The Elite That You've Lost Respect For

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Last postseason I lost a lot of respect for Iginla. It's one of those things that seriously leaves you upset, because you do actually appreciate and respect what these guys do on the ice. However, after that series all the respect I had for Iginla was lost due to his temper and ill-advised tactics.

Last night I saw it in Big Joe. Another guy I had nothing but respect for, but talk about a temper-tantrum. A typical, "We can't win so I'm going to slash guys from behind when the play is no where near them" or "I'm going to get that extra shot in after the ref blows the whistle, just to satisfy my temper".

I understand tempers can get the best of people. Hell, they've gotten the best of me at times when playing sports, but for some reason its more upsetting when its one of the elite that commits these acts.

Thoughts? Which of the "elite" have you lost respect for?

[b.shanafan14 733]

Last postseason I lost a lot of respect for Iginla. It's one of those things that seriously leaves you upset, because you do actually appreciate and respect what these guys do on the ice. However, after that series all the respect I had for Iginla was lost due to his temper and ill-advised tactics.

Last night I saw it in Big Joe. Another guy I had nothing but respect for, but talk about a temper-tantrum. A typical, "We can't win so I'm going to slash guys from behind when the play is no where near them" or "I'm going to get that extra shot in after the ref blows the whistle, just to satisfy my temper".

I understand tempers can get the best of people. Hell, they've gotten the best of me at times when playing sports, but for some reason its more upsetting when its one of the elite that commits these acts.

Thoughts? Which of the "elite" have you lost respect for?

I totally agree, while Joe had a few cheap ones in the playoffs last year, I dismissed it because it was nothing major and it was playoffs. But last night, as much as he was in the box, he got off SOOO easy, kinda makes you wonder: If it wasn't Joe Thorton, would there have been more reprecussion, maybe even beyond the game last night? He slashed Zata countless times, was trying to run Cheli all night, broke a stick cross checking him, face washed everyone on the ice outside of Al Sabotka, pulling off Dats' cap, (insert other general goonery)....

I thought it was pretty disgusting to tell you the truth and while at the time they think its their way of getting even when they are playing s***ty, in the end, they just look like goons. I definately think a minor fine, or one game suspension to Joe just to send a message that that isn't to be tolerated. Had me furious last night that he only got 3 trips to the box, they should have ousted his as when they noticed that all he was on the ice for was to rough up our players, this wouldn't have been the first time refs have taken such action, but i think because its Big Joe, a superstar, they don't want to lose trading card sales

[hockey&beer 16]

Speaking of Big Joe, I actually lost a bit of respect for him last night as well. One particular instance really got me. I'm not too sure if this incident was televised (I was at the game) but Joe took a penalty for slashing (I think) and after the whistle as he was skating from the Sharks bench area, and as he crossed paths with Z threw a little jab up under Z's visor. Of course the zebras didn't see anything. I just thought it was a little excessive being that Z isn't know for being an agitator (unless you count tearing up the opposing teams defence).

[irishtemper14+25 11]

yea i was pissed watching the game cause all they were doin is cheap shottin us the last 10 mins, but i did love seeing dats make those 2 guys run into eachother

one person i lost respect for last yr was alfredson, after he shot the puck at niedameyer in the cup finals

[lfd250 1]

What's Elite?

Pronger - Cheap shot

Kayria - Dive Expert

Goalies behind Homer - Flop Experts

Any Ref in the NHL

Nashville owners - Takes a good team and tears it appart.

Bettman - Enough said.

Grier - was crying to the ref at every tv timeout last night.

Joe - Enough said about last night.

The problem about last night was they were just frustrated. (sp)

[puckloo39 5,686]

What's Elite?

Pronger - Cheap shot

Kayria - Dive Expert

Goalies behind Homer - Flop Experts

Any Ref in the NHL

Nashville owners - Takes a good team and tears it appart.

Bettman - Enough said.

Grier - was crying to the ref at every tv timeout last night.

Joe - Enough said about last night.

The problem about last night was they were just frustrated. (sp)

you're right, the Sharks were a shadow of the team they could be last night. Nice list, by the way... I think most players can have a bad night, or melt-down. There are a few who are more consistent than others.

