Goon

[newfy 695]

I'd be willing to bet Helm could naturally whoop most guys on our team despite the size difference. A Canadian boy who went through the meat grinder known as the WHL, he's obviously rock solid from the way he hits and has shown he's got incredibly quickness and will. I doubt he would need many lessons to become a good fighter.

I don't for a second doubt that right now Helm could whoop anyone on our team right now except maybe Ericcson, Stuart and Cleary but if a little guy like Helm is what we're looking for to do our fighting we're in trouble. He would be a good compliment to a tough grind line but shouldn't be the toughest factor. I think its more a case of he doesn't fight enough to be good at it but if he did fight even a little bit more he could be a fairly tough customer.

[titanium2 867]

So everybody is just going to ignore that, or what?

Hahahaha. I was waiting for someone to pounce on that. Good for you.

[Guest micah]

Holmstrom on a 4th line is utterly useless -- I hope he has not fallen that much and he can make a decent recovery from his injuries.

In that scenario, you are literally talking about $5.25 million in dead weight of a 4th line that hardly ever plays. That is huge.

Every championship team Detroit has seen has rolled 4 effective lines, even in the playoffs. If not, you better pray to the hockey gods you do not get any significant injuries.

Oh they'd play, just not at even strength.

Detroit will not be able to roll 4 efective lines this year if they dress Maltby and Draper in every game. It doesn't matter if it's Ablekader or Brashear or Franzen playing with them, that line is going to suck. You read it here.

Holmstrom on a scoring line is useless. He is effective on the PP, and that's it. Even strength Holmstrom will not be pretty this year. You read it here.

In spite of the above, the Wings will have a good year and ice a competetive team. I'm not optimistic about their chances of winning the Cup back, but I really thought they would last year, so what do I know?

[Dimaline312000 51]

we need a goon

No, we don't need a goon we do need a good physical player that can stand up to other physical players on other teams but we don't need a player that is going to cheap shot or get into penalty trouble. We don't need a good we just need some guys to be a little more physical.

[Guest Shoreline]

You want to argue that he played on the PK? He was 10th on the team in PK time on ice. He played a total of 98:36 on the PK all season. Guess who played about 3:30 less than him? The defensive liability known as Brian Rafalski. It's one thing if you wanna say Malts provides some good leadership and at least attempts to bring it in the post-season, but don't call the guy a good PK'er or say he spends a lot of time on the PK. He doesn't.

How about some perspective. Kris Draper, this team's leading FORWARD, was ranked #5. By that logic, Draper must be horrendous on the PK. There's 4 defensemen who have by far more PK time than anyone else. So to be fair, to both Malts and Draper, we'll look at forwards.

2008-09 reg. season

2009 playoffs

Anyone notice how high this Malts rank amongst this team's forwards not only during the regular season, but how, unlike goons, he was used just as much during the playoffs? Wow, Malts sure is worthless to me. Way over the hill.

Now, let's go over some of asshat TheDetroitRedWings's comments.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Hossa saw WAY MORE PK time than Maltby.

This past season the main PK unit was Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and also Hossa quite a bit. This is not 1998.

Unfortunately he got caught making the suggestion that Dats, Z, and HOSSA, all play "WAY MORE" on the PK than Malts. Now, obviously Z and Dats play more than Malts on the PK, that's kind of a no s*** statement, but how ******* wrong was he about Hossa? Yes, made up s***.

Now, notice how I never suggested that Malts plays more than anyone else, or "ALWAYS" (as TheDetroitRedWings used in his wonderful hyperbolic retort to me) was on the PK, that he logs a lot of PK minutes and is amongst the leaders. As you can see, this is true, 98 minutes means HE'S UTILIZED OFTEN ON THE PK -- 98 minutes is nothing to scoff at, and as for Raffy being that low, that's because he was obviously more offensive-minded and was only behind Lids being on the power play. It's obvious how Babs utilized him on special teams. Anyways, that obviously means Malts is a decent PKer because if he weren't, he wouldn't be utilized this much. I even admitted his skill is diminished (comparable to 10 years back) and he's older, which makes sense given he has less ice time overall and on the PK than 10 years ago (wow, who would've seen that coming?), but given his overall minutes compared to how much he gets on the PK, he's essentially a PK specialist, and a good penalty killer just like 10 years ago. This was never refuted.

