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You know what bugs me? People who say we've s*** the bed and were in a "big hole" before they've even seen this team take the ice. Not saying Holland is infallible, just saying we should reserve judgement till Holland and this team have a chance to show what they're made of. I trust that Holland knows what he's doing better than you and I do....hence why he has an office in the best front office in all of hockey and we're in our armchairs.....I'll join the doom n gloomers like yourself when the ship ACTUALLY sinks....till then I'll wait and hope for the best come fall.

The Axe: Google and Hockey DB are your friends, research things before you just say something. I know the internet is mostly filled with Porn, bad journalism, and stupid pop up ads, but it has useful parts too. Now this is what has always confused me about this argument; the stats! So what you are saying is Stevie must have scored 3/4 of his goals in the 7 years he played in the 80s? (I know exaggeration, but you get the point) Ok lets be fair to the Feds camp on this one and just compare years they played together on the same team, would that be better? No Ana feds, no 1980s Yzerman stats. Career totals from 1990-91 season until 2002-03 Sergei Fedorov gp g a pt pims plus/minus Playoff gp g a pts pim 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 31 48 79 66 11 -Playoffs 7 1 5 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 32 54 86 72 26 -11 5 5 10 8 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 73 34 53 87 72 33 -7 3 6 9 23 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 82 56 64 120 34 48 -7 1 7 8 6 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 42 20 30 50 24 6 17 -7 17 24 6 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 39 68 107 48 49 -19 2 18 20 10 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 30 33 63 30 29 -20 8 12 20 12 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 21 6 11 17 25 10 -22 10 10 20 12 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 26 37 63 66 -9 10 1 8 9 8 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 68 27 35 62 22 8 -9 4 4 8 4 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 32 37 69 40 12 -6 2 5 7 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 31 37 68 36 20 -23 5 14 19 20 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 47 83 52 15 -4 1 2 3 0 Totals 908 400 554 954 587 276 162 50 113 163 113 Steve Yzerman 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 -2 -Playoffs7 3 3 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 26 -11 3 5 8 12 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 33 -7 4 3 7 4 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 11 -3 1 3 4 0 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 6 -15 4 8 12 0 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 29 -18 8 12 20 4 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 22 -20 7 6 13 4 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 3 -22 6 18 24 22 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 8 -10 9 4 13 0 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 28 -8 0 4 4 0 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 54 18 34 52 18 4 -1 0 0 0 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 52 13 35 48 18 11 -23 6 17 23 10 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 16 2 6 8 8 6 -4 0 1 1 2 864 369 609 978 526 185 149 51 84 135 62 With half a season less hockey played Yzerman has more pts & more assists than feds. Bottom Line Yzerman put up better numbers in fewer games (I will admit Feds scored more goals but less than the gp difference): 90-91 through 02-03 Totals Feds 908 400 554 954 587 276 Stevie 864 369 609 978 526 185 If you look at the first stats the only seasons Feds dominates Yzerman in stats is the years Yzerman played 50 games. They are also Fedorov's only two great seasons. Feds had five 80pt seasons including two 100 pt seasons in this span, Yzerman had six 80 pt seasons and three 100+ point seasons including a 58 g 79 a 137 pt season. Fedorov outscored Yzerman in the playoffs by 28 points in 13 more games. Impressive! Yzerman scored more goals in that period however, but was Feds had far more assists, but had 6 post season were he scored 2 goals or fewer including 93-94 when he scored 1 goal in 7 games while Yzerman missed 4 games, or 00-01 when Yzerman and Shanny had a combined 3 games played while Yzerman put up all 0s in the one game Shanny went all Chuck Woolery (2 &2) in two games, feds played 6 games and put up 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points. This was when the team really need 5 goals and 2 assists from him. Not only was Yzerman on par with your most talented player in the history of the game, he put up better numbers, in the 80s or not. Numbers do not lie, Yzerman was better than Feds (in his prime) and played most of the end of their tenure badly injured. Not only was Yzerman the better statistical player, he was the epitome of what it means to be a Captain and a Red Wing. He played on broken bones while Feds played when he wanted (he was a much more talented Franzen). Many people forget the post seasons in which the Wings relied on Feds because Yzerman and Shanny were banged up, and when feds was the only Horse Det had in the race and he failed to show up. Again Yzerman is a top 10 player statistically in the history of the league: Goals 8th all time 692 Points 6th all time 1755 Assists 7th all time 1063 I know I said I would leave the 80s and the mid 2000s out of this but over his career Yzerman was a 1.16 ppg player, while Feds was .944. Feds is Carmelo Anthony, phenomenal when surrounded by elite talent, unbelievable when he is counted on to be the second or third cog in the wheel. Then when it is all on him he craps out. Yzerman towed the company line, even when faced with trade rumors he did what was best for the org, not him. This is what will prevent Feds from being up in the rafters, these are the rafters in the Joe, not in Colorado where Ray Bourque played 1.5 seasons and got his # retired. The Wings have had a long history of great players, it takes a special player to get his number retired in the Winged Wheel. Had Fed towed the company line a little more, not let his personal matters interfere, not let his ego and wallet interfere, and had he stayed a Wing for his career maybe 91 is in the rafters already. As it is he fails to meet the Team first requirement, as well as the life long Wing requirement( as far as the Lindsey left so blah blah blah, I already addressed that, those players left due to a horrible turn in ownership, not for more money or a chance to be the man). Sorry, no 91 in the rafters. Edit: Wow that was all pretty and formatted until I posted it, then the chart went to poop, glad I cleared it up for you.

