And has better fancy stats than Rowney. But Rowney hits more per 60 and can barely manage to win a single faceoff.... Good choice on Rowney Blash and Yzerman.

Svech is hitting more per 60 than Gagner. He's stripping more pucks per 60 than Gagner. He's drawing more penalties per 60 than Gagner. He's rushing the puck up ice more than Gagner per 60. He has a higher shooting percentage than Gagner. He's producing more points per60 than Gagner. He's playing more in general than Gagner. And his fancy stats are better than Gagner's. But Gagner blocks slightly more shots and shoots into the goalies chest more often... good choice on Gagner Blash and Yzerman, award him more PP time.

Svech has more rush attempts per 60 than Zadina. He's stripping the puck per 60 more than Zadina. He has a higher shooting percentage than Zadina. He's producing more points per 60 than Zadina. He's producing more goals per 60 than Zadina. He's get on average more 5v5 ice time than Zadina.

And Svech is top5 among forwards on his team in CF%, GF%, and xGF%

But I can see why Blash neglected to play him

[kipwinger 8,527]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

1.

Larkin: I don't like his inconsistency. I think he would have done better in a different coaches system the past 6 years.
Bertuzzi: I think Bertuzzi has a rouge self confidence that would have flourished anywhere, but I'll give you this one.
Mantha: Performed and then regressed. Blash could never motivate him or squeeze all the juice from him. I count this is a negative.
Jensen: This is a true example of someone I think Blash coached well. I never expected Jensen to become as good and reliable as he has.
Hronek: I'll give you this one. He seems back on track this season after a hiccup.
Athanasiou: Same story as Mantha.
Tatar/Nyquist: Sure partial credit
Raymond/Seider: Sure at least some initial credit

4/6

But I'll add:

Mrazek: Completely regressed under Blash
Sheahan: Initial success and then completely regressed under Blash
Svechnikov: Never got used by Blash and now he's found a solid foundation elsewhere
I don't care much for how things are going with Smith, Ras, and Zadina either.

 

2. Not gonna argue my off the cuff phrasing with you. He's got young men on his roster that are still developing and his job plays a large role in that coaching the lockeroom and giving out assignments..

3. Same as above.

4. I'm not suggesting Larkin isn't a good top6 NHL center. Blash gets some credit for that. I also think Larkin's production is problematically inconsistent, which Blash also gets some credit for.

5. Agree with the first part. Still would have preferred him on the roster this season over Rowney or Gagner if Blash would actually commit to playing him.

 

6/6: You asked who exceeded expectations. Mantha and Athansiou both did. Mantha is either the 2nd or 3rd best 20th overall pick in the last 20 years. Definitely behind Brent Burns and maybe Travis Zajac. Athanasiou was/is a regular, contributing, top 9 NHL forward despite being drafted in the 4th round. Neither are superstars, but both of them (like Jensen) turned out just about as good as one could expect given where they were drafted.

So again, if Blash bears responsibility for guys like Mrazek, Sheahan, and Svech not panning out then he MORE than makes up for it by getting more out of the guys I mentioned than could reasonably be expected.

OR (and this is my position) he really doesn't have much to do with guys Svech's failures or Jensen's successes. The first lost almost two full years of developmental time to serious injuries and probably still isn't NHL caliber, and the second plied his trade in the AHL until he was 26 before he was finally NHL ready and only then did he get called up and used in a depth role he could handle.

One final thought: The Red Wings drafting and player development was absolutely abysmal under Holland. The ONLY top six forwards drafted and developed between Datsyuk/Zetterberg and Larkin/Mantha were Tatar and Nyquist (maybe Filppula or Hudler if you're being REALLY generous). So from 1999 to 2013 they drafted 2 top six talents. The ONLY top four defenseman they drafted and developed between Kronwall and Hronek? None. Not one.  From 2000 to 2016 they developed ZERO top four defensemen. This was a systemic problem that had a lot to do with A) bad draft position, B) piss poor decisions by the GM on draft day, and C) a terrible development program and almost nothing to do with Blashill.

Edited November 19, 2021 by kipwinger

[bIueadams 776]

15 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

6/6: You asked who exceeded expectations. Mantha and Athansiou both did. Mantha is either the 2nd or 3rd best 20th overall pick in the last 20 years. Definitely behind Brent Burns and maybe Travis Zajac. Athanasiou was/is a regular, contributing, top 9 NHL forward despite being drafted in the 4th round. Neither are superstars, but both of them (like Jensen) turned out just about as good as one could expect given where they were drafted.

So again, if Blash bears responsibility for guys like Mrazek, Sheahan, and Svech not panning out then he MORE than makes up for it by getting more out of the guys I mentioned than could reasonably be expected.

OR (and this is my position) he really doesn't have much to do with guys Svech's failures or Jensen's successes. The first lost almost two full years of developmental time to serious injuries and probably still isn't NHL caliber, and the second plied his trade in the AHL until he was 26 before he was finally NHL ready and only then did he get called up and used in a depth role he could handle.