Now, this is the fun part..

Anyone who objects to a goon must first realize and ponder something....

Kirk Maltby has a roster spot on this team! Kirk Maltby's skills are comparable to a goon. Can't score worth a damn and can't play a lick of defense. Bringing in a goon would at least be an upgrade to Maltby.

Great thing genius here brought up goons. Let's look at how well Malts stacks up against the league's goons.. including the Red Wings'..

Wow, look how comparable to goons Malts is. f***, Malts doesn't stand a chance against these guys. Look how much more utilized on the PK they are! Holy s***, TheDetroitRedWings, you sure were right. Especially come playoff time, I bet these goons were utilized even more.

Idiots crack me up.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Shoreline

[egroen 384]

.........

Idiots crack me up.

Nice post!

I'm just hoping Maltby plays this year like it's his last (which I am also guilty of hoping it is), and has a great year -- he seemed to respond well to pressure and always looked better after a benching and Babcock lit a fire under his ass.

Edited August 5, 2009 by egroen

[Guest Shoreline]

I don't imagine Malts plays that much longer. I'm sure most of us saw Helm and Flip as the transitioning away from him and Drapes, although Drapes still plays a ton of minutes. But since this topic is about goons, there is no problem this team had when it comes to winning the Stanley Cup that would be solved by having goons. NONE. ZERO. And a "goon" isn't an upgrade to Maltby. It's actually a horrendous downgrade.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled religious debate about how great goons are for this team.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Shoreline

[esteef 2,679]

Here's a fun stat, guess which two Wings players are the only ones with less reg season Average Time On Ice than Malts?

A: Downey and McCarty

Stats are fun!

esteef

[skacore 2]

How about some perspective. Kris Draper, this team's leading FORWARD, was ranked #5. By that logic, Draper must be horrendous on the PK. There's 4 defensemen who have by far more PK time than anyone else. So to be fair, to both Malts and Draper, we'll look at forwards.

2008-09 reg. season

2009 playoffs

Anyone notice how high this Malts rank amongst this team's forwards not only during the regular season, but how, unlike goons, he was used just as much during the playoffs? Wow, Malts sure is worthless to me. Way over the hill.

Now, let's go over some of asshat TheDetroitRedWings's comments.

Unfortunately he got caught making the suggestion that Dats, Z, and HOSSA, all play "WAY MORE" on the PK than Malts. Now, obviously Z and Dats play more than Malts on the PK, that's kind of a no s*** statement, but how ******* wrong was he about Hossa? Yes, made up s***.

Now, notice how I never suggested that Malts plays more than anyone else, or "ALWAYS" (as TheDetroitRedWings used in his wonderful hyperbolic retort to me) was on the PK, that he logs a lot of PK minutes and is amongst the leaders. As you can see, this is true, 98 minutes means HE'S UTILIZED OFTEN ON THE PK -- 98 minutes is nothing to scoff at, and as for Raffy being that low, that's because he was obviously more offensive-minded and was only behind Lids being on the power play. It's obvious how Babs utilized him on special teams. Anyways, that obviously means Malts is a decent PKer because if he weren't, he wouldn't be utilized this much. I even admitted his skill is diminished (comparable to 10 years back) and he's older, which makes sense given he has less ice time overall and on the PK than 10 years ago (wow, who would've seen that coming?), but given his overall minutes compared to how much he gets on the PK, he's essentially a PK specialist, and a good penalty killer just like 10 years ago. This was never refuted.

Now, this is the fun part..

Great thing genius here brought up goons. Let's look at how well Malts stacks up against the league's goons.. including the Red Wings'..

Wow, look how comparable to goons Malts is. f***, Malts doesn't stand a chance against these guys. Look how much more utilized on the PK they are! Holy s***, TheDetroitRedWings, you sure were right. Especially come playoff time, I bet these goons were utilized even more.

