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Downey or Sopel?


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#41 OsGOD

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 08:23 AM

QUOTE(FinRedWing @ September 20, 2007 - 09:12AM) View Post

What happened to your dream of Wings having 20 defensemen?

well very true... i am swaying from my dream a bit.... but if sopel will drop em on a regular basis then he would fit in my dream.



Just one chance is all i ever wanted...just one time i'd like to win the game...from now on i'll take the chance if i can have it...just one just one

#42 Vancouver Wings Fan

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 09:27 AM

QUOTE(Saran @ September 19, 2007 - 10:39PM) View Post

haha my exact feelings. I'm from BC so Canucks games are always on and what not and yeah, he sucks a lot and is a huge defense liability. I mean if he's a reject Canuck, why would we want him crazy.gif


Seems all Wings fans living here in BC think the same! Sopel sucks and was not wanted on a team like the Canucks after being released from LA.......The Wings don't need him!

If Downey is the only availible answer for a perceived "enforcer" then bring him in...I'd still like to see a more threatening enforcer....the kind that really doesn't need to do much because the threat is enough....



#43 sticknmove

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 11:41 AM

"If Downey is the only availible answer for a perceived "enforcer" then bring him in...I'd still like to see a more threatening enforce"

I definitly hear what you are saying, and you make a good point. But i mean, Holland and enforcers.....Come on, when I heard Downeys name attached with "possible spot" I almost pissed my pants. I guess all i am saying is Downey is as enforcer as we are going to get going to get around here as long as present mgmt is around, and I am quite content with it that way. He does lose some fights I will give you that, but t that will happen, losing some fights, when you're job is policing a NHL squad night after night......


Actually f*ck it, lets buy out Laraque.

Edited by sticknmove, 20 September 2007 - 11:43 AM.

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#44 norrisnick

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE(sticknmove @ September 20, 2007 - 06:48AM) View Post

"We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will."

I beg to differ:

"Here's an exerp from a Dave Schultz interview, the "Hammer" was part of the 2 time stanley cup Champion Philadelphia Flyers in the 70's. The whole Broad Street Bully thing, anyways;

***DISCLOSURE: What do enforcers enforce?
SCHULTZ: Well they basically protect their teammates.
DISCLOSURE: Explain to me when you played. You are out on the ice, or you’re on the bench, and you see a player take a shot at one of the stars on your team. What goes through your mind when you see that happen on the ice?
SCHULTZ: If that guy wants to do that kind of violent act, let him face the music. It’s called a fistfight. We’ve been doing this since the beginning of time. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ fistfight … they knew I would be coming after them and they had to fight.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on, here is an exept from an interview with Stan Fischler, hockey historian and author of more than 100 books on the game;
***Let’s talk about the role of enforcers – what do the enforcers enforce?
The evolution of the enforcers is very simple – there was no such thing as an enforcer, or a goon, or whatever synonym you want for these hockey cops until the 60’s.

At the start of the 1960’s, the Montreal Canadiens were the best team in hockey. They won five cups in a row. Rocket Richard retired in 1960 after the fifth cup was won, and the Canadiens were a less tough team without the Rocket.

They went into the playoffs against the Chicago Blackhawks, who were a very tough team, and they beat the crap out of them physically. Jack Evans was one of the tough defenseman – he ran at Jean Belleveau, who was the lynchpin for the Canadiens, and lo and behold, the Blackhawks beat them and went on to win the Stanley Cup.

So other teams looked at the Blackhawks and said ‘hey this team won, they play tough hockey’. So they started to ape the champion. And the manager of the Montreal Canadiens saw his guy, Jean Belleveau, get beat up and said ‘well, I got to get myself a tough guy’.

So John Ferguson, playing for Cleveland – best fighter in the American Hockey League – he gets John Ferguson – his job is to protect Belleveau, Jeffrey and the other stylists.

