Learn2LuvIt

No, no they don't. Crosby is the best player in this era by a wide margin.

Wide margin? ??  Who had more points this season?  AO won the Hart twice...Sid once.  Wide margin?  Look at how many times Wayne, Gordie, and Mario won the Hart...a ton of times each. AO has Sid beat on this. I take Cups, Olympic medals, WJ's, etc. out of my consideration on this because those are team accomplishments.  I don't know who I think is better of the two (I think I'd actually take Dats over them both...that's just me though) but there are a lot of folks who think AO is a better player. Yes, yes they do.

Believe what you want but I'm not a Crosby fan.  How am I defending him blindly?  Look at his list of achievements.  Before his injury he was destroying this league.  He was absolutely the best player.  

As for All Time Greats and what qualifies as "all time", it gets into semantics.  No way do I include Crosby with Howe, Mario and Gretzky (and Orr) yet.   But when you look at his achievements by the age of 24, he has a place pretty high up in hockey history already, and if he stays healthy it will probably get much higher.


And I'm not sure what your point was about AO and the gap widening affecting him being an all time great.

Point is, if there is a debate about two seperate players that have played roughly in the same time period, roughly same amount of seasons, and there is an debate whether who is or has been better....then it's hard to transition that same player (Sid in your case) to on any All Time list...  Did anyone question year after year if there was a better player than Gretzky-no.  Mario-no.  Howe-no.  Sid-yes.  To be an All Time great there should be no debate that he is or was at least the best player in the league for the majority of his career.  Right now, a lot of folks believe AO has been better for the past 3 seasons.
Secondly-How did his complete body of work look at the end of this season?  Oh he was hurt.  Yeah, a lot of players get hurt, careers end, never the same after an injury, yada yada...this all adds to the lore and realization of accomplishment and what the actual true greats went through to be in this very small group of players.  Staying healthy is a part of hockey...not an excuse.  Yes, if he stays healthy and does stays on pace for another 5-10 years....then you've got substance to having him on any All Time short list.

Rocket Richard trophy
Stanley Cup (and another Finals appearance)
Art Ross
Pearson
Hart
Olympic Gold Medal
World Junior Gold medal

has 82 points in 62 career playoff games and had 66 points in 41 games this season before his injury.

All before he's what, 24 years old?  If a Red Wings player had done all that you wouldn't call them one of the most talented players of all time?

I think he's a snotty little ****** much of the time, but Crosby is already one of the all time greats, and it's bad for the NHL if he's not playing.  Wouldn't it be bad for the NHL if Datsyuk wasn't playing?

It's still a canadian game and Sid is a Canadian superstar.  Or course they're going to talk more about him.  Yes, it'd be great if they focused more on some of the other great players in this league, but that's not his fault.  And honestly, I've been an Ovechkin fan but Crosby is clearly the better of the two, and the gap was widening before his injury.

If your ALL TIME GREAT'S list is made up of 10+ players...than yes you may have an arguement.  But I believe when most talk about "All Time" anything, most have a very short list (standard list...not in this order: Gretzky, Howe, Mario.....Done!)  If you want to run this list into the 15+ or 20+ greatest of All Time players...you may have an arguement.  But today he's not in the top 5 of All Time.  Probably not even close.  But ask yourself this....if you have to go 6+, 10+, 20+ deep into your "All Time" list ....are they really the best/most talented of ALL TIME???  No, not really.  Really a great players, yes...is it fun to rank the really great players, yes...All Time- no.
You say you think he's a ******, but in all honesty in think your a fan of his or else I'm mistaken and your defending him blindly and not realizing that a lot of people don't even think he's the best player in the league right now, or even the past few years (ever since AO has turned it on).  If you have to argue the notion that you believe he is the better player than AO, and the "gap has been widing before his injury", then he's clearly not "ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS".  You might want to look at the great history of this game and some of the truely "all time greats" players.  Even Don Cherry who is a Sid slappy has been quoted as saying "he's not there yet, but by God when I retire he just might be".  Further debating that he's better than AO blows up your point.