Pronger has earned my enduring .

The overall environment of the game has changed with the "new NHL" and of course the worst thing is the constant whistles over things that should have been let go, balanced nicely by the lack of whistles and slow response on calls that should have been made. I suspect the frustration level of all the players and coaches must reach a boiling point some nights. We think the Wings are unfairly targeted, of course, but I wonder if other teams don't feel the same way? I know I've seen a lot of soul-killing bad calls on other teams over the years, but it does seem to be escalating this season on minor flaws. It makes the game harder to watch some nights.

I am a "homer for Homer" but I know - saw with my own eyes!! - that Luongo waved his glove and hit Homer and leaned into him to draw a penalty the other night. Lost respect for him a bit on that one. No wonder Homer was so puzzled by the call -- he didn't do anything!

[eva unit zero 271]

yea i was pissed watching the game cause all they were doin is cheap shottin us the last 10 mins, but i did love seeing dats make those 2 guys run into eachother

one person i lost respect for last yr was alfredson, after he shot the puck at niedameyer in the cup finals

The argument that Alfredsson shot the puck at Niedermayer is ridiculous. He was at center ice with time running out, and he went to take a last second shot. Sami Pahlsson was in the way, so Alfredsson tried to shoot around him. Pahlsson stuck his stick out to prevent Alfredsson's shot, and it deflected off Pahlsson's stick.

Look at the 1:26 mark of this video:

Niedermayer was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

I lost a lot more respect for him as a player based soly on how bad he was last night. Invisible with the puck

[toby91_ca 620]

Just out of curiosity, anyone that has lost respect for certain players, do you respect Chelios?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Over the years many of the "elites" have showcased similar behavior; these 2 in particular (Thorton, & Iginla) are of the "power forward" variety - as in if they can't score/win they get frustrated, & their emotions get the better of them by lashing out with fisticuffs/slashes/elbows/etc/etc.

Have I lost respect for them?...No - not really since this is afterall the sport of ice hockey. Does it get under my skin? Yes - yes it does because they're hacking/slashing/thugging our boys, but once again it's ice hockey; this is why we could use a few more power forward/mean spirited types on the Wings whom aren't afraid to give it back when it's dished out to us.

Of course this is hockey, but your missing the point. What I don't care for is seeing a guy like Z skating away from the puck and having a player slash him from behind. If you want to call that hockey, I can't stop you, but I feel that's the type of stuff that makes people lose respect for players. Don't misunderstand me, I love good old fashioned physical hockey. I truly wish there was more of it in the "new" nhl, but there is plenty of opportunity to hit a guy clean. What Joe was doing last night was not of that variety. That's my point.

Just out of curiosity, anyone that has lost respect for certain players, do you respect Chelios?

I respect him as a player, but he does falls into that category.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I've never been a huge fan of Thornton because he's a cry baby, but man, I'd take him on this team anyday.

Iginla falls into that catagorie, but I still have some respect for him because he's the captain of the Flames, Pronger falls there too, but I never respected him.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I'm not gonna condemn Thornton for one night's worth of work. Yeah, it was a pretty lousy night for him overall, but that happens. A playoff series, yeah. A regular-season game in October? Nah.

Pronger's the one that falls into this category for me. Up til 2002, when he made it his singular mission to take a run at Yzerman every time they were on the ice together, I had thought of him as a fearsome defenseman who works his tail off and commands respect on the ice. And the '07 playoffs confirmed what we saw in '02.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I'm not gonna condemn Thornton for one night's worth of work. Yeah, it was a pretty lousy night for him overall, but that happens. A playoff series, yeah. A regular-season game in October? Nah.

Pronger's the one that falls into this category for me. Up til 2002, when he made it his singular mission to take a run at Yzerman every time they were on the ice together, I had thought of him as a fearsome defenseman who works his tail off and commands respect on the ice. And the '07 playoffs confirmed what we saw in '02.

I can appreciate that, but If this was the first time Joe had acted like he did last night, I wouldn't have brought up this thread.

