New New Prospects Thread

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I like how the one thing you focused on in my post was the joke.

It was accurate. He's tied for the lead in empty net assists.

[marcaractac 3,963]

57 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

It was accurate. He's tied for the lead in empty net assists.

While true, the overall point of that post was to point out that both Ras and Zadina have some work to do to become more reliable, consistent NHLers, and that they both deserve flack where as Zadina gets almost all of it on his own. 

Having said that, it's also too early to give up on either of them. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

Just now, marcaractac said:

While true, the overall point of that post was to point out that both Ras and Zadina have some work to do to become more reliable, consistent NHLers, and that they both deserve flack where as Zadina gets almost all of it on his own. 

Having said that, it's also too early to give up on either of them. 

Wings that deserve more of Zadina's flack:

Rasmussen: big gangly goof child this year

and

Hronek: dumb as f*** and totally overrated

 

 

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

23 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Wings that deserve more of Zadina's flack:

Rasmussen: big gangly goof child this year

and

Hronek: dumb as f*** and totally overrated

 

 

 

Ehhh... Hronek is a totally fine second pair dman. He was awful to start the season, but has been much better since. Hard to complain with him being a second round draft pick and all. 

Zadina and Ras both have not done what they were drafted to do: score. Zadina was supposed to be the skilled scorer, Ras was supposed to be the monster net front presence who got all the garbage goals. 

Zadina developed a nice defensive game and is showing more playmaking skill than scoring. His shot needs work at the NHL level. 

Ras is a good defensive center on his on nights, and a disaster on his off nights. 

We'd like more from both, but both have plenty of time to figure s*** out. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Ehhh... Hronek is a totally fine second pair dman. He was awful to start the season, but has been much better since. Hard to complain with him being a second round draft pick and all. 

Zadina and Ras both have not done what they were drafted to do: score. Zadina was supposed to be the skilled scorer, Ras was supposed to be the monster net front presence who got all the garbage goals. 

Zadina developed a nice defensive game and is showing more playmaking skill than scoring. His shot needs work at the NHL level. 

Ras is a good defensive center on his on nights, and a disaster on his off nights. 

We'd like more from both, but both have plenty of time to figure s*** out. 

Zadina just turned 22.  He should have 300 goals by now.  We have to dump this bust.

[kipwinger 8,771]

54 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zadina just turned 22.  He should have 300 goals by now.  We have to dump this bust.

I'll just be happy for him when he gets his 20th career NHL goal. It's been a long slog through three seasons, but I'm confident he'll hit the big 2-0 sometime after the All-Star break.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I'll just be happy for him when he gets his 20th career NHL goal. It's been a long slog through three seasons, but I'm confident he'll hit the big 2-0 sometime after the All-Star break.

Oh come on. 

You make it sound like he's on the verge of playing 240 games or something. He's played 108. That's 1.3 actual seasons. 

 

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Oh come on. 

You make it sound like he's on the verge of playing 240 games or something. He's played 108. That's 1.3 actual seasons. 

 

At his current scoring rate he's have about 40 goals after 240 games, so that's something to look forward to.

The good news is that I've watched the last 20 games and can definitely see an improvement in his shooting. He's getting way better. Definitely not trying to fire low percentage shots through the goalie's logo anymore. So I expect that shooting percentage to take off at any time.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

22 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

At his current scoring rate he's have about 40 goals after 240 games, so that's something to look forward to.

The good news is that I've watched the last 20 games and can definitely see an improvement in his shooting. He's getting way better. Definitely not trying to fire low percentage shots through the goalie's logo anymore. So I expect that shooting percentage to take off at any time.

He was on pace for 23 goals his rookie season. I honestly don't know what TF happened to the kid between now and then. He's actually looks like a better player now. But the counting stats are depressing. 

[kipwinger 8,771]

50 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

He was on pace for 23 goals his rookie season. I honestly don't know what TF happened to the kid between now and then. He's actually looks like a better player now. But the counting stats are depressing. 

Both are true. I just listened to an episode of the Winged Wheel Pod (they LOVE Zadina) and they had this analytics guy (Micah Blake McCurdy from Hockey Viz) talking about all things fancy stats. As they tend to do they immediately started discussing how Zadina was this really good player and was just snake bitten (they say he has the yips) and asked if he agreed. He did and didn't. According to this guy, Zadina's defensive and possession metrics are good and he definitely tilts the ice in Detroit's favor. But he's not an unlucky offensive player (doesn't have the zips!). He's just a really bad shooter who can't finish on the chances he creates. His shot selection is really bad, and even when he's in prime scoring position his finishing is really bad relative to this rest of the league. According to this guy, Zadina's rookie season is more an outlier than the norm. This tracks with what other analytics folks conclude about Zadina.