No one is putting an All-time label on him now, but he's one of the few players in this generation that have the ability to do so. He's on the pace to be one.

The NHL will suffer so very much if Crosby does not recover 100%. Crosby will be the reason the NHL will be successful league or fall back into the shadows

Actually they are.  Did you thread this entire thread?  See quote from CupforWings below:

<<Crosby is more then just another talented player... The guy is a beast, is 23 years old, and was on pace for 120 or more points. I hate Crosby as much as the next guy, but he is one of the most talented players of all time. Hopefully he is able to recover and keep putting up monster points like he was this year.>>

And...
Actually I think the success of the NHL relies on the fans putting up money to support the league by going to games, buying merchandise, and watching games on TV.  Sid is only one player who can only effect these factors in a limited way.  I completely disagree that the future of the NHL lies in the hands of Sidney Crosby.  Example: this years first round playoff's have brought record nielsen "shares"/tv auidence in many, many markets.  Sid's wasn't even in the playoff's this year.  Compltely disagree.  Is it better with him, of course.  Will it fail or "fall back into the shadows" without him, no.  If I'm a Tampa Bay fan am I NOT going to support my team and go to games, buy jersey's, follow them on TV because Sid is not playing for the Pens?  Ridiculous.

Crosby is more then just another talented player... The guy is a beast, is 23 years old, and was on pace for 120 or more points.  I hate Crosby as much as the next guy, but he is one of the most talented players of all time.  Hopefully he is able to recover and keep putting up monster points like he was this year.

IMO...talented and really good players do it for 5+ years.  I think consistency and longevity are the trademarks of truely great players.  Furthermore, to be considered the most "talented player of all time", I believe your looking at guys that did "it" for 10+, 15+ seasons.  I used to hear the same chatter about players being the "most talented", or could be "greatest of all time" and ultimately end up not even being close.  LaFontaine, Lindros, Pavel Bure, D. Hatcher (touted as the best complete package looking size and skill for a D man of All Time...granted that was ESPN and it was pre-CBA), Forsberg, Yashin, Bertuzzi (back in the days with Vanc...used to be touted all the time that he may be the best Power Forward of all time), ....you get the point.  None of these players would get on anyone's radar for making anyones "All Time" SHORT list (at least if your sane).  Unless you consistently perform year-in year-out, and do this for 10, 15+ seasons....I don't think you'll ever be considered as the best, greatest, most talented, of all time.  Let's see where Sid is in 5 seasons....then the conversation may be relevant.

edit: spelling

As far as Clowe's injury goes, I'd guess it's probably something like a separated shoulder. You don't get a concussion from a big hit, you get it from hitting your head, which it doesn't look like he did. The guy plays a physical game.

Incorrect.  Concussions are caused by the brain shifting and as a result bruising of the brain.  Sudden unnatural head stops/jars/shocks (due to hits to the body, car accidents, etc...) where the body's natural mechanism to adjust and counteract the main vertebrae/spine/neck are causes of concussions as well.  In fact, earlier medicine (pre 1990's) used to term a lot of these such injuries as "whip lash".  The medical community focused on treating the neck area of these "whip lash" cases due to the simptoms being severe headaches stemming from the lower/back lobe of the brain.  Medicine has developed since that many these injuries were in fact concussions and treating the neck area was of little or no benefit (except if you wanted to wear the neck brace into a court room to win judgement in your favor).  Furthermore, I have a relative who suffered a minor concussion from running into the boards (outdoor boards that had no glass and you could actually bend yourself over the top of the boards) at full speed while playing roller hockey.  His head wasn't touched (one fractured knee cap and broken wrist), but the speed and jar of his body coming to such an abrupt halt due to his lower body impacting the boards at high velocity was the cause.

And honestly, with terrible reffing, a decimated team, and facing a more powerful San Jose team last season the Wings still almost beat them.  The five game series is misleading.  Detroit blew out San Jose in Game 4 and only lost the other games by one goal, with the game winner usually on an extended 5 on 3 penalty kill.