What do you think Ferguson does? The first game the Canadians play – they are playing the Boston Bruins, the big bad Bruins. Ted Green is their tough guy – he does a beeline, beats the crap out of Green, and all of a sudden this guy has a job. He could also play hockey and at the same time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINUED

***Some people say fighting is part of hockey – why is fighting part of hockey?
Fighting is part of hockey because hockey is the most difficult game to officiate. It always has been. You’ve got guys colliding all the time and the referee can’t see everything. So if one guy pops the other one in the mouth and the ref doesn’t see it – no penalty is called. And that’s why fights start. It’s just like if you are walking down the street and some guy whacks you – you’re going to whack him back if there is no cop there. You’re not going to say – ‘oh thank you very much for whacking me’. You’re going to whack him and say ‘what the hell is this? Are you hitting me? Are you crazy?’ That’s what happens in hockey all the time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**An section from a piece written by Bill Meltzer on hockey and the role a true "enforcer" plays and just how important it is to a teams chemistry.
"I don't think most opponents (at least not good teams) have ever been intimidated merely by the presence of anyone else's enforcer-- even the likes of Bob Probert.

But having a good enforcer makes the other team know they'll be held accountable for their actions. The enforcer helps establish a foundation for team toughness; much as having a good second line center establishes a foundation for scoring depth. That's absolutely crucial, because unless there's a team-wide commitment to sticking up for one another, you could have the nastiest, toughest enforcer in the league and it still won't make any difference."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So back to what I was saying earlier, the roll of an enforcer is a incredibly important one when putting together a hockey team. And even though we dont have Probert anymore, we would still benefit greatly from having a policeman watching our guys backs, and while we are talking about Probert let me take this oppertunity to point out he was arguably the greatest "enforcer" the game of hockey has ever seen, so no, Downey isnt, and Norton didnt fill his shoes to the extent some of you expected, but they are doing their jobs just like Dats and Lidstrom and they do it well so at least respect them and what they bring to a team. Soooooo, that is that, I am off to get a MEECH tattoo on my chest, GOD HE IS GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR!

lol, im just kidding, i'm out, hope you all have a good day!


You beg to differ, but you clearly didn't understand what I wrote. And really, the quotes you laid out there don't really counter what I wrote either.

Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react. And reacting won't matter either, because as I stated in my post the types of guys that go out there running anyone and everyone and don't care whether they do so within the bounds of the rule book, also don't care whether there is an enforcer on the other side.

A question for you. A couple days ago we played the Wild. Boogaard took a massive run at Downey well behind the play and had he caught him flush likely would have taken his head off (luckily Booger is a tad slow and even Downey is quicker). What pray tell would it take to keep Boogaard honest? Giving Cheli a concealed carry license so he can take his shifts packing a .45? Boogaard obviously doesn't care who is out there. The only thing a fight would do is keep him off the ice for 5 minutes, but as it stands his own coach would do that anyway as he only takes 2 shifts a period or so.

Or Avery? He doesn't care. Ruutu? Doesn't care. Tootoo? Doesn't care. Marchment never cared. Lemieux never cared. Ulf never cared. Etc... The guys that teams need to worry about, either don't mind fighting or will duck fights anyway.

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#45 sticknmove

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 03:59 PM

"Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react."

You cannot seriously tell me you do not think that enforcers have any power of deterence whatsoever. I know they cant, and dont deter everything, or even a majority of it, but you would have to be out of your mind to believe they have no preventative influence whatsoever.
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#46 norrisnick

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE(sticknmove @ September 20, 2007 - 03:59PM) View Post

"Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react."

You cannot seriously tell me you do not think that enforcers have any power of deterence whatsoever. I know they cant, and dont deter everything, or even a majority of it, but you would have to be out of your mind to believe they have no preventative influence whatsoever.


Not enough to validate the existence of a fighter that can't play the game of hockey. Now if a guy can take a regular shift, not be a defensive nightmare, and not be afraid of the puck by all means sign and use the guy. Provided of course he's a better hockey player than at least one of the other 18 skaters we've got slated for the active roster.

