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Member Since 10 Dec 2003
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#2614848 The Bowman Effect

Posted by Nightfall on 16 June 2015 - 07:15 PM

I know I have said this before but I will say it again.


Dave Tallon deserves much of the credit for the rebuild of the Hawks.  Keep in mind that he was the GM from the mid 90s to 2009.  He drafted all the top talent that you see out there today.  Stan Bowman has drafted some key players.  Shaw was a big pickup for them in the draft.  Still, the Bowmans were not a factor back when Tallon was drafting these great players.


If the Wings want to follow in the success of Chicago, then they should do what Chicago did.


1. Suck for 10+ years.  Get a number of top draft picks.

2. Draft great players and develop them.

3  Sign a big free agent like Hossa.

4. ?

5. Profit


How many would be happy with missing the playoffs for a period of time to get top draft picks?  Not many.

#2614627 2015 SCF : Chicago Blackhawks vs. Tampa Bay Lightning

Posted by Nightfall on 15 June 2015 - 10:04 PM


#2614609 2015 SCF : Chicago Blackhawks vs. Tampa Bay Lightning

Posted by Nightfall on 15 June 2015 - 09:56 PM

Yup, if you have a team that is utter crap for 10 years, you too can build through the draft like the Hawks and win 3 cups.  Dave Talon and Stan Bowman built this team smart.


Unless your management is as worthless as Edmonton.

No matter who wins at the end of these things, I still get chills when the final horn sounds.

And I like watching the losing team cry too.
Not gonna lie.


So you liked watching the Wings cry in 2009?

#2614557 2015 SCF : Chicago Blackhawks vs. Tampa Bay Lightning

Posted by Nightfall on 15 June 2015 - 07:27 PM

Winning the Stanley Cup not only takes puck luck, but it takes healthy players.  So far, Chicago has lost some players like Rozival, but they have been able to plug others in that are just as good.  Meanwhile, players on the Lightning are very key players that cannot be easily replaced because they are very good players.  You can tell Johnson and Kuterchov (sp) are both hurt.


No excuses though.  The Lightning have to dig deep to win the game tonight.

#2612894 All Purpose Grand Rapids Griffins Thread

Posted by Nightfall on 02 June 2015 - 06:39 PM

I am watching the AHL feed and they just talked about the Utica goaltending coach that turned things around for the Comets.  The man's name?  Dan Cloutier.


When I hear that name, all I can think about is this.....


#2612231 WCF : (3) Chicago Blackhawks vs. (1) Anaheim Ducks

Posted by Nightfall on 30 May 2015 - 09:31 PM

If someone would ask me I'd tell them that Toews, Kane, Keith and Seabrook is a very good core to build around. Hossa of course was a great signing.

Winning in this league is impossible without top picks
Personally I'd gladly throw away a season to draft a guy like Eichel, McDavid or Toews


No thanks.  Tanking is such a pansy move.

#2612223 WCF : (3) Chicago Blackhawks vs. (1) Anaheim Ducks

Posted by Nightfall on 30 May 2015 - 09:09 PM

Hawks going for their 3rd Cup in 5 years. 


The Bowmans are impressive, aren't they? 


Thanks to only being relevant since 2008-09.


From 97-08, the Hawks went to the playoffs 1 time and didn't win a playoff series.  All those draft picks all those years, and finally Dale Talon came in and helped build the team there.  Stan Bowman has been great as well, but the key here is all the high draft picks they grabbed all those years.

#2612191 WCF : (3) Chicago Blackhawks vs. (1) Anaheim Ducks

Posted by Nightfall on 30 May 2015 - 08:40 PM

That's not a goal, but man Hossa is still going strong at 36. 


Agreed!  Hossa isn't a beast like he used to be, but man.....


Now thats bulls***.  4-0.  That was a kicking motion IMHO.

#2612183 WCF : (3) Chicago Blackhawks vs. (1) Anaheim Ducks

Posted by Nightfall on 30 May 2015 - 08:34 PM


Hey, I'll take third round exits at this point.  I forgot what those feel like.  


Quenneville used to be labeled a playoff choker also.  Now, he's two weeks away from his 3rd Cup.  


Agreed.  It always feels empty unless you win your last game, but a 3rd round exit would be an improvement.

You could get one for free if you lived in Africa


Imagine how they will feel when the Chicago Stanley Cup Champions merchandise shows up in a couple weeks.  :D


The Ducks Conference Finals gear will probably be preferred.  :)

#2610623 The return of The Mule?

Posted by Nightfall on 27 May 2015 - 09:05 AM

I haven't heard anything positive which is unfortunate.  I really do hope he can come back, but the saga is starting to play out like Marc Savard.  Mule won't retire though, and he shouldn't be forced to retire either.  The insurance and the Wings will pay his contract for the next 5 years while he is on LTIR.  His salary won't count towards the cap. 


Franzen helped deliver us a cup in 2008 and helped us get to the finals in 2009.  He deserves the rest of his contract (either playing or on LTIR) and the respect of Wings fans.

#2610608 Jim Devellano on Mantha's play: "Very disappointing"

Posted by Nightfall on 27 May 2015 - 08:02 AM

There is literally link after link of descriptions like this from scouts. If you've followed him since the draft then you'd know this has always been the knock on him. I hoped he had put that behind him the next year in juniors when he did all that scoring, but he's been incredibly inconsistent and invisible at times in Grand Rapids. Standing and watching the puck seems to be up there right alongside goal scoring for him. It's frustrating to watch him.


