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Another one of my favorite ridiculous retorts these threads get. Like we all applied for Holland's job and he beat us out. esteef

You know what bugs me? People who say we've s*** the bed and were in a "big hole" before they've even seen this team take the ice. Not saying Holland is infallible, just saying we should reserve judgement till Holland and this team have a chance to show what they're made of. I trust that Holland knows what he's doing better than you and I do....hence why he has an office in the best front office in all of hockey and we're in our armchairs.....I'll join the doom n gloomers like yourself when the ship ACTUALLY sinks....till then I'll wait and hope for the best come fall.

The Axe: Google and Hockey DB are your friends, research things before you just say something. I know the internet is mostly filled with Porn, bad journalism, and stupid pop up ads, but it has useful parts too. Now this is what has always confused me about this argument; the stats! So what you are saying is Stevie must have scored 3/4 of his goals in the 7 years he played in the 80s? (I know exaggeration, but you get the point) Ok lets be fair to the Feds camp on this one and just compare years they played together on the same team, would that be better? No Ana feds, no 1980s Yzerman stats. Career totals from 1990-91 season until 2002-03 Sergei Fedorov gp g a pt pims plus/minus Playoff gp g a pts pim 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 31 48 79 66 11 -Playoffs 7 1 5 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 32 54 86 72 26 -11 5 5 10 8 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 73 34 53 87 72 33 -7 3 6 9 23 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 82 56 64 120 34 48 -7 1 7 8 6 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 42 20 30 50 24 6 17 -7 17 24 6 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 39 68 107 48 49 -19 2 18 20 10 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 30 33 63 30 29 -20 8 12 20 12 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 21 6 11 17 25 10 -22 10 10 20 12 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 26 37 63 66 -9 10 1 8 9 8 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 68 27 35 62 22 8 -9 4 4 8 4 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 32 37 69 40 12 -6 2 5 7 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 31 37 68 36 20 -23 5 14 19 20 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 47 83 52 15 -4 1 2 3 0 Totals 908 400 554 954 587 276 162 50 113 163 113 Steve Yzerman 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 -2 -Playoffs7 3 3 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 26 -11 3 5 8 12 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 33 -7 4 3 7 4 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 11 -3 1 3 4 0 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 6 -15 4 8 12 0 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 29 -18 8 12 20 4 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 22 -20 7 6 13 4 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 3 -22 6 18 24 22 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 8 -10 9 4 13 0 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 28 -8 0 4 4 0 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 54 18 34 52 18 4 -1 0 0 0 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 52 13 35 48 18 11 -23 6 17 23 10 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 16 2 6 8 8 6 -4 0 1 1 2 864 369 609 978 526 185 149 51 84 135 62 With half a season less hockey played Yzerman has more pts & more assists than feds. Bottom Line Yzerman put up better numbers in fewer games (I will admit Feds scored more goals but less than the gp difference): 90-91 through 02-03 Totals Feds 908 400 554 954 587 276 Stevie 864 369 609 978 526 185 If you look at the first stats the only seasons Feds dominates Yzerman in stats is the years Yzerman played 50 games. They are also Fedorov's only two great seasons. Feds had five 80pt seasons including two 100 pt seasons in this span, Yzerman had six 80 pt seasons and three 100+ point seasons including a 58 g 79 a 137 pt season. Fedorov outscored Yzerman in the playoffs by 28 points in 13 more games. Impressive! Yzerman scored more goals in that period however, but was Feds had far more assists, but had 6 post season were he scored 2 goals or fewer including 93-94 when he scored 1 goal in 7 games while Yzerman missed 4 games, or 00-01 when Yzerman and Shanny had a combined 3 games played while Yzerman put up all 0s in the one game Shanny went all Chuck Woolery (2 &2) in two games, feds played 6 games and put up 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points. This was when the team really need 5 goals and 2 assists from him. Not only was Yzerman on par with your most talented player in the history of the game, he put up better numbers, in the 80s or not. Numbers do not lie, Yzerman was better than Feds (in his prime) and played most of the end of their tenure badly injured. Not only was Yzerman the better statistical player, he was the epitome of what it means to be a Captain and a Red Wing. He played on broken bones while Feds played when he wanted (he was a much more talented Franzen). Many people forget the post seasons in which the Wings relied on Feds because Yzerman and Shanny were banged up, and when feds was the only Horse Det had in the race and he failed to show up. Again Yzerman is a top 10 player statistically in the history of the league: Goals 8th all time 692 Points 6th all time 1755 Assists 7th all time 1063 I know I said I would leave the 80s and the mid 2000s out of this but over his career Yzerman was a 1.16 ppg player, while Feds was .944. Feds is Carmelo Anthony, phenomenal when surrounded by elite talent, unbelievable when he is counted on to be the second or third cog in the wheel. Then when it is all on him he craps out. Yzerman towed the company line, even when faced with trade rumors he did what was best for the org, not him. This is what will prevent Feds from being up in the rafters, these are the rafters in the Joe, not in Colorado where Ray Bourque played 1.5 seasons and got his # retired. The Wings have had a long history of great players, it takes a special player to get his number retired in the Winged Wheel. Had Fed towed the company line a little more, not let his personal matters interfere, not let his ego and wallet interfere, and had he stayed a Wing for his career maybe 91 is in the rafters already. As it is he fails to meet the Team first requirement, as well as the life long Wing requirement( as far as the Lindsey left so blah blah blah, I already addressed that, those players left due to a horrible turn in ownership, not for more money or a chance to be the man). Sorry, no 91 in the rafters. Edit: Wow that was all pretty and formatted until I posted it, then the chart went to poop, glad I cleared it up for you.