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#47 Barnes52

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 04:20 PM

we're talking about 4th line minutes here guys. If Downey can play his 8-10 minutes a night, perhaps alternate with Ellis, why not? 14 forwards/7 defensmen. The 2 extra are Eliis and Downey, buh-bye Grigs

#48 norrisnick

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE(Barnes52 @ September 20, 2007 - 04:20PM) View Post

we're talking about 4th line minutes here guys. If Downey can play his 8-10 minutes a night, perhaps alternate with Ellis, why not? 14 forwards/7 defensmen. The 2 extra are Eliis and Downey, buh-bye Grigs

Who sits for Ellis and Downey? Maltby, Drake, or Kopecky? The answer? No one. So if they don't play, they're beyond worthless, so you might as well hang on to Igor and whip him into shape. Losing Grigorenko back to Russia so Aaron F'n Downey can sit in the stands would be monumentally stupid.

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#49 sticknmove

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 08:02 PM

Norris you seem to be oblivious to the fact that enforcers are going to be as agile and outskill a 1st, or 2nd liner. That is not what they bring to the table, they specialize in another part of the game, the physical side, which includes limited minutes and a lot of the time a scrap or two which wether you like to admit it or not, is a HUGE element in North American Hockey. So for you to proclaim this and that about the finesse side of the game from a teams respected tough guy is equivlent to me saing Datsuk has no business on this team b/c he cant square off with Colton Orr and hold his own. To much of one thing is never good, that is a universal rule that rings true a high majority of the time. A great team needs all the elements of the game, in a balance that allows them to dominate every aspect.
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#50 eva unit zero

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE(sticknmove @ September 20, 2007 - 07:48AM) View Post
"We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will."

I beg to differ:

"Here's an exerp from a Dave Schultz interview, the "Hammer" was part of the 2 time stanley cup Champion Philadelphia Flyers in the 70's. The whole Broad Street Bully thing, anyways;

***DISCLOSURE: What do enforcers enforce?
SCHULTZ: Well they basically protect their teammates.
DISCLOSURE: Explain to me when you played. You are out on the ice, or you’re on the bench, and you see a player take a shot at one of the stars on your team. What goes through your mind when you see that happen on the ice?
SCHULTZ: If that guy wants to do that kind of violent act, let him face the music. It’s called a fistfight. We’ve been doing this since the beginning of time. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ fistfight … they knew I would be coming after them and they had to fight.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on, here is an exept from an interview with Stan Fischler, hockey historian and author of more than 100 books on the game;


***Let’s talk about the role of enforcers • what do the enforcers enforce?
The evolution of the enforcers is very simple • there was no such thing as an enforcer, or a goon, or whatever synonym you want for these hockey cops until the 60’s.

At the start of the 1960’s, the Montreal Canadiens were the best team in hockey. They won five cups in a row. Rocket Richard retired in 1960 after the fifth cup was won, and the Canadiens were a less tough team without the Rocket.

They went into the playoffs against the Chicago Blackhawks, who were a very tough team, and they beat the crap out of them physically. Jack Evans was one of the tough defenseman • he ran at Jean Belleveau, who was the lynchpin for the Canadiens, and lo and behold, the Blackhawks beat them and went on to win the Stanley Cup.

So other teams looked at the Blackhawks and said ‘hey this team won, they play tough hockey’. So they started to ape the champion. And the manager of the Montreal Canadiens saw his guy, Jean Belleveau, get beat up and said ‘well, I got to get myself a tough guy’.

So John Ferguson, playing for Cleveland • best fighter in the American Hockey League • he gets John Ferguson • his job is to protect Belleveau, Jeffrey and the other stylists.

What do you think Ferguson does? The first game the Canadians play • they are playing the Boston Bruins, the big bad Bruins. Ted Green is their tough guy • he does a beeline, beats the crap out of Green, and all of a sudden this guy has a job. He could also play hockey and at the same time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINUED

***Some people say fighting is part of hockey • why is fighting part of hockey?
Fighting is part of hockey because hockey is the most difficult game to officiate. It always has been. You’ve got guys colliding all the time and the referee can’t see everything. So if one guy pops the other one in the mouth and the ref doesn’t see it • no penalty is called. And that’s why fights start. It’s just like if you are walking down the street and some guy whacks you • you’re going to whack him back if there is no cop there. You’re not going to say • ‘oh thank you very much for whacking me’. You’re going to whack him and say ‘what the hell is this? Are you hitting me? Are you crazy?’ That’s what happens in hockey all the time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**An section from a piece written by Bill Meltzer on hockey and the role a true "enforcer" plays and just how important it is to a teams chemistry.