One final thought: The Red Wings drafting and player development was absolutely abysmal under Holland. The ONLY top six forwards drafted and developed between Datsyuk/Zetterberg and Larkin/Mantha were Tatar and Nyquist (maybe Filppula or Hudler if you're being REALLY generous). So from 1999 to 2013 they drafted 2 top six talents. The ONLY top four defenseman they drafted and developed between Kronwall and Hronek? None. Not one.  From 2000 to 2016 they developed ZERO top four defensemen. This was a systemic problem that had a lot to do with A) bad draft position, B) piss poor decisions by the GM on draft day, and C) a terrible development program and almost nothing to do with Blashill.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on Mantha and AA. I don't count those as success stories for us. Two draft wins that could never put it together under Blashill. And that's why they're not on this team.

Mantha taking stretches of games off. Jimmy D stepping up to call him a disappointment. Athanasiou basically unwilling to commit to the system and the other myriad of inconsistencies.

The players aren't blameless at all. But it's Jeff's responsibility to motivate and manage the attitudes of those guys, and he just never could. Therefore, each a loss on the coaching staffs record.

[kipwinger 8,527]

36 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on Mantha and AA. I don't count those as success stories for us. Two draft wins that could never put it together under Blashill. And that's why they're not on this team.

Mantha taking stretches of games off. Jimmy D stepping up to call him a disappointment. Athanasiou basically unwilling to commit to the system and the other myriad of inconsistencies.

The players aren't blameless at all. But it's Jeff's responsibility to motivate and manage the attitudes of those guys, and he just never could. Therefore, each a loss on the coaching staffs record.

You’re moving the goalposts. First you said Blash doesn’t develop players. Those guys both developed beyond almost anyone else drafted where they were. And they did so under Blash. Now you’re saying they don’t count because they “didn’t put it together” and they aren’t on the team. They both put it together just fine as I’ve already stated (more than anyone else drafted where they were).

 They aren’t on the team because neither gives a s*** and couldn’t be bothered to compete. This despite Blash repeatedly telling them exactly how to improve both privately and publicly. He also gave and took away ice time, and even scratched them when it got serious. He can’t MAKE them give a s***. What’s he supposed to do, play for them? And both are the EXACT SAME players elsewhere. Kinda like it’s not Blashill’s fault.

Edited November 19, 2021 by kipwinger

[bIueadams 776]

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You’re moving the goalposts. First you said Blash doesn’t develop players. Those guys both developed beyond almost anyone else drafted where they were. And they did so under Blash. Now you’re saying they don’t count because they “didn’t put it together” and they aren’t on the team. They both put it together just fine as I’ve already stated (more than anyone else drafted where they were).

Nah, you're just late to the party. I cited a myriad of reasons of why I think Blashill sucks as a HC in my first post in this thread. Including him being unable to manage the attitudes of Mantha and Athanasiou and other impact players. This is not mutually exclusive with his other shortcomings.

6 hours ago, kipwinger said:

 They aren’t on the team because neither gives a s*** and couldn’t be bothered to compete. This despite Blash repeatedly telling them exactly how to improve both privately and publicly. He also gave and took away ice time, and even scratched them when it got serious. He can’t MAKE them give a s***. What’s he supposed to do, play for them? And both are the EXACT SAME players elsewhere. Kinda like it’s not Blashill’s fault.

Coach's job is to get his players to play and to squeeze every drop out of them. That didn't happen. Some of that failure falls on Jeff.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Nah, you're just late to the party. I cited a myriad of reasons of why I think Blashill sucks as a HC in my first post in this thread. Including him being unable to manage the attitudes of Mantha and Athanasiou and other impact players. This is not mutually exclusive with his other shortcomings.

Coach's job is to get his players to play and to squeeze every drop out of them. That didn't happen. Some of that failure falls on Jeff.

I agree with you on Athanasiou.  There is talent in that player that is not super easy to find.  A good coach would bring it out to stay and let him do his thing in the regular season so long as he poured his guts out in the playoffs.  Blashill wanted him playing playoff hockey 82 games a season on a team with almost no talent.  Cant blame him too much for not buying in to that.  We needed to lose to get talent.  Why lose the unfun way?  These guys arent stupid.  They can "come together" when there are enough of them.  Larkin, AA, and Mantha "coming together" only meant losing 3-0 instead of 7-3.  If Athanasiou would have swung his stick at the boards and goal posts every game like Larkin did 2 years ago, would that have endeared people to him?  Blash put a set of rules on AA when the team was in the pits.  That was a mistake.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

8 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Nah, you're just late to the party. I cited a myriad of reasons of why I think Blashill sucks as a HC in my first post in this thread. Including him being unable to manage the attitudes of Mantha and Athanasiou and other impact players. This is not mutually exclusive with his other shortcomings.

Coach's job is to get his players to play and to squeeze every drop out of them. That didn't happen. Some of that failure falls on Jeff.

So basically, if I'm lazy at my job, don't want to work, and have a bad attitude, its my manager's fault. Got it.