A couple takeaways:

1. Zadina's not too young, or too underdeveloped, or to unlucky, or whatever. He's just not very good right now.

2. The thing he's not good at (shooting) is one of the easier things to improve at, so there's still room for some improvement in his finishing (though probably not his shot selection). This should be encouraging to a point, but even with a pretty dramatic increase in his shooting percentage we're really not looking at anything better than a Tatar level winger here. Not bad, but definitely not what you're hoping for with a top ten pick.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Both are true. I just listened to an episode of the Winged Wheel Pod (they LOVE Zadina) and they had this analytics guy (Micah Blake McCurdy from Hockey Viz) talking about all things fancy stats. As they tend to do they immediately started discussing how Zadina was this really good player and was just snake bitten (they say he has the yips) and asked if he agreed. He did and didn't. According to this guy, Zadina's defensive and possession metrics are good and he definitely tilts the ice in Detroit's favor. But he's not an unlucky offensive player (doesn't have the zips!). He's just a really bad shooter who can't finish on the chances he creates. His shot selection is really bad, and even when he's in prime scoring position his finishing is really bad relative to this rest of the league. According to this guy, Zadina's rookie season is more an outlier than the norm. This tracks with what other analytics folks conclude about Zadina.

A couple takeaways:

1. Zadina's not too young, or too underdeveloped, or to unlucky, or whatever. He's just not very good right now.

2. The thing he's not good at (shooting) is one of the easier things to improve at, so there's still room for some improvement in his finishing (though probably not his shot selection). This should be encouraging to a point, but even with a pretty dramatic increase in his shooting percentage we're really not looking at anything better than a Tatar level winger here. Not bad, but definitely not what you're hoping for with a top ten pick.

All makes sense. Other than the bolded though. 

My takeaway from all of this is simple:

A player can be good player without scoring goals. 

Zadina can't be a good player unless he scores goals. 

[kipwinger 8,771]

9 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

All makes sense. Other than the bolded though. 

My takeaway from all of this is simple:

A player can be good player without scoring goals. 

Zadina can't be a good player unless he scores goals. 

I'm probably not being precise enough with my language. A player can definitely be good without scoring. But within the context of the "Is Zadina a Bust" debate, it's probably not good asset management if a rebuilding team uses a top ten pick (passing on guys like Quinn Hughes) for a defensively responsible winger with finishing issues (see what I did there?).

I'm not the authority, but I do think the value of the pick you used on a guy vs. the type of player he turns into makes a difference. For example, if we used two high end picks to trade up for Sebastian Cossa and he turns into a Jonathan Bernier type goalie I'm not going to say it was a solid pick just because he's a middle of the road player in the league for a bunch of years. You certainly expect those types of assets to yield greater results. Would that make him a bust? I dunno, but I'd venture to guess that almost nobody on LGW would take Zadina in a redraft, and that probably says something about the pick vs. his performance to date.

Edited November 30, 2021 by kipwinger

[bIueadams 776]

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

While true, the overall point of that post was to point out that both Ras and Zadina have some work to do to become more reliable, consistent NHLers, and that they both deserve flack where as Zadina gets almost all of it on his own. 

Having said that, it's also too early to give up on either of them. 

We've covered this. Nobody is bending over to defend Ras, hence there's no ongoing backnforth about flak over it.

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Ehhh... Hronek is a totally fine second pair dman. He was awful to start the season, but has been much better since. Hard to complain with him being a second round draft pick and all. 

Zadina and Ras both have not done what they were drafted to do: score. Zadina was supposed to be the skilled scorer, Ras was supposed to be the monster net front presence who got all the garbage goals. 

Zadina developed a nice defensive game and is showing more playmaking skill than scoring. His shot needs work at the NHL level. 

Ras is a good defensive center on his on nights, and a disaster on his off nights. 

We'd like more from both, but both have plenty of time to figure s*** out. 

One stipulation I have between Ras and Zadina is deployment.

Ras was supposed to be a net front PP specialist. But he's not being deployed like that at all. Hard to blame a guy for not being Holmstrom on the PP when he's not being deployed on the PP. He's being deployed as a bottom 6 PK center and faceoff man. And at that he's pretty good. Needs to add weight and check some dumb decision making, but he looks okay and developing well into this role. Maybe his PP chances come later?

Zadina on the other hand is being deployed exactly where we expected him to be. As a top6 PP winger. And he's failing at that miserably right now.