Idiots crack me up.

here's another couple stats:

DET reg. season PK: 78.3%, 25th out of 30

DET playoffs PK: 73.2%, 14th out of 16

ouch looks like Malts sure did a good job there

that took me 2 minutes, your post took half an hour lol

[dobbles 252]

here's another couple stats:

DET reg. season PK: 78.3%, 25th out of 30

DET playoffs PK: 73.2%, 14th out of 16

ouch looks like Malts sure did a good job there

that took me 2 minutes, your post took half an hour lol

so i guess we need to dump those worthless hacks like zetterberg and datyuk since they played a lot on the PK as well...

[Peleshob 0]

I think if Maltby were all that great on the PK guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk wouldn't have to take up PK time. Our leading scoring forwards shouldn't have to take on time killing penalties, they should be fresh for even strength and PP. I get that Babcock likes to cycle the PK to keep everyone lively, but I think it hurt the team a lot in the post-season. They looked worn down. This had best be Maltby's last season, because whether people like to admit it or not, he's essentially become a liability.

PS: I'm not one of the people calling for a goon... just a better grinder with a strong defensive presence.

[dobbles 252]

I think if Maltby were all that great on the PK guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk wouldn't have to take up PK time. Our leading scoring forwards shouldn't have to take on time killing penalties, they should be fresh for even strength and PP. I get that Babcock likes to cycle the PK to keep everyone lively, but I think it hurt the team a lot in the post-season. They looked worn down. This had best be Maltby's last season, because whether people like to admit it or not, he's essentially become a liability.

PS: I'm not one of the people calling for a goon... just a better grinder with a strong defensive presence.

i agree about maltby. i think most everyone realizes his time is almost up. i personally was still neutral last year, but had really hoped he would retire this summer. for what he brings to the table now, i would have preferred to give his spot to a youngster. now, with losing 4 forwards from last year, that makes it a bit easier to keep him. i am not a big advocate of trying to solve a teams problem through free agency, and there are only so many people to promote from GR.

i do disagree that datsyuk and zetterberg on the PK is a bad thing. they are there because both are great defensive forwards. now this past year, it is hard to say anyone was really that great on the PK, but i still think Z & D are both real good at the pk. it doesn't mean guys like draper and maltby are necessarily bad though. i don't see it as a cause adn effect relationship myself.

[redwingcapt 52]

New thread substance failure.

hahahahaa love that, who ever started this is a dumbass. so #1 a goon would eat up minutes of a grinder who would take an give a punch to stick up for a teamate and still play solid D. 2nd whatever dumbass said Ray sheiro or whoever( gm of the pens) had a goon and they won the cup because of that, umm no. they won because they played good hockey with speed and tired out the wings.... #3. if u praaise shiero so much go but a crosby jersey and suck a nut. 4th. the wings have a certain speed and puck possesion style game that a gooooon would not be able to compete with. for all you red neck jerkies who love to see a good fight, go watch your damn nascar and wait for tony stewart to throw another temper tantrum. hockey is in a new day of age, the use of a goon is less and less. and teams that use one in an everyday situation, are the teams that suck and struggle to bring in fans so they use them just ofr the entertainment of fights. GO HOME goon lovers!!

[Peleshob 0]

i agree about maltby. i think most everyone realizes his time is almost up. i personally was still neutral last year, but had really hoped he would retire this summer. for what he brings to the table now, i would have preferred to give his spot to a youngster. now, with losing 4 forwards from last year, that makes it a bit easier to keep him. i am not a big advocate of trying to solve a teams problem through free agency, and there are only so many people to promote from GR.

i do disagree that datsyuk and zetterberg on the PK is a bad thing. they are there because both are great defensive forwards. now this past year, it is hard to say anyone was really that great on the PK, but i still think Z & D are both real good at the pk. it doesn't mean guys like draper and maltby are necessarily bad though. i don't see it as a cause adn effect relationship myself.

