Datsyuk Contract Negotiations

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

If datsyuk wants 7 mil , and savard was only wanting 4.5-5mil , i'd take Savard

[sibiriak 84]

-How do you figure? Much better to have no history at all than a history of failure.

-We'll see how it carries over to the big time. Hopefully he continues to do well, but we've seen this act before.

...

Please, it's not a "totally different" game. Tighter checking, more physical, higher intensity and pressure, yeah, but hockey's hockey. Do you really think that his getting better from year to year has been a result of his playoff struggles? It simply takes time to mature into a complete hockey player; as he does that, we hope that playoff success follows.

All that shows (besides very little, a big three years) is that he has gotten better every year he's been in the league. That's pretty normal. He could just as easily have never made it to the playoffs and grown at the same rate.

So, are the playoffs different from the regular season, and Datsyuk's non-performance in them is a huge knock on him, or are the playoffs almost the same as the regular season, and Datysyuk's progress will surely carry over into the playoffs?

I am confused as to what our difference of opinion is. I seem to argue for the same exact point as you do in the latter quote, but against the point that you make in the former quote.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

So, are the playoffs different from the regular season, and Datsyuk's non-performance in them is a huge knock on him, or are the playoffs almost the same as the regular season, and Datysyuk's progress will surely carry over into the playoffs?

False dilemma. The playoffs are different, insofar that they are tighter checking et al, but Datsyuk's maturation as a player exists INDEPENDENTLY of them. Whether or not this will carry over can't be known; his inherent weaknesses--like lack of size and strength--still exist, but he's improved elsewhere. We'll see.

I am confused as to what our difference of opinion is.

That Datsyuk's playoff struggles mean anything to his development and improvement as a player, which you've deemed as a positive, asset, or advantage over someone who hasn't played in the post season (Marc Savard).

[poxer 0]

I already stated what I feel about Hull saying that. I think he was way off based and shouldn't have speculated on something he knows little about. How is Datsyuk not happy? He plays on PP, PK, 5-5, is that not what a player wants?

[sibiriak 84]

False dilemma. The playoffs are different, insofar that they are tighter checking et al, but Datsyuk's maturation as a player exists INDEPENDENTLY of them. Whether or not this will carry over can't be known; his inherent weaknesses--like lack of size and strength--still exist, but he's improved elsewhere. We'll see.

That Datsyuk's playoff struggles mean anything to his development and improvement as a player, which you've deemed as a positive, asset, or advantage over someone who hasn't played in the post season (Marc Savard).

OK, lets list the possibilities.

Case A. Datsyuk's playoff experience/struggles detracts from his development as a player.

I can't imagine what an argumnet supporting that would be.

Case B. Datsyuk's playoff experience made NO impact at all on his developnent as a player.

You are supporting this, right? Do you think he just forgot all about every playoff game he ever played, so it didn't affect his game at all?

Case C. Datsyuk didn't play well in the playoffs, but learned from his mistakes/difficulties, and adjusted his game.

That is what I argue. He played 42 playoff games. That is half a regular seson worth of games. If nothing else, a player with 315 NHL games under his belt, is a little less experienced as a player with 357 of them. And those 42 games are high stakes/high intensity games that arguably would provide one with more challenge and more experience per game then a December game against BJ or Phoenix. Also, the tighter, less strictly refereed playoff games challenge Datsyuk more because of his relatively small size, so he has to develop adjustments that would allow him to compete in that environment. Without actually playing in the playoffs, it would be very difficult to adjust one's game to such style .(BTW, Marc Savard is not big either, so he'd need to make that transition at some point, and without actually experiencing playoff hockey, he'd be hard presed to do that.)

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Case B. Datsyuk's playoff experience made NO impact at all on his developnent as a player.

You are supporting this, right? Do you think he just forgot all about every playoff game he ever played, so it didn't affect his game at all?

Perhaps a very marginal impact. Relatively insignificant, in my view.

Also, the tighter, less strictly refereed playoff games challenge Datsyuk more because of his relatively small size, so he has to develop adjustments that would allow him to compete in that environment. Without actually playing in the playoffs, it would be very difficult to adjust one's game to such style.