[handyandy_101 0]

Over the years many of the "elites" have showcased similar behavior; these 2 in particular (Thorton, & Iginla) are of the "power forward" variety - as in if they can't score/win they get frustrated, & their emotions get the better of them by lashing out with fisticuffs/slashes/elbows/etc/etc.

Have I lost respect for them?...No - not really since this is afterall the sport of ice hockey. Does it get under my skin? Yes - yes it does because they're hacking/slashing/thugging our boys, but once again it's ice hockey; this is why we could use a few more power forward/mean spirited types on the Wings whom aren't afraid to give it back when it's dished out to us.

what gets under my skin??? i hate that elite power forwards like thornton in this case chose to take out his frustration the way he did.....by going around the ice throwin cheap ***** shots at every player he crossed paths with....mainly our stars who he knows will not retaliate. among being a great talent, thornton is a huge, strong, tough guy and if he has some steam he wants to blow off, i think he should do it in a good old fashioned fight with one of our scrappers (or should i say, our ONE scrapper). i no for a fact that this is a route that guys like iggy and levavalier have chosen on more than one occasion, and they are certainly not scrutinized for it....in fact they tend to be commended, and i cant see y thornton wouldnt act the same way

with all that said, it was one bad nite and i have to stick behind the great canadian talents out there....so i still luv big joe

[Lou_Siffer 1]

what gets under my skin??? i hate that elite power forwards like thornton in this case chose to take out his frustration the way he did.....by going around the ice throwin cheap ***** shots at every player he crossed paths with....mainly our stars who he knows will not retaliate. among being a great talent, thornton is a huge, strong, tough guy and if he has some steam he wants to blow off, i think he should do it in a good old fashioned fight with one of our scrappers (or should i say, our ONE scrapper). i no for a fact that this is a route that guys like iggy and levavalier have chosen on more than one occasion, and they are certainly not scrutinized for it....in fact they tend to be commended, and i cant see y thornton wouldnt act the same way

with all that said, it was one bad nite and i have to stick behind the great canadian talents out there....so i still luv big joe

Who's to say Thornton wasnt looking for that good old fashioned fight? Im sure Joe wouldve been more than willing to accomodate if say, Lilja came a calling because of the slashes on Hank. Put it this way, if Joe straight challenges him out of the blue, do you think Lilja even drops his gloves? Highly doubtful. Alot of times guys take liberties with star players as a means of hoping someone comes to fight them for it.

Playing nasty, especially for a power forward, is part of the game and always has been. Did Gordie play like a gentleman? Hell no. I have no problem with what guys like Iginla do...both him and Joe are 2 of my favorites.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Gordie Howe was known for throwing elbows if opposing Dmen were hanging onto him too much - not exactly Mr.Clean. Did anyone lose respect for him? Ted Lindsay carried his stick high/slashed, & was known to be a dirty little sob, but did anyone lose respect for him as well?

I'm not missing the so called point; it's just that hockey has always had players (elite, or not) have "fits" on the ice. Slashing/elbowing/cheap shots is nothing new; it's why guys like Gretzky had a bodyguards Semenko, & McSorley; Stevie had Probert/Kocur/Gallant out there to keep an eye on him. Glenn Anderson of Oiler fame had a habit of hitting guys in the head with his stick (making it look accidental) as he was dragged/tripped from behind.

I'll be the 1st to agree that the cheap shots have gone up since the instigator rule has been in place (funny though that the instigator rule worked in our favor last night)...I too find it frustrating to see our guys manhandled; myself, & others here have pointed this out on other occasions ie - lasts years debacle in Philly; yet some here were all against signing guys like Downey/Asham when they're available - saying how more beneficial it is having Ellis/Kopecky playing instead :nonono:

Unless Campbell starts issuing fines/suspensions over these infractions (not gonna happen since no injury resulted) it'll be up to the refs to make the calls (unlikely), or Holland finding some players whom possess the testicular fortitude to go after these guys in order for it to stop (unlikely as well), & I'm not talkin' face rubs with a smelly glove either.