"I don't think most opponents (at least not good teams) have ever been intimidated merely by the presence of anyone else's enforcer-- even the likes of Bob Probert.

But having a good enforcer makes the other team know they'll be held accountable for their actions. The enforcer helps establish a foundation for team toughness; much as having a good second line center establishes a foundation for scoring depth. That's absolutely crucial, because unless there's a team-wide commitment to sticking up for one another, you could have the nastiest, toughest enforcer in the league and it still won't make any difference."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So back to what I was saying earlier, the roll of an enforcer is a incredibly important one when putting together a hockey team. And even though we dont have Probert anymore, we would still benefit greatly from having a policeman watching our guys backs, and while we are talking about Probert let me take this oppertunity to point out he was arguably the greatest "enforcer" the game of hockey has ever seen, so no, Downey isnt, and Norton didnt fill his shoes to the extent some of you expected, but they are doing their jobs just like Dats and Lidstrom and they do it well so at least respect them and what they bring to a team. Soooooo, that is that, I am off to get a MEECH tattoo on my chest, GOD HE IS GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR!

lol, im just kidding, i'm out, hope you all have a good day!




Ferguson scored 145 goals in 500 games, including a 29 goal season. Probert's best season was also a 29-goal year. Downey will likely score fewer than 29 goals total when his career is over. Probert and Ferguson were far better PLAYERS than Downey, just from a skil standpoint. Not to mention that they were significantly better FIGHTERS as well. Downey offers nothing to justify his presence on the team over a Kopecky, Drake, Maltby, Grigorenko, etc.



QUOTE(sticknmove @ September 20, 2007 - 09:02PM) View Post
Norris you seem to be oblivious to the fact that enforcers are going to be as agile and outskill a 1st, or 2nd liner. That is not what they bring to the table, they specialize in another part of the game, the physical side, which includes limited minutes and a lot of the time a scrap or two which wether you like to admit it or not, is a HUGE element in North American Hockey. So for you to proclaim this and that about the finesse side of the game from a teams respected tough guy is equivlent to me saing Datsuk has no business on this team b/c he cant square off with Colton Orr and hold his own. To much of one thing is never good, that is a universal rule that rings true a high majority of the time. A great team needs all the elements of the game, in a balance that allows them to dominate every aspect.




A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on the Wings. It's these guys who CAN'T play hockey at the NHL level and are only marginal fighters (Downey, Norton, Bootland) that people are going ga-ga over that is getting the 'hell no' response from people like myself and NN.


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#51 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 20, 2007 - 09:41PM) View Post

A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on the Wings. It's these guys who CAN'T play hockey at the NHL level and are only marginal fighters (Downey, Norton, Bootland) that people are going ga-ga over that is getting the 'hell no' response from people like myself and NN.


Yepp, Downey cant play hockey rolleyes.gif

Explain to me then, how come he got drafted into the NHL? Usually people with "no-skill" as you like to say, dont get drafted. So, explain it to me, how come Downey got drafted if he was a "useless" guy who "cant play hockey"?

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#52 eva unit zero

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 08:30 PM

QUOTE(Detroit # 1 Fan @ September 20, 2007 - 09:16PM) View Post


Yepp, Downey cant play hockey rolleyes.gif

Explain to me then, how come he got drafted into the NHL? Usually people with "no-skill" as you like to say, dont get drafted. So, explain it to me, how come Downey got drafted if he was a "useless" guy who "cant play hockey"?




Eric Lecompte, Terry Ryan, Brad Church, Kevin Grimes. What do these guys have in common? They are all enforcer-types drafted in the first round in the 90s. And they have a total of ten NHL games played between them. Lecompte is the only one who played professionally last season, and he last played in North America in 1999. Just to show that the draft is not a be-all end-all. Oh, and Downey was never drafted.