While I really did enjoy reading and watching you cherry pick bad things that some scouts said about him, you didn't post a single link from his playing time in the AHL this season documenting that he was lacking the work ethic.  I asked for a source or a link that showed that his work ethic on the ice this season was poor.  You are talking like you have been watching him.  As someone who has been watching him this season, I can tell you this isn't the case.  The coaching staff continues to speak highly of him.  Even the scouting reports from the very links you gave also speak highly of his work ethic (to which you omitted).


Mantha joined the professional ranks in 2014-15; skating for Red Wings' AHL affiliate Grand Rapids. Slowed by an injury that kept him from competing for an NHL spot in Detroit, he returned to the ice in November 2014. He has had the battles and struggles not uncommon for a first-year pro making the jump from junior hockey. Long-term he is expected to be a consistent scorer at the NHL level and a top-line forward.


Here is another one.  This time from someone who is watching him play in the AHL this year.




Case in point, we must be patient with him. He's got the skill, he's got the work ethic, and he sure as hell has got the tools.. I have every reason to believe that he will pan out into a great hockey player at the professional level.


How about from the coach himself.  Surely he would know better than us.




“That’s just going to take time, but habits will change if work at them and willing to work hard at them and listen and get better. That’s what he’s certainly been willing to do.


“We know he can score goals,” said Blashill. “But he’s actually got an ability to make lots of plays with the puck in tight areas and I think when you’ve got that kind of stick, at that size level, when you can skate like that – its just a really good package.”


“When you care as much as he cares, as soon as he learns the daily attention to detail and the daily work ethic it takes, with his skill set, he’s going to be a special player.”




I believe what you are seeing with Mantha is less about the work ethic and more about learning what it takes to be a successful NHL player.  Something that every player has to learn but it takes time to get there. 

#2610409 At what point does the GM deserve credit/blame?

Posted by Nightfall on 26 May 2015 - 02:35 PM

No worries :) I just remember hearing announcers mention that he was undrafted sometime this post season so I looked into it. Good find on yzermans part.


Both him and Palat were great finds.  Palat was a late round selection (208 overall)

#2610401 At what point does the GM deserve credit/blame?

Posted by Nightfall on 26 May 2015 - 01:21 PM


Johnson was undrafted. and was signed as a free agent by tampa bay in 2011... after Yzerman took over. 


My bad on that.  I was thinking Johnson but it was Hedman I was thinking about.  He was drafted in 2009.

#2610381 All Purpose Grand Rapids Griffins Thread

Posted by Nightfall on 26 May 2015 - 10:35 AM

I honestly wouldn't be at all surprised if the Griffins win 4 straight, taking the series in 5. I think we're much deeper up front (GRG - 3.5 GF/G vs UTI - 2.2 GF/G) and better on the back end as well, but we lose in the goaltending battle (GRG - 2.9 GA/G, UTI - 2.2 GA/G). We have much better special teams (GRG - 25%PP, UTI - 14.8%PP / GRG - 84.1%PK, UTI - 77.2%PK). Markstrom is the better goalie, but since those first two goals against McCollum, he has looked very solid. They finished 3 points ahead in the regular season but with the additions of Larkin and Bertuzzi, I think that puts us over the top.


I agree, the stats are there, but how many times have we seen a hot goalie steal a series in the playoffs?  I would say too many than I can count in my lifetime of watching hockey.


I am a glass half full guy though so I am hoping to see all 3 games go the way of the Griffins and them advance to the calder cup finals.

#2610367 At what point does the GM deserve credit/blame?

Posted by Nightfall on 26 May 2015 - 08:49 AM

We will forever rue the day we let Yzerman go.  We wanted him to overripe before becoming GM.  Next thing you know, he doesn't want to overripe, he goes to Tampa, makes two Conference Finals, and trades KFQ (as he's called here) for a first round pick.  Yeah, it's not all him and there's other factors involved, but it's hard to say that he's not succeeding, because he is.    


To answer Nightfall's question, there is no magic number for how long a GM should have.  It depends. Holland has been lucky that he surrounded himself with smart people in the front office, good coaches, great players and no salary cap.  As the people around him left, the salary cap disappeared, and the top players got old, he doesn't look so hot anymore.  I would have pulled the plug a few seasons ago on Holland and gone in a new direction. 


You are very quick to give Yzerman credit for the conference finals appearance in 2011 when he was just hired in March.  I give him the same credit because his hiring brought a lot of mental stability to the franchise.  Still, many would look at Holland's team in 98 and say he did nothing and deserves no credit.  Same with Yzerman's team in 2011.


In short, a GM's title at the time of the season ending is who gets credit in my book.

I think it depends on the team. Which players are drafted and developed by the Gm there compared to the one who took over. Look at the hawks. Their core group was built by Dale Talon. He drafted Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook. He traded for Sharp. He signed Hossa. Stan Bowman is still riding Talons team. Bowman has done a good job keeping solid depth to replace guys he lost to stay under the cap I.e. Ladd, Byfuglien. But the core of that team is all Dale Talon. The Wings team which won in 1997 and 1998 was essentially built by Bryan Murray starting with the infamous 89 draft when he selected Fedorov, Lidstrom and Konstantinov. Its tough to determine which Gms get credit for what. Anyone can interpret one way or the other.


Great post!  I agree.  Which is why the person who is hired in at the time is the one who gets credit.  Doesn't matter what has been done previously.


Yet, there are many here that like to point at the successes and failures of GMs and put an asterisk by some of their accomplishments or failures just based on the amount of time they have been in control.  That really is what this thread is all about.  After hearing some of the discussion in other threads, I decided to see what everyone thought as a whole.