Great minds think alike! Hadnt seen your Gordie reference when i started my post.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

I only saw the highlights of last nights game - but yeah, what was up with Thornton? What a ***** - it was all so blatant, he came across looking like such an ignorant.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Last postseason I lost a lot of respect for Iginla. It's one of those things that seriously leaves you upset, because you do actually appreciate and respect what these guys do on the ice. However, after that series all the respect I had for Iginla was lost due to his temper and ill-advised tactics.

Last night I saw it in Big Joe. Another guy I had nothing but respect for, but talk about a temper-tantrum. A typical, "We can't win so I'm going to slash guys from behind when the play is no where near them" or "I'm going to get that extra shot in after the ref blows the whistle, just to satisfy my temper".

I understand tempers can get the best of people. Hell, they've gotten the best of me at times when playing sports, but for some reason its more upsetting when its one of the elite that commits these acts.

Thoughts? Which of the "elite" have you lost respect for?

In truth, I haven't nor wouldn't lose respect for any players like Iginla or Thornton for stuff they do in games like what Joe did last night. I was never an "elite" player at any level but I played hard and I wanted to win and when things didn't go well yeah, its frustrating and you're more prone to chopping and slashing people. I could be a huge dick, ask anybody who ever played with me and they'll tell you. One time, we were getting trounced like 8-2 and I was laying wood on everybody and after I chased down an icing this guy skated up to me and started to trash talk about me slashing people and that I was an *******, so of course I two-handed him right above the top of his boot and he went down in a heap. Dirty? Of course. I got called for slashing and they threw me out of the game. My coach didn't mind it and nobody on my team did either. The only people who had a problem with it was the other team. Frankly, I like players who play like that. I like players who don't lose well.

Do I like to see our guys get slashed or cross checked just because we're owning the opposition? Of course not. But if the shoe were on the other foot i'd like to see that kind of anger, passion, intensity and frustration from our guys and I certainly wouldn't lose respect for them.

I would bet that if Datsyuk were to slash and cross check Klye Mclaren, nobody on here would lose respect for him. Quite the opposite in that we'd probably love it and make excuses for why Mclaren deserved it etc......

It boils down to which side of the fence you're on and what type of player you are. If you don't get mixed up in that kind of stuff you're going to think its cheap and dirty, especially if its happening to you or your team. I think its part of the intensity and nastiness of this great game and I don't get offended or lose respect for people who play like that.

I lose respect for guys like Claude Lemieux or guys who haul off and throw haymaking sucker punches like Matt Johnson did to Jeff Beukeboom. Hacks, whacks, slashes, cross checks, most of the time this stuff is just par for the course and I don't see it as a big deal. Part of the game.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I can't really say that I ever respected Pronger or Iginla, so I won't even mention them in this discussion. I'm adamant about disrespecting players that fight with visors on. That includes guys like Phaneuf, Tootoo, Perry, etc. That kind of crap doesn't belong in hockey. As for Thornton, he could hold his own against Downey. However, the Sharks don't have an enforcer on their roster, so I don't think that Thornton would play this way against the Ducks or Flyers. That's why we need guys like Downey on this team, and even though Thornton is a star player, I wanted to see Downey challenge him last night, because Thornton is a better fighter than most star players, so it's not like Downey would be accused of spot picking.

[lfd250 1]

What you didn't see on TV was The San Jose goalie take the knob of his stick and try and spear Homer in the chin. So yea, all of SJ was bad last night.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Who's to say Thornton wasnt looking for that good old fashioned fight? Im sure Joe wouldve been more than willing to accomodate if say, Lilja came a calling because of the slashes on Hank. Put it this way, if Joe straight challenges him out of the blue, do you think Lilja even drops his gloves? Highly doubtful. Alot of times guys take liberties with star players as a means of hoping someone comes to fight them for it.

Playing nasty, especially for a power forward, is part of the game and always has been. Did Gordie play like a gentleman? Hell no. I have no problem with what guys like Iginla do...both him and Joe are 2 of my favorites.

Iginla used to be one of my favorite players. He can score, hit, fight, play nasty. but I did lose a lot of respect for him with his constant gooning it up at the end of games. watching him chase Schneider all the way across the rink trying to crosscheck him was just sad really.

Maybe now that Sutter's gone he'll figure out that he can play a tough game without doing lame stuff like that.