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#53 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 08:32 PM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 20, 2007 - 10:00PM) View Post

Eric Lecompte, Terry Ryan, Brad Church, Kevin Grimes. What do these guys have in common? They are all enforcer-types drafted in the first round in the 90s. And they have a total of ten NHL games played between them. Lecompte is the only one who played professionally last season, and he last played in North America in 1999. Just to show that the draft is not a be-all end-all. Oh, and Downey was never drafted.


There you go eva, you won the arguement. I dont even care anymore, you think Downey is s***, I think he's a gritty energy guy. Im done.

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#54 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 07:58 AM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 20, 2007 - 09:11PM) View Post

Ferguson scored 145 goals in 500 games, including a 29 goal season. Probert's best season was also a 29-goal year. Downey will likely score fewer than 29 goals total when his career is over. Probert and Ferguson were far better PLAYERS than Downey, just from a skil standpoint. Not to mention that they were significantly better FIGHTERS as well. Downey offers nothing to justify his presence on the team over a Kopecky, Drake, Maltby, Grigorenko, etc.




A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on the Wings. It's these guys who CAN'T play hockey at the NHL level and are only marginal fighters (Downey, Norton, Bootland) that people are going ga-ga over that is getting the 'hell no' response from people like myself and NN.



"A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on teh Wings."

Eva, that's quite possibly a winner for dumbest statement of 2007. So are you telling me you're holding out against bringing in a fighter-type player until one comes along that has unbelievable skating speed, is a top-notch penalty killer, a leader on and off the ice and capable of scoring 20 goals?

It's one thing not to like fighters because you think they can't play. Its another to associate hockey ability purely with offensive production. We're both stats people but sometimes you're a stats geek and you need to get out of your basement and go have some human interaction. The guy can skate, he's a very solid hitter. Do you remember the clip of him drilling Aaron Ward and putting him on his ass? Ward's a nice 6-2, 225 and Downey sent him flying.

Downey
Offensive Production - are we kidding here, why on earth would we even discuss this aspect of his game

The other stuff
-good skater, every bit as good as Chris Neil
-good hitter, makes a point of hitting everybody in a different sweater
-good fighter, can hold his own against 95% of heavyweights and lower in the league

Downey isn't going to put up any kind of production numbers. Much like George Parros or Colton Orr or Stortini or DJ King aren't going to either. They contribute in other ways to balance out a team.

When will you get that?
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#55 Opie

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 08:40 AM

Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup.
Gordie: you and I have accepted each others opinions and while we don't see eye to eye, I think we have gone as far as we can with this argument. So this post is not in retort to yours.
This team needs another top 6 forward badly.
Apparently that is not going to happen anytime soon, so therefore I worry about scoring goals. Dats and Z cannot score 70+ goals a piece, so when you take a guy out of the line up to put in a Downey you are taking away even more goals from this team.
I don't want to speak for Eva or NN, however I think we are all saying that this team needs to put pucks in the back of the net more than they need an enforcer right now.
Now if that enforcer could bring 10-15 goals or maybe 20pts I would be happy as hell to have them on the team. Downey does not provide that.
The Red Wings need a top six forward. Almost the entire second line is gone. People may have thought Lang to be lazy and suck, however he scored goals and got assists, to the tune of 52 points. Those points need to be replaced and Downey will not help that. I would love to think that Huds, Grigs, Flip, and Mule will be able to do that, but they haven't proven they will.
So my thought process is this:
For this team this year right now scoring goals is more important than exacting revenge for a dirty hit.
I understand the argument that a dirty hit could very well cost the wings Z or Dats. However I don't think Downey is going to stop Tootoo or Hartnell, etc. from taking that shot. Look at Boogard did Downey slow him down at all the other night? Nope, not one bit.

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#56 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:00 AM

Opie, what about the idea that having Downey or a Downey like player creates space for other players to score goals. What about having a guy who goes full tilt at opposing dmen and can soften them up with big hits leading to turnovers which can generate goals? My favoritism with Downey has alot to do with his ability to skate. You take a guy like Boogaard or Laraque and Downey will skate circles around them. He moves around the ice well enough to create havoc and that could lead to goals in an indirect way. Do you see that as plausible at all?