I've supported Holland to this point, but if he actually gave up all of that for Yandle, I'd have to seriously re-think my views.

It's a very difficult thing to keep a team a Stanley Cup contender for your entire time as a General Manager. Maybe this current situation was just unavoidable? Why does it have to be Holland failed to make the right moves, when it could very well be there was no moves to be made? Why do people have to attribute blame to someone for a situation they couldn't even begin to understand? If you want to blame Holland for going after Quincey, that's understandable. It was a move that was documented and can be looked back on. Quincey was had for a non-roster player, and has shown glimpses of being a very good top 4 dman in the past. He's got size, speed, and puck skills just a matter of him understanding and getting comfortable in the system. What moves did you want him to do to replace Lidstrom? There hasn't been a defenseman moved the past 5 years that can even be considered a top 10 defenseman? What ass do you want Holland to place his hand up to find one? Ian White was great signing this past year Hard to change your top 6 through trade. Especially a top 6 that is intact of being Stanley Cup champions and helping the team make the playoff year in year out. Sure it would be nice to change it up, they've struggled the past few playoffs. But Nash wasn't an option, and personally I'm not sold on him. Semin would be a rental and I don't believe would ever help you win a Stanley Cup, and I'd rather give Nyquist/Brunner and shot at the top 6 than Semin. Just so we can see what we have and if we need to move on or what. A game hasn't even been played, all of this is based on paper. On paper what if Datsyuk/Zetterberg go back to 90+ points, Filpulla reproduces 60, Quincey goes back to 09 and gets .7 ppg, Kronwall has a 50 point season, Howard continues to prove to be a top 10 goalie, Smith/Nyquist has a Calder caliber season, Sammy gives you 50 points, Bertuzzi, gives you 40. Things don't have to be all negative, these are all possibilities as each player has proved to do this(Smith/Nyquist may be a leap of faith, but they've proved to be very very good AHLers at a young age and that trends positively to their production in the NHL), Then maybe players that have yet to prove themselves will, Ericsson could finally learn to block a shot, Kindl may figure out the NHL and use his talent, Helm might learn how to hit a corner and stickhandle, Abdelkader/Tootoo can feed off of each other and really make that 4th line into a force that helps the entire team, Franzen may decide to play 80 games at full speed. It doesn't have to be negative, this situation isn't all bad, and saying our prospect pool is not good just proves that you are trying to find disappointment, and if that's the case you don't have to look hard at any team's situation.