Pronger is one of the elite I've lost respect for. Honestly I've never liked the guy, but thought he was a great player. I hated him like I hated Chelios before he played in Detroit.

But more and more he's becoming a joke. A great player who's whiny, likes to throw unprovoked elbows from behind, and rarely drops the gloves.

For those who were citing past greats and all their cheapshots, I think one of the big differences is those guys were sticking up for themselves. That's different than chasing someone across the ice at the end of a game that's out of reach. Messier was known for throwing some nasty elbows after he'd be run at. If you're gonna hit him, you're gonna pay a price. Even Stevie would throw the two hander if someone pissed him off.

I would mention Tootoo but he's about as far from elite as you can get, and I've never had any respect for the guy.

In truth, I haven't nor wouldn't lose respect for any players like Iginla or Thornton for stuff they do in games like what Joe did last night. I was never an "elite" player at any level but I played hard and I wanted to win and when things didn't go well yeah, its frustrating and you're more prone to chopping and slashing people. I could be a huge dick, ask anybody who ever played with me and they'll tell you. One time, we were getting trounced like 8-2 and I was laying wood on everybody and after I chased down an icing this guy skated up to me and started to trash talk about me slashing people and that I was an *******, so of course I two-handed him right above the top of his boot and he went down in a heap. Dirty? Of course. I got called for slashing and they threw me out of the game. My coach didn't mind it and nobody on my team did either. The only people who had a problem with it was the other team. Frankly, I like players who play like that. I like players who don't lose well.

Do I like to see our guys get slashed or cross checked just because we're owning the opposition? Of course not. But if the shoe were on the other foot i'd like to see that kind of anger, passion, intensity and frustration from our guys and I certainly wouldn't lose respect for them.

I would bet that if Datsyuk were to slash and cross check Klye Mclaren, nobody on here would lose respect for him. Quite the opposite in that we'd probably love it and make excuses for why Mclaren deserved it etc......

It boils down to which side of the fence you're on and what type of player you are. If you don't get mixed up in that kind of stuff you're going to think its cheap and dirty, especially if its happening to you or your team. I think its part of the intensity and nastiness of this great game and I don't get offended or lose respect for people who play like that.

I lose respect for guys like Claude Lemieux or guys who haul off and throw haymaking sucker punches like Matt Johnson did to Jeff Beukeboom. Hacks, whacks, slashes, cross checks, most of the time this stuff is just par for the course and I don't see it as a big deal. Part of the game.

I think the big difference though Gordie is you weren't playing in the NHL. (were you? )

The season is long and they want their careers to be too. So no, I wouldn't respect or like some player on the Wings just running around slashing someone on the foot and potentially breaking their ankle, any more than I liked Pronger trying to put his elbows through the back of Homer's head to take him out of the playoffs.

Now if McLaren ran at Dats and Pavel swung around and laid a two-hander on him, that's a different story. But a pro hockey player who can't handle losing to the point where he's running around cheapshotting guys, that's pretty weak.

It's a very thin line between the kind of stuff you're talking about and the likes of the Turtle, Beukeboom, Simon. They're all essentially a pissed off player who can't handle losing. It's just in those instances the outcomes happened to be worse. A head turned that way, a back turned, another step this way, mostly fluke circumstances and a split second lapse in judgement turned them into massive cheapshots instead of the minor ones you're talking about.

Edited October 27, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[Guest Canadian Wings]

Joe Thornton doesn't liek to be hit - he's a *****...but to answer your question...

- Chris Pronger

- Joe Thornton

I still like Igilna tho

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Gordie Howe was known for throwing elbows if opposing Dmen were hanging onto him too much - not exactly Mr.Clean. Did anyone lose respect for him? Ted Lindsay carried his stick high/slashed, & was known to be a dirty little sob, but did anyone lose respect for him as well?

I'm not missing the so called point; it's just that hockey has always had players (elite, or not) have "fits" on the ice. Slashing/elbowing/cheap shots is nothing new; it's why guys like Gretzky had a bodyguards Semenko, & McSorley; Stevie had Probert/Kocur/Gallant out there to keep an eye on him. Glenn Anderson of Oiler fame had a habit of hitting guys in the head with his stick (making it look accidental) as he was dragged/tripped from behind.