I agree the circumstances going into this years series are very much different and you can throw out last years series as it relates to this years. I believe these circumstances this year actually favor the Wings. However, I think saying we almost beat them last year is a bit of a stretch.  Whatever the case (5-3 PK, etc...), the series was over in 5 games, we didn't almost beat anybody.

Go Wings.

I think Babs is just as much to blame as anyone for lack luster play since Jan.  Ever since we started to stumble in January I've been keeping a close eye on Babs and his peformance. When the Dec stumbles started, I wasn't as concerned thinking it was just one of those periods in a season that EVERY team goes through....but they never seem to have come out of it fully.  Yes a few multi game winning streaks, but I haven't seen them take it to the next level.  I've been paying attention to Babs line changes and matchups, game management, reaction after wins/losses, how he manages his staff of coaches, what the players are saying, stats, etc...  

I'll say this, he is no doubt a good coach and I want him behind our bench.  However this year, I haven't been impressed.  I don't think this team this year has found a true identity.  I don't think this team plays as a cohesive unit most nights.  IMO, we've gotton this high in the standings by riding one hot player to the next, but never all together.  I believe he's been out coached in a few games.  I believe that he's spent too much time juggling lines/players to get other players going to the detriment of winning consistently (Hudler, Madano, Fil).  I realize in cases he is tyring to accomodate for injuries, but as far as injuries go we've actually had it fairly good this year.  At this point in the season he should have his 2-3 entire team line combo's for the playoffs pretty much decided...I don't think he has a clue if the playoffs were to start tomorrow.  McCrimmon is horrible...or at least our D has been horrible and that's his responsibility (Lids, Raffi, Stewy, and Kronner...most teams would give their left arm to have a top four like this??).  On paper I believe we have the best team in the NHL (on PAPER!).  His job is to get the most out of his players, which with Wings pool of talent should translate into winning/domination for the majority.  The job is not getting done and I believe Babs is underperforming and I'll be very interested to watch him as these playoff's start.

Okay right or wrong I've given a lot of opions above.  What's your opinion of Babs coaching job this year?

He seriouly doesn't even look like he's trying.

How about late in the game, we've got a potential 3-on-2, and he juts dumps it in on the goalie who freezes the puck. Seriously Johan?

Start moving your feet, start going to dangerous areas, start hitting, shooting, just show some effort. It's infuriating.

I saw the same thing.  I've seen this quite a bit more than usual with the Wings as of late.  If I remember correctly, after we blew a few big leads (Blues in Jan-3 goal lead; Coyotes in March-3 goal lead, Edmonton in Jan, etc...)....you started hearing the players talking about practicing "getting the puck behind there (opposing team's) D, and battling for the puck down low".  I understand this being effective when you have the lead, but I've been seeing it more and more when we DON'T have the lead.  Scary.  This team thrives on offensive creativity and puck possesion.  We are not built to be a dump and chase team.  Jiri Hudler is not a player you want dumping and chasing-he's like 5' 7''.  Dats, Modano, Cleary,....not dump and chase.  At any rate, want to see the Wings get back to their style that's made them so effective.  

In this same spirit, I've been pretty critical of Babs as of late.  He's got to figure this out and I'll be watching what he does as the playoff's approach.  In my eyes, pressure is on Babs this year come playoff time.

and why is Carhartt giving out a hockey award?
Oh yeah, to sell some jackets.

Why does a pizza empire owner own a hockey team?
Oh yeah, to sell some tickets.

Ahh Capitalism.

Places I'd stay if coming in from out of town for a long awaited get-away to see Wings game with wife:
MGM Grand Casino (Hands down best...IMO) - Pricey, but beautiful hotel, the best rooms downtown, great location, tons to do pre/post game, great restaraunts (Woflgang Pucks, Bourbon Steak, Saltwater, etc...).
Book Cadillac - Again, a little pricey but great rooms, great location, great restaurant in lobby (Roast - Top Chef contributor and elite chef Michael Symon's restaurant).
MotorCity Casino- Nice rooms, kind of pricey for overall package, but good location in Greektown.
Holiday Inn Express - Adequate rooms, great location, great price.