You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality. Ugh.

Death Of A Disco Dancer - The Smiths

It should never have gotten to this point.

Why compare the two, well lets see we are talking about Wing forwards who should or have their number retired, only one of the retired # forwards actually played at the same time as Feds, plus someone else already compared them. But you are missing the point; if you have to say "not Stevie" or "Not Gordie" or not "Lids" they don't belong in the rafters at the Joe! Another example if you don't like the Stevie Y comparison: Lids jersey, no need to put "not Stevie" on the back, he was the Perfect Human for 17+ seasons, was a Captain and a lifelong wing who toke pay cuts to help the team get better. He never played the hold out game, he never said he needed more ice time or to be the man. Yzerman's injuries had nothing to do with not being in shape, it wasn't like he was out due to pulled groins or ab strains. He had surgery that most people are lucky to walk after having, he had an orbital bone shattered by a puck, how do you strengthen and condition your orbital bone?? Yzerman was past his prime when feds was in it, yet Yzerman put up better numbers. And I explained to you when I thought feds crapped out in the playoffs, when Yzerman and Shanny played 3 games, and the team was relying on Feds. But when he did shine the likes of Yzermam, Kozlov, Murphy, Lids, Larionov and others were also producing. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000341998.html Check out how many wings had double digit playoff points. Let me try to explain my position better notice the difference in these sentences: Fedorov was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, who took shifts, games, and even parts of seasons off, left the franchise for a chance to be the man. Yzerman was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing. Lidstrom was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing. Being an elite, world class athlete is simply just not enough to get your # retired for the Wings, sorry, it just isn't enough.

Your argument has failed with others, as well. So you resort to name calling? Tell me why a lot of us our nervous that these Griffins and new comers arent the answer and that trades are necessary now to ice a competitive team. Why do you feel different? Brunner has never played NHL hockey. Nyquist can count his NHL goals on one hand. Tootoo and Samuelsson were let go by other teams. And we didnt replace a 7 time Norris winner with anyone substantial. How do you feel good about all of this?

Eklund 2.0 in my opinion. Throw enough s*** at the wall & see what sticks.

I've been reading some of his stuff and I feel like yea, he's right sometimes and often before anyone else. But I think he just puts out so many tweets and hopes to be right/ hopes people don't notice when he's wrong. Then again, they are all rumors and it is fun to speculate.. I don't think id trust him 100% of the time but I'll still read his posts at least out of curiosity/boredom haha

Roman Josi's response hahahahahaha

Question for you off the top of your head. Who is on the Wild's bottom 6 forwards and 3rd D pairing? No looking on their site either dude time's up...NO ONE OF NOTE!

Who has more career goals? Who has more career points? Who has more Career Assists? Who had more 100 pt seasons? Who had more 50 goal seasons? How many players in NHL history have more goals than Yzerman? Feds? How many players in NHL history have more assists than Yzerman? Feds? How many players in NHL history have more points than Yzerman? Feds? They both had 6 seasons being a minus player, 4 of Yzerman's were with the dead wings. (to be fair all of Feds were with Ana) Feds had 2 unreal seasons (93-94, 95-96), then the rest of his career was very good. 2 Seasons does not make him a better player than Yzerman. We are not discussing talent, not who is more talented Yzerman or Feds. Edit: Yzerman is a top 10 forward statistically in the history of the NHL, Feds is not.

What about the Bieber playing Claude? Who cares what the actor looks like, the end result of him getting pummeled is what matters.

If I had to guess, it's because he is a Holland draft pick.

The state of the central division is one thing. To predict how it's going to go in our division is another. To say that there'll be a substantial decrease in the Red Wings' chances is just that. A prediction. I'm still going to wait till the puck drops and we see who plays, how well they do as as individuals, and in their lines, and as a team. There are so many variables that rise exponentially when you include all the teams. I will never understand making the future choice that your team is going to be crappy or even really iffy, before the games even begin.

I am! Hell, and he isn't 35...But PLEASE NO WHISTLES!!!!!