As for the top 6 forward, I couldn't agree more. However, we aren't going to get a top 6 forward anytime soon. Secondly, the 12th/13th forward on the roster being Downey or the "other guy", exactly how much production are you expecting out of this "other guy" on the 4th line?

Is having a player who might look like this (goals/assists/points) 5-8-13 bringing more to the table than Downey who might look like this 1-3-4-120 PIMS?

Not having enough top 6 forwards isn't a problem you can solve by having another 4th line forward who may score a couple more goals than Downey IMO.

Given the state of affairs i'm of the opinion that since you cannot solve the issue of a top 6 forward right now you must look at other issues. One glaring issue is that 29 other teams can fight and this team cannot. We have an opportunity to add Downey to the lineup to help solve that problem. The opportunity cost here isn't the expense of a ton of goals or production from the top 6, its for a mediocre and quite probable miniscule increase in production that probably doesn't make any difference whilst still leaving us with a glaring hole in the toughness department.

However I don't think Downey is going to stop Tootoo or Hartnell, etc. from taking that shot. Look at Boogard did Downey slow him down at all the other night? Nope, not one bit.
[/quote]


Opie, instead of fighting the argument that Downey can stop other players from running our guys, which i'm in total agreement with you that he cannot do that. Instead of focusing on that as a point for your argument. Why not be open minded and look at Downey as being the type of player that can take runs at the oppositions best players and dish out a little punishment? It seems to me that nobody should have a problem with a Redwings players going full tilt at the other teams' best guys.

Edited by GordieSid&Ted, 21 September 2007 - 10:01 AM.

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#57 Opie

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE(GordieSid&Ted @ September 21, 2007 - 02:57PM) View Post

Opie, what about the idea that having Downey or a Downey like player creates space for other players to score goals. What about having a guy who goes full tilt at opposing dmen and can soften them up with big hits leading to turnovers which can generate goals? My favoritism with Downey has alot to do with his ability to skate. You take a guy like Boogaard or Laraque and Downey will skate circles around them. He moves around the ice well enough to create havoc and that could lead to goals in an indirect way. Do you see that as plausible at all?
I agree this could help, but can't a guy already on the roster like say Cleary, Drake do this? Plus who is he creating space on the ice for, Drake? Maltby? Will Malts really be able to go back to that 3 year stretch were he was scoring goals and making plays?

As for the top 6 forward, I couldn't agree more. However, we aren't going to get a top 6 forward anytime soon. Secondly, the 12th/13th forward on the roster being Downey or the "other guy", exactly how much production are you expecting out of this "other guy" on the 4th line?
My problem is that Downey would be taking a spot away from someone who is going to grab upwards of 20 points.(maybe not Kopecky not sure what he will provide, but at some time you have to use your youth.) Except of course if he takes Maltby's spot. Which I would have no problem with, however that is not how it is going to happen. I posted about a month ago or so that I see Maltby as an expendable player with who was brought in and who is waiting in the wings.

Is having a player who might look like this (goals/assists/points) 5-8-13 bringing more to the table than Downey who might look like this 1-3-4-120 PIMS?
Well that all depends is that 5-8-13 player Drake or Kopecky or ???? in that case Drake or Kopecky may have 50-60 PIMS in the role that Babs wants to use them for.

Not having enough top 6 forwards isn't a problem you can solve by having another 4th line forward who may score a couple more goals than Downey IMO.
Agreed, the problem is will Downey score one goal this year, will he get 5 pts, no one really knows for sure obviously, but if you look at his career numbers he averages about 3 points a season. As this team stands he is taking a spot from one of the following: Maltby, Kopecky, Drake, Huds, or Cleary. Or he will be the 13th forward and play once and a while, well barring injury. So if he is the team enforcer, what good is he doing in the press box.