Where I wouldn't stay:
Atheneum Greektown - Place used to be really nice and great location in Greektown.  Stayed there for a party a few months ago....OMG...not good.  They told me they are renovating the entire hotel within the year...I'd hold off until then.

May I be the first to say prematurely.... Welcome to Detroit...we're really glad to have you visit!!  Have fun, and if you can, forget about all the stereotyping that you hear about Detroit, and you'll have a great time, meet some great people, and experience a great city that was once (and will be again someday) the worlds most respected and envied cities.

Hope this helps and the above is just my opinion.

I'm content to watch them suffer.

I love the city of Toronto and it's people.  Spending a lot of time in Canada I'm pretty pro-Cananda and usually give them the benefit of the doubt.  However, when it comes to the Leafs and Leaf fans I have no mercy on the pain they experience.  I can't tell you how many times I've been spoken "down" to by Leafs fans about the game of hockey and their superior intellegence.  I always make it clear theat I'm a life long Wings fan who follows the sport very closely, and usually I'm very gracious and listen to them preach to me as if I had just become aware of the sport of hockey.  All the while I'm thinking to myself: "really?...really?....if Toronto and the Leafs are such the epticenter of hockey, why have they been not only a below average team the past 5-10 years, but a team that makes horrendous errors in all aspects that make up an organization....from the GM down to coaching....I mean really???  Okay??"  

To me, it's kind of like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame being located in Cleveland.  Come on....Really?  Although a disc jockey in Cleveland was the first to utter the term "Rock and Roll"...is that ALL we're basing this on?  Motown, LA, New York, Memphis, etc....  Cleveland??  Really??  

In one particualr instance I had a Leafs fan tell me at a bar in Toronot that "we really like Draper, we've thought about bringing him home a few times and know we could have gotten him easily".  Again...."really????"

I saw him interviewed by Mick and Ken during either Thurs or Fridays game.  Although he may not want to show his hand on the injury publicy, he sounded pretty positive on injury healing well and him coming back to play this season.  I wonder if Ozzy may force Kenny to make any decision on bringing in another goaler.  I can understand that Ozzy feels he can still be a top goaler when healthy and thinking that there is enough time between now and "when it counts/playoff's" that he should be ready to go.  But if I'm Kenny, I'm taking Ozzy's opinion of his health and status out of the equation and deferring to the doctors.  Ozzy will always lean on the side of being ready to go...the doctors will give the unbias facts of how the injury is healing and chances of reaggrivation.  I'm a bit concerned that if Kenny makes a move for a goaler, it will be without Ozzy's buy-in, and has the potential to end ugly. Ozzy is a complete professional and has always handled himself with class and understanding of the NHL as a business without being selfish, but this may cross the line.  This could mean the end of Ozzy's playing days and I think this could be a very hard pill for him to swallow...especially if he thinks he's going to be healthy and ready.

Very well written.  Good to see someone on LGW has some actual talents.  

Can you please write one about the Penguins too?    

I'm hoping I can jump in here an help out with the Penguins poetry:

Here's my first crack at it...please jump in and help me out if you can:

Sid's my name and hockey is my game,
The NHL loves me and makes my life cushy,
But underneath it all I'm really a big ......  hmmmmm?  

Having trouble finishing this last line  

4) Abdelkader-Helm-Eaves/Miller/Draper

Well, the only issue I see with this is with the fourth line.  Eaves and Miller have been playing fantastic...actually that 4th line has been our most consistent line and bringing it every night.  Babs has said so himself. In addition, these guys are monsters on the PK.  IMO-I don't believe in creating an atmosphere where playing well gets you less playing time and rotated in and out of the line up.  I think Babs made this clear by benching Hudler when he easily could have gone to the 4th line for a sacraficial lamb to give the Hud/Cleary/Mod line more time to get going.  You play well = you play more.  You play poorly = your going to sit and think about it until someone replaces you on the healthy scratch list.  Not to pump our chest...but a great problem to have and any GM in the league would kill for this problem...deep, deep waters my friends.