My dad told me in the late 70's early 80's the Red Wings were called the Detroit Chicken Wings. Cause we were a bunch of *******. Maybe things haven't changed? Nah like I said pipe dream for Doan. Can Phoenix afford to sign him to a 4 year 30 million deal? If so HOW?

I feel so sorry for those of you who have only known the Wings of the last 20 years, but I'm going to try and talk you all off the ledge. Recent history has spoiled this fanbase beyond belief. no doubt, but just because we've hit a bump in the road doesn't mean we should just blow up JLA and ship our current roster off to the remaining 29 teams. We will be able to sign desirable free agents, we will do well in the draft, we just won't have the usual cakewalk to the playoffs. Now, sit down for this one: we may not even make the playoffs. You can either jump ship or take a Valium and wait for the season to begin and enjoy what you have taken for granted for so long.

I'm asking people for players that have actually been traded, because at least then we know it was possible they were to be traded. And we don't know Holland could have landed them, but at least we know they were tradeable in hind-sight rather then just making up that a player we think was tradeable when he never ended up switching teams. I'm not shooting things down, I'm asking for rational moves that Holland could have made to avoid this situation. Just saying he's done a bad job isn't good enough for me, I want to know individual events that he should have and could have made. It might be different for other people, and they are content with criticizing people without any knowledge of events that could improved the situation. I guess I'm different and want to know what move Holland should have made instead of what he actually did rather then just looking at the result and complaining. I just don't understand the complaints without evidence. If Enstrom gets traded tomorrow for a reasonable price, then boom there's my evidence that Holland isn't doing a good enough job. But there hasn't been a top tier defenseman that I know of that's switched teams that would fill what the Red Wings need other than Suter, I want people to bring up Erhoff, Burns, Carle, Shultz etc., and discuss how those players would make a better Red Wings team in the future, for my angle at least I know those players actually moved to a new team. I understand this is a forum, and this is my defense of Holland. I feel if you criticize someone you should have reasonable reasons as to what he didn't do, rather then he didn't anything. I'm not trying to quell anything, I feel people can criticize Holland for trading for Quincy, signing Ian White, drafting McCollum etc. Because these are things that happened, and we look back on other options and how the franchise would fair with different moves. But just blaming Holland for not doing anything? I just don't understand it, and am posting on the forum to get a better understand of it.

Shultz hasn't played an NHL game. Not to mention he wanted to play in Edmonton. Carle would not have been a good fit, he's slow, the absolute opposite of physical(fewest hits on his defense with the most games), gives the puck away more often, and doesn't win battles defensively. He's a good second pairing puck mover, but he's not what the Red Wings need in a top pairing dman especially when you have to commit 6 years to him. Weber wasn't coming here, and he didn't even end up switching teams. Suter is really the only top pairing defenseman that would have made the Wings better. I don't see a move that would have made the Red Wings a cup contender, if you really think Carle can play top line minutes then I guess I can't argue there, I just think Carle is very overrated and is too similar to White/Kronwall/Smith, we need to think defensively in my opinion. A willie mitchell type defenseman would be much more valuable then another offensive dman. It's not Holland's fault a top pairing defenseman is rare, bashing him for not finding a needle in a haystack is unfair in my view. It's not like his missing out on Chara getting traded for a first rounder, if he doesn't get a deal done on a top pairing defenseman and they do get traded then go ahead and bash him. But the top pairing defenseman the Red Wings needed was Suter, and there wasn't a move in the past 4 years that would have made us into a cup contender on the blueline. Holland won't make a rash move to appease the twitter world. He's going to make the right move.

This. He got Lidstrom-like playing time and put up Kyle Quincey numbers. Actually, Quincey was more productive than him at LA and COL. After sleeping on this, I have little interest. Especially if we had to give up any of the top 4 trade assets normally thrown around (Flip, Franzen, Nyquist, Smith)

To me, this is the heart of it:

I find certain aspects of this topic ironic. Things will get better when the season starts and people have the Wings to pick on, instead of each other.