Oh, how do you think he's done adjusting? There are far more factors at play than his "adjusting" to previous years' postseason shortcomings. I'd say it's got very little if anything to do with that at all.

(BTW, Marc Savard is not big either, so he'd need to make that transition at some point, and without actually experiencing playoff hockey, he'd be hard presed to do that.)

Every player is different. Marty St. Louis is a tiny guy but he's an old pro at performing in the playoffs.

I kind of got away from my main point in all this, so I'll try and get back to it here: Datsyuk's playoff struggles are still not preferable to Savard's non-experience in this realm. Whatever "adjustments" Pavel has been making, they haven't been terribly effective, and the results (or lack thereof) serve as a black mark thus far on his record. Whatever impact they've had on him as a developing player are marginal. There is not much good to take away from this.

Compared to Savard, who, at worst, is equally ineffective, but is just as likely to be more effective.

[bringback91 2]

Dats will be one of the least of the Wings problems this post season.

[Kp-Wings 3]

If datsyuk wants 7 mil , and savard was only wanting 4.5-5mil , i'd take Savard

It's a different story though. Datsyuk and Savard were free agents at different times. And even if they were free agents at the same time, Holland still would have taken Datsyuk. He's not one of these GM's that's just going to cut players off just like that. You and I both know it.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

I would take Savard over Dats anyday. Who cares if he hasnt played any games in the playoffs, Dats has and hasnt done ANYTHING, he cant take the pressure or the physical play that comes with the playoffs. If he doesnt play well this spring, i say cut him loose - he would fit well in Wash. with Ovechkin, then he would never have to worry about the playoffs anyways.

[sibiriak 84]

I would take Savard over Dats anyday. Who cares if he hasnt played any games in the playoffs, Dats has and hasnt done ANYTHING, he cant take the pressure or the physical play that comes with the playoffs. If he doesnt play well this spring, i say cut him loose - he would fit well in Wash. with Ovechkin, then he would never have to worry about the playoffs anyways.

Savard is 5'10''. Is there a reason to think that he will be so much better than Datsyuk in handling "the pressure or the physical play that comes with the playoffs"?

[Covenant 0]

Datsyuk, playoffs nonwithstanding, is one of the top 10 forwards in the league bar none.. just my opinion. With a healthy Zetterberg i'd even venture to say that line is probably the most dangerous out of any line. Including Heatley's, Cheecho, Afinogenov, Hossa, etc. etc. If there is any possible way of backloading a contract a/la the NFL to fit under the current cap, I think Kenny should pull the trigger. He's so damned exciting to watch. And, is it just me.. or is the little guy turning into a little scrapper on the boards the last month or so.. playing a bit physical!

*I'm sure I goofed on some European names, forgive the Covenant.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Covenant

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Datsyuk, playoffs nonwithstanding, is one of the top 10 forwards in the league bar none.. just my opinion. With a healthy Zetterberg i'd even venture to say that line is probably the most dangerous out of any line. Including Heatley's, Cheecho, Afinogenov, Hossa, etc. etc. If there is any possible way of backloading a contract a/la the NFL to fit under the current cap, I think Kenny should pull the trigger. He's so damned exciting to watch. And, is it just me.. or is the little guy turning into a little scrapper on the boards the last month or so.. playing a bit physical!

*I'm sure I goofed on some European names, forgive the Covenant.

I agree with everything you said. But seeing as how they work so well with each other and produce about the same and thrive even when alone, their salaries should show that also.

[sibiriak 84]

I agree with everything you said. But seeing as how they work so well with each other and produce about the same and thrive even when alone, their salaries should show that also.

Zetterberg is signed at his current bargain salary for another 2 years. How do you expect the parity with Datsyk's salary to come about?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Failure is relative. Without getting to the old debate, your name on the Cup stays, and the stats are forgotten. Datsyuk wasn't the only one straggling in the last 3 playoffs, and his "failure" is mostly in not reaching the very high expectations of Detroit fans. On any other team, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I understand your scepticism, although I don't share it. In any case, it looks like any further contract talks will take place after the playoffs are over, and Datsyuk's playoff performance will factor in, surely. For the purposes of comparison between Dats and Savard, as of this moment, it wouldn't be fair (to say the least) to include the postulated future playoff failure into the comparison based on the present day data. How do you know, maybe Savard will suck in the playoffs, whenever the Bruins make them.