Given the state of affairs i'm of the opinion that since you cannot solve the issue of a top 6 forward right now you must look at other issues. One glaring issue is that 29 other teams can fight and this team cannot. We have an opportunity to add Downey to the lineup to help solve that problem. The opportunity cost here isn't the expense of a ton of goals or production from the top 6, its for a mediocre and quite probable miniscule increase in production that probably doesn't make any difference whilst still leaving us with a glaring hole in the toughness department.
True, but the team has to find ways to get the goals back that they are missing in the top 6 spot some how. Plus the team is giving Grigs a try out as well and if you look at the roster it is already full without him or Downey on it. So as I see this roster I would rather have Drake at .5 mil and having had only one season where he had less than 25 points. Granted it was last year, but I am more willing to take a chance that he will regain his old form than I am that Downey will have an impact as a 12th or 13th forward. Which would do one of the following:
1. Take Kopecky spot and send another young guy down, thus costing the wings the mentoring of Kopecky to become the gritty forward.
2. Send Drake packing costing this team potentially 20 pts, and the mentorship.
3. Make him the 13th forward which again does not help anything really, as I said above having him in the press box makes no sense, he can't be in a fight up there, unless it is with his own teammate.
4. Take Maltby's spot that is the way I see it to work best but even then he has taken away at least 10 pts and a very solid penalty killer. Now I think this team has 4-6 solid pk-ers, so the loss of Maltby in that role is not that severe, however if there is an injury or two then Malts would have to step in, but then again with an injury or two Downey's role would also increase. I don't agree with the toughness stance, but I think that is because you and I have different definitions of toughness, I think you are talking about fighting and you probably think I am talking about grit. But this team did not back down to 3 very tough teams in the playoffs, and was a bounce or two or a 5-3 goal away from a 3-2 series lead against the ducks. Again I think we are referring to two different things when we say toughness.



We should have started discussing this topic like this from the start it wouldn't have been the Dead horse argument of I want him, yeah well I don't. Much more intellectual this way!

EDIT: Gordie the "Won't stop anything" argument is not so much in rebuttal to you, it is the people who keep posting that it is either Downey or watching Dats and Z get run over all of the time. If people stop saying that is the reason for him I will stop saying "he won't stop anything".

Edited by Opie, 21 September 2007 - 10:32 AM.

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#58 sticknmove

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 10:44 AM

"Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup."

Some times I think it is a sense of anti-reality more then anything else, and I am honestly not trying to be a d*ck. I mean the Red Wings have tried the "powerplay is our enforcer" lineup the last couple years and it has not brought us a cup so it amazes me that people like you, who like us all want nothing more to bring the cup back to Detroit will refuse the notion of trying a little something new and have a enforcer on the roster for certain nights. And do not give me that BS that "we had Norton blah blah blah and he didn't do sh*t for us", Norton was NEVER given a fair shake here, that guy was in Grand Rapids before he showed up to camp that summer. People around here seem to love reminding everyone that "WE MADE IT TO THE WCF LAST YEAR WITHOUT A FIGHTER AND IT WOULD OF MADE NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAYS IF WOULD OF HAD ONE, PSSSH" and a true statement that is, but much like opie I am more concerned with the Stanley Cup, that is opposed to the WCF, and I know we made it there enforcerless, and congrats, we had another amazing year last year but I do remember watching a stanley cup that featured 2 teams, both of them might I add carried "enforcer types" on their roster, and no those types werent playing in the finals, or consistently at any point of the playoffs, that is nothing new, sometimes I think people here think they discovered asomething when they proclaim "HOW MUCH DID PARROS HELP?? HE DIDN'T EVEN DRESS IN THE PLAYOFFS".....Well no sh*t Einstein, enforcers tend to sit postseason as teams opt to go with more depth because the grind (that being amount of crucial games in such short time). That is nothing new, but Anaheim and Ottawa if nothing else proves having an enforcer or enforcers does not HURT your chances of success one inkling.
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#59 Opie

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 11:03 AM

QUOTE(sticknmove @ September 21, 2007 - 03:44PM) View Post

"Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup."