I Want A New Duck - Weird Al Yankovic

To me he's not a legit source. Even if he gets this one right, to me any "anonymous hockey insider" with alleged connections to multiple teams has too much potential for BS. It could easily just be a guy who follows a ton of hockey related twitter feeds, fan forums, and makes some educated guesses. A legitimate source is someone who has their name and identity out there and has a responsibility to get things right and integrity to uphold. Like Dreger and McKenzie.

You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality. Ugh.

Death Of A Disco Dancer - The Smiths

For that package we should be getting Hanzal back as well

It should never have gotten to this point.

I've been reading some of his stuff and I feel like yea, he's right sometimes and often before anyone else. But I think he just puts out so many tweets and hopes to be right/ hopes people don't notice when he's wrong. Then again, they are all rumors and it is fun to speculate.. I don't think id trust him 100% of the time but I'll still read his posts at least out of curiosity/boredom haha

Question for you off the top of your head. Who is on the Wild's bottom 6 forwards and 3rd D pairing? No looking on their site either dude time's up...NO ONE OF NOTE!

Who has more career goals? Who has more career points? Who has more Career Assists? Who had more 100 pt seasons? Who had more 50 goal seasons? How many players in NHL history have more goals than Yzerman? Feds? How many players in NHL history have more assists than Yzerman? Feds? How many players in NHL history have more points than Yzerman? Feds? They both had 6 seasons being a minus player, 4 of Yzerman's were with the dead wings. (to be fair all of Feds were with Ana) Feds had 2 unreal seasons (93-94, 95-96), then the rest of his career was very good. 2 Seasons does not make him a better player than Yzerman. We are not discussing talent, not who is more talented Yzerman or Feds. Edit: Yzerman is a top 10 forward statistically in the history of the NHL, Feds is not.

What about the Bieber playing Claude? Who cares what the actor looks like, the end result of him getting pummeled is what matters.

Whenever talk of sending a number to the rafters pops up, I like to rely on a very simple test to determine whether a number is worthy of being retired: is there even a debate as to whether the jersey is hung? If we're debating it, then the player didn't do enough to convince me he deserves to have his number retired. Yzerman was no debate, Lidstom is no debate. Fedorov (and Osgood for that matter, but that's another topic), there are arguments on both sides and for that matter alone I would not retire his number.

If I had to guess, it's because he is a Holland draft pick.