I'd guess that Yzerman and Shanahan departure has reduced the merchandize sales, or shifted them to the new heroes. If you can attend the games at the Joe regularly (since I don't live close to Detroit), you can tell me, whose jerseys are showing up in the stands now in relatively greater quantity? Would I be correct in assuming more #40, #13, and #44 showing up than before?

It's not a matter of how much money the team makes overall. It's a matter of how much more money they'd make because they sign this or that player. It is difficult to measure, yet the GM must have at least some estimate, before offering a contract.

EDIT-spelling.

So much arguing over such a simple subject.

Dats is gonna get paid. Maybe not by Detroit but somebody is gonna pay him.

However, there aren't many teams out there that would give him 7 million dollars based on his statistics. He's good but he's not that good....yet. When he puts up consecutive 90-100 point seasons he can start commanding 7-8 million.

What can Detroit pay him? If he kicks serious ass in the playoffs, maybe 6-5 mil. If he blows in the playoffs again they'll probably let him sign somewhere else because they aren't going to pay him that kind of money. However, somebody will, it just won't be in the 7-8 range.

Merchandise and rings and all that is just stuff. In the cap era players are gonna get paid for the numbers they put up. They're going to get paid even more if they can continue to put up those numbers in the postseason.

And one thing is always for certain, a struggling team with cap space will always outbid the hometown team.

IMO, regardless of Dats' playoff performance THIS season, he'll likely get a 5.5-6.5 contract from Detroit. I don't care if he wins the friggin Conn Smyth that's prolly where he's going to top out.

The only thing I see happening is a bottom feeder or on the cusp team paying him 6 to 6.7 or so for a year more than what the Wings would offer.

PS: I had a crazy dream the other night that I woke up to see that the Wings had just traded Lidstrom before the playoffs. Now I know the deadline is passed and all but the dream (or nightmare) was that we dealt Nick to San Jose for Carle and another unknown player so we'd have the money to pay Datsyuk 8 million.

I don't know what else to read into that other than Dats is probably gone after this season. I hope he stays but i'm giving it 50/50 at best right now.

True. To speculate that the huge +/- disparity (+33 to -18) is merely due to the respective teams they play for is absurd, IMO.

Of course it isn't the only factor but it does play a huge part.

Look at Calder, he's a -31 this year prior to coming to Detroit.

If you were to have him play at his current rate for roughly 60 games with Detroit, he'd be a +20, that's a 51 point spread. Obviously Calder is still the same player, no? The fact that he went from Philly to Detroit in this case is a huge indicator of how +/- can be skewed by the team you play for.

That being said, I don't watch Savard so I don't know him, he could very well suck defensively. I wouldn't know but I also would take that number with a grain of salt due to the team he plays for.

[dicksmack 33]

I don't watch Savard so I don't know him, he could very well suck defensively. I wouldn't know but I also would take that number with a grain of salt due to the team he plays for.

That's fine, as well you should, but my point was that Eva had totally dismissed a large disparity in +/- as being solely accounted for the team the guy plays for. That's too blind an assumption. Is Savard on the PK? I haven't seen him play much but if he is, that would tend to indicate that he might compare well with Pavel defensively. Pavel also has that high RTSS stat of being good at stealing pucks (take aways). Given similar offensive #'s, the guy who is a better all-around player shoud make more.

[kozac 10]

I just don't understand people that think datsyuk is small and weak. He's 5-11, not 5-7 for christ sakes. And have you actually watched him play this season? Didn't he get the check of the game that time against Nashville i think? He can take the physicall play.

I wish all this bs talk would stop untill the end of the playoffs.

[eva unit zero 271]

I have to agree, I'm not a math major either, but my calculator says that you are correct.

Dats has better GPG, APG, and PPG.

Hm...I seem to have been in error.