I'll be the 1st to agree that the cheap shots have gone up since the instigator rule has been in place (funny though that the instigator rule worked in our favor last night)...I too find it frustrating to see our guys manhandled; myself, & others here have pointed this out on other occasions ie - lasts years debacle in Philly; yet some here were all against signing guys like Downey/Asham when they're available - saying how more beneficial it is having Ellis/Kopecky playing instead :nonono:

Unless Campbell starts issuing fines/suspensions over these infractions (not gonna happen since no injury resulted) it'll be up to the refs to make the calls (unlikely), or Holland finding some players whom possess the testicular fortitude to go after these guys in order for it to stop (unlikely as well), & I'm not talkin' face rubs with a smelly glove either.

I still think you are. The point of this thread was more referring to players that refer to these tactics when their team is down and out. I am all for aggressive, physical hockey, but when your team is out of the game and your slashing players from behind its uncalled for and unnecessary. It's essentially the definition of "gooning it up".

That's what I'm referring to. This has nothing to do with physical hockey and throwing your weight around.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

In truth, I haven't nor wouldn't lose respect for any players like Iginla or Thornton for stuff they do in games like what Joe did last night. I was never an "elite" player at any level but I played hard and I wanted to win and when things didn't go well yeah, its frustrating and you're more prone to chopping and slashing people. I could be a huge dick, ask anybody who ever played with me and they'll tell you. One time, we were getting trounced like 8-2 and I was laying wood on everybody and after I chased down an icing this guy skated up to me and started to trash talk about me slashing people and that I was an *******, so of course I two-handed him right above the top of his boot and he went down in a heap. Dirty? Of course. I got called for slashing and they threw me out of the game. My coach didn't mind it and nobody on my team did either. The only people who had a problem with it was the other team. Frankly, I like players who play like that. I like players who don't lose well.

Do I like to see our guys get slashed or cross checked just because we're owning the opposition? Of course not. But if the shoe were on the other foot i'd like to see that kind of anger, passion, intensity and frustration from our guys and I certainly wouldn't lose respect for them.

I would bet that if Datsyuk were to slash and cross check Klye Mclaren, nobody on here would lose respect for him. Quite the opposite in that we'd probably love it and make excuses for why Mclaren deserved it etc......

It boils down to which side of the fence you're on and what type of player you are. If you don't get mixed up in that kind of stuff you're going to think its cheap and dirty, especially if its happening to you or your team. I think its part of the intensity and nastiness of this great game and I don't get offended or lose respect for people who play like that.

I lose respect for guys like Claude Lemieux or guys who haul off and throw haymaking sucker punches like Matt Johnson did to Jeff Beukeboom. Hacks, whacks, slashes, cross checks, most of the time this stuff is just par for the course and I don't see it as a big deal. Part of the game.

I have to agree with everything you said there. Anyone who has played hockey at any level that is remotely competitive knows that when things aren't going your way you get frustrated. One that happens, one of two things happen. You either just get upset, or you let your emotions get the best of you. A simple slash, hook, ect. is no big deal. But what happened to Draper is something that is unacceptable.

Edited October 27, 2007 by BringHomeTheCup!

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I have to agree with everything you said there. Anyone who has played hockey at any level that is remotely competitive knows that when things aren't going your way you get frustrated. One that happens, one of two things happen. You either just get upset, or you let your emotions get the best of you. A simple slash, hook, ect. is no big deal. But what happened to Draper is something that is unacceptable.

But they're the same thing. It's just a matter of timing and sometimes pure fluke that ends up being the difference between a harmless cheapshot and one like the hit on Draper.

If anything, Lemieux was throwing a hit, which is a legal play, he just did it from behind close to the boards. Where a slash is always illegal.

Of course everyone who is competitive gets frustrated. But as adults and professionals you learn to contain it., otherwise you end up with a bunch of Bertuzzi incidents.

I've always believed that sports don't build character, they reveal it.

Edited October 27, 2007 by haroldsnepsts