GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Regardless... you cited it. Hence, you weren't misrepresented. Now you're misrepresenting me by saying I misrepresented you. No, you told GS & T that he should be like GMR and only think nationally and not think for himself. So once again, you did misquote my ideas. I just don't like posting so much in this thread only to be labeled in such a way. Disagree with me and call my opinion on this issue stupid, but don't say that I haven't posted anything worthwile, because I'm sure that I haven't wasted my time completely. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Malkin is going to be my next vote. Yes over Zetterberg. Z's back scares the hell out of me. Zetterberg's back vs. Malkin's face. Which is scarier? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Hank has consistently been better in the playoffs than Pavel. Also, last year Datsyuk was never good in the playoffs, even before his injuries occurred. The only reason I didn't rank Hank higher is because his offensive numbers were too low last year for such an elite player. Thus, it's fair to ask how much of his offensive production in the past occurred due to Datsyuk? I would argue that Z's offensive production last year was down primarily due to the fact he was being used as a shutdown center and because the team was having defensive troubles on the blueline he had to play in more of a defensive role than he normally would, thus costing him offensive production. He also consistently was having his linemates shuffled, with guys like Filppula who are good players but not terribly productive offensively ending up on his wing, meaning he basically had to be "the guy" offensively on his line. In contrast, Datsyuk was playing with Hossa, one of the most talented snipers in the league, for 90% of the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Zetterberg's back vs. Malkin's face. Which is scarier? I'll see your 'Malkin's Face' and raise you 'a zit on Z's ass'. I've actually been pondering that statement I made and I honestly don't think I can vote Malkin over Z when it comes down to it. As much as Z's back eats at the back of my mind, I can't rate him below Malkin based on that. Malkin is obviously talented and has all the tools, but Z just outshines him as a 'complete' player. I still might sway to Malkin before next vote though. Not sure yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Regardless... you cited it. Hence, you weren't misrepresented. Now you're misrepresenting me by saying I misrepresented you. If 20 people are asked who they think is the best center, and 15 people pick Crosby while 5 pick Datsyuk, does that mean the 15 people all picked Crosby because he was being picked by others? If a lot of people think a guy is good or bad, there has to be a reason. Different people think different players are better or worse than others because they rank different attributes as more or less important, and also they will perhaps have differing opinions about a player's ability with regard to others; such as the question "Who's better defensively, Z or Dats?" You'll find different people answering differently. Nobody is wrong for having a different opinion, and maybe a lot of LGWers and many other people will disagree with GMR about who's better between Crosby vs. Datsyuk, but there are many people who would agree with him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 If 20 people are asked who they think is the best center, and 15 people pick Crosby while 5 pick Datsyuk, does that mean the 15 people all picked Crosby because he was being picked by others? If a lot of people think a guy is good or bad, there has to be a reason. Different people think different players are better or worse than others because they rank different attributes as more or less important, and also they will perhaps have differing opinions about a player's ability with regard to others; such as the question "Who's better defensively, Z or Dats?" You'll find different people answering differently. Nobody is wrong for having a different opinion, and maybe a lot of LGWers and many other people will disagree with GMR about who's better between Crosby vs. Datsyuk, but there are many people who would agree with him. Exactly. So using that logic to (help) back up a debate about which player is better is utterly pointless. Not sure if you were agreeing with me, but you made the point anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Datsyuk is the better defensive player by a fair margin....2 Selkes and higher plus minuses clearly prove that; but Crosby is also a better offensive player by a fair margin... as his 3 100 point seasons and much higher career points per game ratio prove. However, Crosby is still an above average defensive player who is getting better on that end every year and Datsyuk is an obviously a fantastic offensive player so they are both very complete players. However, my personal definition of the best player is who would i take to build a franchise around, which i realize other people's definition is not....For my reasons i look for leadership, abilitiy to handle pressure, excelling in the playoffs, as well as faceoffs, offense, defense,skating ability, passing,and