Regardless, the offensive difference is negligible. Savard has not been a first line center for as much a portion of his career as Dats has, as a result of being buried in New York and Calgary.

As for plus-minus, Dats is 0.36 per game better than Savard. That is more than offset by the differences in teams.

Plus, this is the first season Dats has been even REMOTELY good defensively.

As far as PK is concerned, Dats sees less than two minutes per game, while Savard sees about 20 seconds. So both players see an occasional shift of PK duty, but neither is a staple of the unit. Hardly conclusive.

Boston's top 5 PK forwards are Axelsson, Bergeron, Sturm, Donovan, and Mowers. All of those guys are better PKers than Datsyuk, so that's a pretty inconclusive argument.

And just for the record, in 2005-06 in Atlanta Savard saw about a minute of PK time, while Dats saw only 16 seconds per game that season. Does that mean that up until this year Savard was the better defensive player?

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Although I wanted Datsyuk to be traded for quite some time, if Datsyuk does do well in the playoffs and can show that he can lead this team then I would happily have him back for somewhere around 5 million

[Icteria virens 11]

Hm...I seem to have been in error.

Plus, this is the first season Dats has been even REMOTELY good defensively.

I strongly disagree. I've always seen him backcheck and be responsible defensively no mater what the circumstance.

Does anybody remember when we played the Left Wing Lock and all the lines would play the sytem perfectly except the Larionov line? Igor would always be the "lock" on his line b/c Russian centers were taught to be responsible defensively and hold back. He was used to this and would allow his LW to stay up after talking about this with the coaching staff. I've seen this same style many times from Datsyuk.

Kind of funny but when a lockerroom full of your teammates see you having fluid drained from your thigh so that you can play in the PO's you get respect, even if you don't go out and score a goal but a bunch of ppl sitting behind computer screens can mock you all day. Interesting.

[Lidstromrules16 7]

I think that problem with Dats is he seems to be weak on his skates. He seems like a strong man, he just lacks balance at times. Thus he will sometimes fall because of a little bump, but other times, he can get a hard bump and not fall.

[eva unit zero 271]

I strongly disagree. I've always seen him backcheck and be responsible defensively no mater what the circumstance.

Does anybody remember when we played the Left Wing Lock and all the lines would play the sytem perfectly except the Larionov line? Igor would always be the "lock" on his line b/c Russian centers were taught to be responsible defensively and hold back. He was used to this and would allow his LW to stay up after talking about this with the coaching staff. I've seen this same style many times from Datsyuk.

Kind of funny but when a lockerroom full of your teammates see you having fluid drained from your thigh so that you can play in the PO's you get respect, even if you don't go out and score a goal but a bunch of ppl sitting behind computer screens can mock you all day. Interesting.

Datsyuk has always left something to be desired defensively, until this season. He did not improve much defensively over his first couple seaons, and his ice time was limited in the 2002 playoffs BECAUSE of his defense, or lack thereof.

My comparison of Dats vs Savard should be looked at as such:

Who is performing better offensively? Savard.

Who is performing better defensively? Datsyuk.

Savard is performing slightly better offensively. Datsyuk is performing slightly better defensively. Is Datsyuk better enough defensively to not only make up the offensive shortcoming, but to justify an extra 1-2 million? I don't buy it.

They're practically the same player in terms of performance. They should be paid similar amounts.

[sibiriak 84]

Hm...I seem to have been in error.

Regardless, the offensive difference is negligible. Savard has not been a first line center for as much a portion of his career as Dats has, as a result of being buried in New York and Calgary.

As for plus-minus, Dats is 0.36 per game better than Savard. That is more than offset by the differences in teams.

Plus, this is the first season Dats has been even REMOTELY good defensively.

As far as PK is concerned, Dats sees less than two minutes per game, while Savard sees about 20 seconds. So both players see an occasional shift of PK duty, but neither is a staple of the unit. Hardly conclusive.

Boston's top 5 PK forwards are Axelsson, Bergeron, Sturm, Donovan, and Mowers. All of those guys are better PKers than Datsyuk, so that's a pretty inconclusive argument.