I honestly think Zadina should stay in the bottom 6 and kill penalties right now, and give other players chances in the top6 and on the PP. Not cause I hate him, but because I honestly think that that sheltering is what's best for him right now. Where he's been isn't working for him or the team.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I'm probably not being precise enough with my language. A player can definitely be good without scoring. But within the context of the "Is Zadina a Bust" debate, it's probably not good asset management if a rebuilding team uses a top ten pick (passing on guys like Quinn Hughes) for a defensively responsible winger with finishing issues (see what I did there?).

I'm not the authority, but I do think the value of the pick you used on a guy vs. the type of player he turns into makes a difference. For example, if we used two high end picks to trade up for Sebastian Cossa and he turns into a Jonathan Bernier type goalie I'm not going to say it was a solid pick just because he's a middle of the road player in the league for a bunch of years. You certainly expect those types of assets to yield greater results. Would that make him a bust? I dunno, but I'd venture to guess that almost nobody on LGW would take Zadina in a redraft, and that probably says something about the pick vs. his performance to date.

First bolded part: this is LGWs collective disease when pooping on Zadina. Not you generally. But others. And it's usually what rallies other to defend him. 

Second bolded part: impossible to argue with

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

At his current scoring rate he's have about 40 goals after 240 games, so that's something to look forward to.

The good news is that I've watched the last 20 games and can definitely see an improvement in his shooting. He's getting way better. Definitely not trying to fire low percentage shots through the goalie's logo anymore. So I expect that shooting percentage to take off at any time.

#37 was allowed to do this for about 8 seasons.  Why does Zboss only get 2?  I miss the shin pad assassin!

[kipwinger 8,771]

3 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

#37 was allowed to do this for about 8 seasons.  Why does Zboss only get 2?  I miss the shin pad assassin!

I'm not sure if you're being partially serious or not so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've never advocated trading, waiving, or benching Zadina. So I'm not sure why you think he's "only getting 2". I think he should be on a third line OR playing opposite someone like Vrana so that at least one player on the line can make good use of all the offensive zone time Zadina helps create.

Also, if we're comparing Zadina to Mikael Samuelsson now then I think the "Is he a bust" debate has pretty much reached it's logical conclusion.

[Akakabuto 1,863]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I honestly don't know what TF happened to the kid between now and then.

The process happened. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

22 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not sure if you're being partially serious or not so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've never advocated trading, waiving, or benching Zadina. So I'm not sure why you think he's "only getting 2". I think he should be on a third line OR playing opposite someone like Vrana so that at least one player on the line can make good use of all the offensive zone time Zadina helps create.

Also, if we're comparing Zadina to Mikael Samuelsson now then I think the "Is he a bust" debate has pretty much reached it's logical conclusion.

Yah, I hope Zboss rounds our into a better goal scorer.  But you may be right.  The writing might soon be on the wall.  I really want to see how he looks in March/April with Suter and Vrana.  He should hit the stat sheet with those 2 more frequently.

[kipwinger 8,771]

3 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Yah, I hope Zboss rounds our into a better goal scorer.  But you may be right.  The writing might soon be on the wall.  I really want to see how he looks in March/April with Suter and Vrana.  He should hit the stat sheet with those 2 more frequently.

I actually think he could be a real asset as a solid defensive winger who can gain/maintain possession and compliment more skilled offensive guys in the top six. Ideally we'll upgrade from Suter as the 2C (he'd be a good 3C) and find a playmaker to pair with Vrana. When that happens I wouldn't mind Zadina being the "other guy". I think a Roslovic/Mittelstadt/Newhook type with Vrana and Zadina would be a hellish good scoring line and Zadina's possession game would be absolutely necessary when playing with two less defensively inclined guys like that. And obviously you'd imagine his production would increase by virtue of playing with more talented offensive players as well.

[bIueadams 776]

45 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

The process happened. 

.... so Zadina is blashill's fault after all

[Akakabuto 1,863]

 

[kipwinger 8,771]

2 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

 

I'm gonna need this kid to stop making me look like an *******. Also I'm gonna need to know what kind of Matrix type sh*t allowed that shot to get through.

Edited November 30, 2021 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

 

I'm gonna need this kid to stop making me look like an *******. Also I'm gonna need to know what kind of Matrix type sh*t allowed that shot to get through.

You blaming you're condition on Wallinder?  

[kipwinger 8,771]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You blaming you're condition on Wallinder?  

Nah, I misspoke. It's obviously Blashill's fault.

[bIueadams 776]

Zadina:
Diagnosis: Touched by the angels
Prescription: Books, xanax, less curve, more flex

Rasmussen:
Diagnosis: Lanklet
Prescription: Heavy objects, milk

Edited November 30, 2021 by bIueadams