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Whoever thinks Cleary was a bust probably has zero clue what "bust" means. And is likely equating typical "I hate Dan Cleary" narrative with the concept of being a "bust". Aside from winning a Stanley cup with us he also scored the OT game winner against Anaheim in 2009. Not to mention he had two 20 goal seasons, a 26 goal season and scored more points than Datsyuk did in the playoffs at least 3 different times. Also scored more goals than Zetterberg did in 2011. So it's not even "efforts". He actually produced better than our star players did at times. And not just one time. Multiple times. His last playoffs with the Red Wings was in 2012-2013 where he scored 4 goals and 10 points whereas Dats scored 3 goals 9 points. Both played exactly 14 games. So lol. Can't believe I just had to defend Dan Cleary. He might have been a washed up player for the last 3 or 4 years who no longer belonged in the line up, but the guy was no bust. He made a career here when the Red Wings gave him a chance. And he won a Stanley cup in the process. Not many people in the league can say that about themselves. And not many teams can say that about other players they give opportunities to. Usually when a team gives a chance to a player whose career is falling apart or declining, they end up being a bust. Not Dan Cleary though. That guy ended up winning a Stanley cup, recovering his falling career and went onto play 10 more seasons with a successful franchise.

Excuses. There are trades to be made that would improve the team. It doesn't have to be for a Subban. Anything that makes the team better will do. Considering Holland has made half the trades anyone else has the last several years than NJ and even fewer than the average team has, and the fact that the team has been slipping for the last 5 years while Holland has kept doing the same thing that doesn't work anymore, something needs to change. Either Holland needs to find a way to be more active and be willing to move roster players, or they need to make a change at GM.

And how many Trouba/Barrie/Shattenkirk-level defensemen have been traded in the last 5 years? I'm not just talking Norris candidates, and I don't think Holland is either. Top-pair, or even potential top-pair, defensemen just don't get traded very often. Our trade assets right now are Nyquist/Tatar (maybe both), Smith, and a handful of OK prospects. Hardly anything we should think the rest of the league would be kicking down our door to get. Hockey players aren't currency. They don't have a real value. They're worth whatever the team we're trying to trade with thinks they're worth. It isn't far-fetched at all to think that maybe the few teams who might be offering what we want don't think that what we have to offer is that valuable. And this started with me responding to you saying Holland needs to make an impact trade for a top-pair D. If you want to think smaller than that, I already said I think we should and most likely could do more in that area. But I understand why Holland doesn't want to use our limited assets in deals that probably aren't going to make much difference.

Maybe you're definition of top-tier is just a lot different than mine, because I would highly doubt there are a dozen available. I don't think there's been that many traded in the last 5 years. Not making excuses. Holland has made it pretty clear that he's not looking for those kinds of trades. I think I made it pretty clear that I don't agree with him on that. Just saying I believe him when he says what he's looking for isn't out there.

Well you're forgetting that when he brought Cole and Zidlicky we weren't trying to squeeze into the playoffs, we had a comfortable spot in the playoffs and were looking to make a deep run. It wasn't until the last like 20 or so games that we dropped the ball and kept losing the games. I remember people were calling the Zidlicky and Cole acquisition a curse jokingly. At the time the trade was made, it was actually meaningful and the majority didn't disagree because we we're in a good position. Before deadline we were around 35 - 15 - 11. Well above .500 team. And if I'm not mistaken we were 3rd or 4th in the conference. But after February and after acquiring Zidlicky and Cole, the team hit a slump. Partly because Howard was never the same after injury and that's when Mrazek came in. But even he was super inconsistent and got pulled 4-5 times. We ended the season with a record of 8 - 10 - 3. The problem is Holland gets blamed for a lot of stuff hindsight. But the truth of the matter is Cole and Zidlicky were aquired for a team that was 35 - 15 - 11, one of the top team in the conferences trying to make a legit deep playoff run. Legwand was purely because of the insane amount of injuries and the push for the playoffs. No GM is going to want to have a streak broken. That would be bad business. They make profit off this streak. And at the end of the day it's a business and entails revenue. We as hockey fans want wins, they as management and ownership want $$$$$$$$$ And as it stands if you ain't winning the cup (which is probably the best way to gain revenue), you can still make dough from keeping the streak alive.

Right now, I would give all of Nyquist, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Sproul, pick for a legit top defenseman if that's what it would take.

Legwand deal was to make sure they got into playoffs. I wouldn't blame Holland for Cole deal. Babcock wanted better players. We just got unlucky with Cole's injury.

Lol at Dennis Wideman and Wisnewski

Unless he gets significantly better, if he's the cornerstone of the defense, the team is screwed

I think our team will be slightly better this year although I think other teams in our division got even better, so does that make us worse by comparison? Montreal has made a few acquisitions and have their tender back. Tampa will be as strong as ever Florida is looking deadly Buffalo could probably push for a playoff spot New Jersey looks like they could keep hold of a wildcard spot When I see this stuff I feel like wings are worse only by comparison. I think we gotta hope Boston and the Islanders drop off. Either way I picture us struggling for wildcard spot the same as the last couple of seasons and this year we may not be so lucky.

It starts with roster management by Holland, alleviating some of this log jam. Then it's Blashill's job to ice the right players and find line combos that work. I'm not sure I have full confidence in either right now... The coaching staff looks to be much improved, hopefully they can get the special teams figured out...