I'm not saying D & Z are bad on the PK, in fact Z is pretty much amazing on the PK. But I am saying that if we had higher quality penalty killers, then D & Z could focus more on offense (even strength and PP). I just want someone more capable than Maltby to have PK time, without having to go to D & Z.

[Guest Shoreline]

Here's a fun stat, guess which two Wings players are the only ones with less reg season Average Time On Ice than Malts?

A: Downey and McCarty

Stats are fun!

given his overall minutes compared to how much he gets on the PK, he's essentially a PK specialist

[Guest Shoreline]

here's another couple stats:

DET reg. season PK: 78.3%, 25th out of 30

DET playoffs PK: 73.2%, 14th out of 16

ouch looks like Malts sure did a good job there

that took me 2 minutes, your post took half an hour lol

Kirk Maltby's PK time in the last 2 seasons (note one of them being a cup championship):

Detroit's PK in the last 2 seasons (rank, then percent):

If you want to correlate Maltby with PK %, it favors Maltby playing more to a better PK %, in reality. You should probably put way more than 2 minutes into this, as there's a correlation between you not spending much time thinking, and posting bulls***.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Shoreline

[skacore 2]

Kirk Maltby's PK time in the last 2 seasons (note one of them being a cup championship):

Detroit's PK in the last 2 seasons (rank, then percent):

If you want to correlate Maltby with PK %, it favors Maltby playing more to a better PK %, in reality. You should probably put way more than 2 minutes into this, as there's a correlation between you not spending much time thinking, and posting bulls***.

so you're suggesting we pretend Maltby's lackluster 08-09 season didn't really happen to make him look better? hey if we go way back he was once on Team Canada so that probably means he's still that good, right?

he's getting older and worse, this year will be no exception

[Peleshob 0]

The PK percentage isn't better or worse just because of Kirk Maltby...

2007-08: Todd McLellan

2008-09: Brad McCrimmon

Also, I'm looking to change Maltby's player type on NHL 09... does anyone know where "Spare Tire" is?... I thought it was right after Grinder but I can't find it.

[Guest Shoreline]

so you're suggesting we pretend Maltby's lackluster 08-09 season didn't really happen to make him look better? hey if we go way back he was once on Team Canada so that probably means he's still that good, right?

he's getting older and worse, this year will be no exception

It's obvious that Maltby is getting older and his play time has been going down, as it should when there's younger guys who can accomplish more. That being said, he's one of this team's key penalty killers, and I'm confused as to what you define as lackluster. You already made an assertion that Maltby's minutes determined this team's shoddy PK and were shown you couldn't possibly be any more wrong. Malts is still a good penalty killer, which is why he plays a lot on the penalty kill. I mean, what about that is confusing for you? Am I stepping between you and some fanatical dislike for him, or maybe to fulfill some penchant to replace him with a goon? I kinda think that is what this is.

The PK percentage isn't better or worse just because of Kirk Maltby...

2007-08: Todd McLellan

2008-09: Brad McCrimmon

This, I'd say, is far more logical, as the coaching staff, including assistant coaches, have a great impact on the X's and O's. It is interesting that in the same year as this team's offense was kicked into 5th gear, the defense also sputtered, not just on the PK, but even strength too. It was the first season I had ever seen Lidstrom, of all people, this human, as the most prominent thing, despite his Norris-like performance this season.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Shoreline

[Konnan511 1,736]

I know you don't get a +/- while you are killing a penalty unless you get a shorty, but is there a +/- stat for the amount of times you were out there and didn't get scored on during a powerplay and times you did get scored on for being out there for individual players? That'd solve a s*** ton of this PK nonsense going on about Maltby.