And just for the record, in 2005-06 in Atlanta Savard saw about a minute of PK time, while Dats saw only 16 seconds per game that season. Does that mean that up until this year Savard was the better defensive player?

Datsyuk has always left something to be desired defensively, until this season. He did not improve much defensively over his first couple seaons, and his ice time was limited in the 2002 playoffs BECAUSE of his defense, or lack thereof.

My comparison of Dats vs Savard should be looked at as such:

Who is performing better offensively? Savard.

Who is performing better defensively? Datsyuk.

Savard is performing slightly better offensively. Datsyuk is performing slightly better defensively. Is Datsyuk better enough defensively to not only make up the offensive shortcoming, but to justify an extra 1-2 million? I don't buy it.

They're practically the same player in terms of performance. They should be paid similar amounts.

As far as +/- is concern, Datsyuk has +36 in 77 GP, when Savard has -19 in 80 GP. If you prorate to 80 GP, Datsyuk has 0.705 better +/-per game, not 0.36. To see the scale, Tomas Vanek, who leads the NHL in +/-, is better than Savard by 0.77 per game. So 0.705 per game is NOT a trivial difference.

Datsyk is 3rd in the NHL among forwards in +/-, and Savard is 3rd from the bottom among Boston forwards. Again, that is not a trivial difference. If Savard was at least close to leading his team in +/-, then your argument about the difference in teams would have been valid. But he isn't.

Last season, Datsyuk was 14th in takaways and 13th in +/- among all NHL forwards. This year he is 1st and 3rd respectively. He is better than last season, but 13th among all forwards wasn't no slouch either. Seems, Datsyuk was fairly good defensively last year as well.

I agree, that PK time stat has to be taken in context, and can't be directly compared.

To summarize, their offensive stats are close, but in the defense department Datsyuk is head and shoulders above Savard.

[Pskov Wings Fan 71]

As far as PK is concerned, Dats sees less than two minutes per game, while Savard sees about 20 seconds. So both layers see an occasional shift of PK duty, but neither is a staple of the unit. Hardly conclusive.

Not quite true about the occasional PK shift. Dats takes a shift with Flip on pretty much every PK, except 5 on 3.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think that problem with Dats is he seems to be weak on his skates. He seems like a strong man, he just lacks balance at times. Thus he will sometimes fall because of a little bump, but other times, he can get a hard bump and not fall.

I don't think Dats is weak on his skates. I think its more of the fact that he's always making some crazy move that gets him knocked down so easily. Think about it, all his jukes and moves are so nimble and he's so agile he's practically tip-toeing around out there and when somebody gives you a shot or a shove and you are a player like Dats making a move you're probably going to get knocked down because its not the same thing as being Homer and digging in right in front of the crease. So its a double-edge sword for Dats as we need him to be his creative self. However, given that its not been working for him a player of Dats' calibre ought to realize what's going on and adjust. Dats can be very hard to knock off the puck. IMO, he could probably blow past many defenders because they expect him to make moves at the line and not go wide with speed. He needs to learn that instead of making a crazy move on somebody he ought to put his head down and drive wide and just lay a centering pass into the slot and hope for rebounds. I'd take that anyday in the playoffs over Dats getting stood up at the line or getting double teamed and knocked down along the boards.

He's got to find a way to adjust his game come playoff time. He can't just dipsy doodle all over the place. He's got too big a bullseye on him and in the playoffs you can't be an effective player if you're constantly picking yourself up off the ice which has been his case for the past couple years.

[dicksmack 33]

Another thing to factor in is the fact that more goals are scored in the East--it's no accident that of the top 10 scorers overall, 8 are from the Eastern Conference, and 14 of the top 20. You might take 6-10 pts. off of Savard's numbers proportional to the goal disparity b/w the conferences. Pavel would pot 10 more points in the East, you'd think...

We might find out next year if we don't sign him.

Also, hockey is a form of entertainment, like all sports; Pavel can entertain like few can in this league--what's that worth. I'm waiting for someone to say "how entertaining is it to see your team bounced from the playoffs". Well it's more than one individual's play that get's a team eliminated.