The state of the central division is one thing. To predict how it's going to go in our division is another. To say that there'll be a substantial decrease in the Red Wings' chances is just that. A prediction. I'm still going to wait till the puck drops and we see who plays, how well they do as as individuals, and in their lines, and as a team. There are so many variables that rise exponentially when you include all the teams. I will never understand making the future choice that your team is going to be crappy or even really iffy, before the games even begin.

Incredibly skilled player, that despite his great numbers, never really met his full potential on the ice and took shifts off... Off the ice, an ingrate and primadona who held an organization (that basically gave him a career and life) hostage and was more interested in being "the guy", than part of something special... his number should never go into the rafters amongst true greats and sully the meaning of what it means to go into elite Red Wing history, which is reserved for only the best of the best

Last night, onacounta we had nothing better to do, Mrs. BigWillie and myself, joined some friends of ours for a night with The Temptations at Pine Knob. (I'll never call it DTE....) I have to say, for a man of 70, "Big Daddy" still can shake it down. I was expecting it to be more of a review band type of situation, but the group gave the group I saw around 1974-75 a run for their money. All of the energy was still there, maybe more. First class showmen, still to this day. Can't wait for Yes and Procol Harum, to compare shows to their pasts.

My dad told me in the late 70's early 80's the Red Wings were called the Detroit Chicken Wings. Cause we were a bunch of *******. Maybe things haven't changed? Nah like I said pipe dream for Doan. Can Phoenix afford to sign him to a 4 year 30 million deal? If so HOW?

I'm asking people for players that have actually been traded, because at least then we know it was possible they were to be traded. And we don't know Holland could have landed them, but at least we know they were tradeable in hind-sight rather then just making up that a player we think was tradeable when he never ended up switching teams. I'm not shooting things down, I'm asking for rational moves that Holland could have made to avoid this situation. Just saying he's done a bad job isn't good enough for me, I want to know individual events that he should have and could have made. It might be different for other people, and they are content with criticizing people without any knowledge of events that could improved the situation. I guess I'm different and want to know what move Holland should have made instead of what he actually did rather then just looking at the result and complaining. I just don't understand the complaints without evidence. If Enstrom gets traded tomorrow for a reasonable price, then boom there's my evidence that Holland isn't doing a good enough job. But there hasn't been a top tier defenseman that I know of that's switched teams that would fill what the Red Wings need other than Suter, I want people to bring up Erhoff, Burns, Carle, Shultz etc., and discuss how those players would make a better Red Wings team in the future, for my angle at least I know those players actually moved to a new team. I understand this is a forum, and this is my defense of Holland. I feel if you criticize someone you should have reasonable reasons as to what he didn't do, rather then he didn't anything. I'm not trying to quell anything, I feel people can criticize Holland for trading for Quincy, signing Ian White, drafting McCollum etc. Because these are things that happened, and we look back on other options and how the franchise would fair with different moves. But just blaming Holland for not doing anything? I just don't understand it, and am posting on the forum to get a better understand of it.

Its unfortunate that they did away with the not like option;)

This. He got Lidstrom-like playing time and put up Kyle Quincey numbers. Actually, Quincey was more productive than him at LA and COL. After sleeping on this, I have little interest. Especially if we had to give up any of the top 4 trade assets normally thrown around (Flip, Franzen, Nyquist, Smith)

To me, this is the heart of it:

I find certain aspects of this topic ironic. Things will get better when the season starts and people have the Wings to pick on, instead of each other.

The one person we're all tiptoeing around naming here is pretty clearly only around to troll. The only type of posts he makes are derogitory towards the Wings, Holland and posters here at LGW. That's what really gets my goat. I'm proud of how many great fans from other teams we have on LGW. Just off the top of my head I can think of posters from the Sharks and Preds community who've come here and made very intelligent, constructive posts while dodging the odd attack here or there based on their obvious love of another team. MacAttack used to post regularly from the position of a win-deprived Leafs fan who respects the Wings. For each of our playoff opponents in recent years I'd say we've had good cross-forum posters who I hope will come back for future games day threads. My point is that those of us who are tired of CentCougar aren't taking that position simply because he's a Wild fan. Edit: does anyone know how I can get the spellcheck functionality built into my Firefox browser to work with the new forums? This is the first time I've had this problem with the current FF.