Some times I think it is a sense of anti-reality more then anything else, and I am honestly not trying to be a d*ck. I mean the Red Wings have tried the "powerplay is our enforcer" lineup the last couple years and it has not brought us a cup so it amazes me that people like you, who like us all want nothing more to bring the cup back to Detroit will refuse the notion of trying a little something new and have a enforcer on the roster for certain nights. And do not give me that BS that "we had Norton blah blah blah and he didn't do sh*t for us", Norton was NEVER given a fair shake here, that guy was in Grand Rapids before he showed up to camp that summer. People around here seem to love reminding everyone that "WE MADE IT TO THE WCF LAST YEAR WITHOUT A FIGHTER AND IT WOULD OF MADE NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAYS IF WOULD OF HAD ONE, PSSSH" and a true statement that is, but much like opie I am more concerned with the Stanley Cup, that is opposed to the WCF, and I know we made it there enforcerless, and congrats, we had another amazing year last year but I do remember watching a stanley cup that featured 2 teams, both of them might I add carried "enforcer types" on their roster, and no those types werent playing in the finals, or consistently at any point of the playoffs, that is nothing new, sometimes I think people here think they discovered asomething when they proclaim "HOW MUCH DID PARROS HELP?? HE DIDN'T EVEN DRESS IN THE PLAYOFFS".....Well no sh*t Einstein, enforcers tend to sit postseason as teams opt to go with more depth because the grind (that being amount of crucial games in such short time). That is nothing new, but Anaheim and Ottawa if nothing else proves having an enforcer or enforcers does not HURT your chances of success one inkling.

First off great post

I agree and if this team had Lang back I would have no issue with them signing up a Downey type guy. Not that my opinion matters to the wings at all.
But you are telling me that having an enforcer helped the Ducks, just not in the playoffs? Correct? ( just curious didn't want to miss read your post)
I agree that having an enforcer doesn't hurt the team, I am saying my opinion is that this team needs to focus on other aspects.
I for one have never come out and said people who want fighters are idiots, actually it is usually the opposite. Those of us who would rather see some one other than an enforcer get ragged on, and are called things like "Anti-realistic"or are told that the wings didn't win the cup because they didn't have an enforcer. More often than not I find myself defending my opinion in these debates. Not attacking the fighters. It is taken as attacking when I pose a question like, how does an enforcer help the team. It seems as soon as an enforcer type player is signed by another team or clears waivers, this place goes into a tizzie about how that was the missing piece to the cup. It is not stated as "I would have loved to have that guy" or it starts that way and then the arguing back and forth begins.
Inevitably someone brings up the Philly game last year, and my standard response is what happen to Philly and then that is when the s*** storm happens, because some people on here can not articulate a response to it. Not all!

Hey if you think the wings need an enforcer/fighter more power to you, just don't jump down my throat because I don't and then expect me to post back "Oh, you are so right I changed my mind." Because no matter what my opinion you (like me) won't change yours.

And the more I think about this I would actually like to have Downey in the top 12 as long as it is over Maltby.
That will probably be the least popular thing I have ever typed, but I as I think about it, Downey would provide more of what people like about Maltby, the antagonizer, plus he will fight, and the 4-6 goals 10 pts Maltby would get are replaceable. Plus Mule, Z, Dats, Cleary, Drake can all kill penalties.
So I guess maybe you have swayed my opinion.
Congrats!

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#60 F.Michael

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 11:13 AM

QUOTE(GordieSid&Ted @ September 21, 2007 - 10:00AM) View Post


Opie, instead of fighting the argument that Downey can stop other players from running our guys, which i'm in total agreement with you that he cannot do that. Instead of focusing on that as a point for your argument. Why not be open minded and look at Downey as being the type of player that can take runs at the oppositions best players and dish out a little punishment? It seems to me that nobody should have a problem with a Redwings players going full tilt at the other teams' best guys.

Every Cup winner tends to have more than a few guys whom are $hit disturbers, or for the opposition they'll call them "chippy", or for some they're known as cheapshot artists.

I'll be the 1st to say I don't want to have a Claude Lemieux type (then again we did have Bertuzzi), but someone who isn't afraid of getting into the faces of the opposing stars, & getting them off their game...Maltby used to do this quite well, but he also has a knack for backing down, and or not standing up for himself, or a teammate...Maybe with Drake, & possibly Downey as linemates - he'll grow a spine, & get his nose dirty like he had several years ago.

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