[Guest micah]

hahahahaa love that, who ever started this is a dumbass. so #1 a goon would eat up minutes of a grinder who would take an give a punch to stick up for a teamate and still play solid D. 2nd whatever dumbass said Ray sheiro or whoever( gm of the pens) had a goon and they won the cup because of that, umm no. they won because they played good hockey with speed and tired out the wings.... #3. if u praaise shiero so much go but a crosby jersey and suck a nut. 4th. the wings have a certain speed and puck possesion style game that a gooooon would not be able to compete with. for all you red neck jerkies who love to see a good fight, go watch your damn nascar and wait for tony stewart to throw another temper tantrum. hockey is in a new day of age, the use of a goon is less and less. and teams that use one in an everyday situation, are the teams that suck and struggle to bring in fans so they use them just ofr the entertainment of fights. GO HOME goon lovers!!

LOL. You're cute. Would you mind quoting the post that made the claim that the Pens won the Cup (show some respect for the greatest trophy in all of sports - the trophy that belongs to the goon-employing Pittsburgh Penguins, capitalise it) because of their goon? I mean sure, one could argure that no team that hasn't dressed a tough guy in the regular season has won the Cup, and yeah, many toughguys play their asses off, looking way more determined than any Wing in game 7 did - but I still think that'd be a pretty big stretch.

I think the GM of the Stanley Cup Champions deserves a little praise. Not every GM is currently a Stanley Cup Champion. Few people can say they are. Sidney Crosby is, Eric Godard is...

You are righ, it may be "a new day of age", whatever that means. The game is changing. Elite teams are tending to carry dedicated enforcers, fighting was up yet again this year. The trend will likely continue next year.

I'll bet anybody on this board an amount of money they choose that a team with an enforcer dressed for most games durring the regular season will win the Stanley Cup. Any takers? There are lots of teams out there that are SO good, that they are Championship contenders, even with one or more roster spots wasted on a fighter.

I love this new day of age!

I heard Eric Godard was hanging out with some hot strippers, doing good drugs, kicking people's asses and getting his scary sexy goon sweat all over the Stanley Cup last night. I wonder what Maltby was doing.

[Guest Shoreline]

I know you don't get a +/- while you are killing a penalty unless you get a shorty, but is there a +/- stat for the amount of times you were out there and didn't get scored on during a powerplay and times you did get scored on for being out there for individual players? That'd solve a s*** ton of this PK nonsense going on about Maltby.

You could just go over all 82 games played and tabulate how many times Maltby was on the box score of being on the ice while a power play goal was scored. That's about all I can think of. However, since the coaches analyze this, if the blame were put on Maltby, and the PK woes were being seen right from the start of the season, he wouldn't have continued to get lots of PK time, especially come playoff time.

Then, we can also look at the intent of the people taking a s*** all over Maltby, and those are the ones that are arguing that a goon would do better than he. I mean, I'm more than willing to take a s*** all over stupidity like that, but I won't go so far as to go through every game log, and ultimately find out what smart people already knew -- that the entire team had a bad PK year.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I presume that no one posting in this thread is actually anti-enforcer, right?

[Electrophile 3,554]

Enforcers / tough guys / goons are better for entertainment though. I do value the entertainment aspect of hockey. Last year's regular season was boring. Detroit winning the game is not the be all, end all for me. For some people on here, it seems like it is. Win at all costs , even if that means making it the most boring game to watch. I can't handle that.

To quote Col. Sherman T. Potter, "horse puckey!"

Give me a break. Good hockey is ALWAYS entertaining. You want "entertainment", go watch the WWF. I've never been bored by a Red Wings game, because I find the sport of hockey interesting, and therefore it's entertaining.

Entertaiment means a show and if it's a show you want, go to a tractor pull or something.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

To quote Col. Sherman T. Potter, "horse puckey!"

Give me a break. Good hockey is ALWAYS entertaining. You want "entertainment", go watch the WWF. I've never been bored by a Red Wings game, because I find the sport of hockey interesting, and therefore it's entertaining.

Entertaiment means a show and if it's a show you want, go to a tractor pull or something.

That's why fans at the JLA always fall asleep when there's a fight, right?

You're wrong in your analysis. Many Wings fans want to see more fights because they're tired of seeing teams afraid to fight back for all these seasons. I'm sure the attendance at the JLA would beneift from a little more entertainment.

Oh and there is no more WWF. Now it's the WWE. How can people still not know about that?