the ability to make the players around them better. When taking all of these categories into consideration, i believe that based on my definition of "the best player in the game" then the best player is clearly Crosby Crosby over Dats? excelling in the playoffs? Did you watch the finals? Z shut down Crosby face-offs? Datsyuk is better, look at the numbers ability to handle pressure - has to be a toss up defense - clearly Dats skating ability - clearly Dats leadership - probably Crosby Offense - Crosby so based on your own factors, you ignored them? Huh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broken 16 381 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) Crosby over Dats? excelling in the playoffs? Did you watch the finals? Z shut down Crosby face-offs? Datsyuk is better, look at the numbers ability to handle pressure - has to be a toss up defense - clearly Dats skating ability - clearly Dats leadership - probably Crosby Offense - Crosby so based on your own factors, you ignored them? Huh? The only stats that count for Crosby supporters are the offensive numbers. Not even that really... mostly just the points. Individual awards and nominations don't count either... unless they apply to him. *and public opinion but I'm not allowed to say that without misrepresenting someone... so, shhhhhhhhhhhh. Edited September 7, 2009 by Broken 16 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) The only stats that count for Crosby supporters are the offensive numbers. Not even that really... mostly just the points. Points help, as well as the Hart, and Pearson trophies. = / Basically it comes down to how much you value defense in a player. Edited September 7, 2009 by Carman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Crosby over Dats? excelling in the playoffs? Did you watch the finals? Z shut down Crosby face-offs? Datsyuk is better, look at the numbers ability to handle pressure - has to be a toss up defense - clearly Dats skating ability - clearly Dats leadership - probably Crosby Offense - Crosby so based on your own factors, you ignored them? Huh? Really? Considering Crosby has the whole hockey world watching him, he's done pretty well for himself. Datsyuk doesn't have as much pressure, but hasn't played as well in the clutch. Don't know how you can say that's a toss up. Also, by playoffs I don't just mean Finals, I meant the entire playoffs. There's no argument for Datsyuk being better in the playoffs than Crosby. So all you have left for Datsyuk is once again defense and faceoffs. Crosby takes the rest. You gave Pavel more credit than he deserved in your post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 The only stats that count for Crosby supporters are the offensive numbers. Not even that really... mostly just the points. Individual awards and nominations don't count either... unless they apply to him. *and public opinion but I'm not allowed to say that without misrepresenting someone... so, shhhhhhhhhhhh. That could only be applied to Sid before he won the grand prize, the dude guided his team to back to back Stanley Cup finals, I hate him too, but cant ignore all the great things Crosby has done. And to the poster who was listing qualitys, Crosby is by a mile, a better skater. He's got breakaway speed and an incredible stride, Datsyuk is incredible, but his skating is pretty ugly, gets the job done, but in a comparision, he loses there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted September 7, 2009 Crosby over Dats? excelling in the playoffs? Did you watch the finals? Z shut down Crosby face-offs? Datsyuk is better, look at the numbers ability to handle pressure - has to be a toss up defense - clearly Dats skating ability - clearly Dats leadership - probably Crosby Offense - Crosby so based on your own factors, you ignored them? Huh? Really? Crosby has Datsyuk easily beat in those two categories. Pavel can't come anywhere close to Crosby in terms of playoff production. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Lets keep the votes coming. We're still under 20 right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevieY'sguy 1 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Crosby over Dats? excelling in the playoffs? Did you watch the finals? Z shut down Crosby face-offs? Datsyuk is better, look at the numbers ability to handle pressure - has to be a toss up defense - clearly Dats skating ability - clearly Dats leadership - probably Crosby Offense - Crosby so based on your own factors, you ignored them? Huh? I'll go through this biased assesment point by point. Excelling in the playoffs? Crosby has the same amount of career playoff points as Datsyuk and Pav has played exactly twice as many games..also everyone loves to point out the fact that Crosby got shut down during the finals...and he did BUT everyone fails to keep connecting the dots and realize that it took our best defensive pairing and our best defensive forward all focusing on Crosby just to shut him down....this in turn made sure that the rest of Pittsburgh players never had to worry about taking the ice against Z, Lids, etc. which GREATLY helped them out (cough, Maxime Talbot,cough) and is a big reason why Pitt won the series ....so true Sid got offensively shut down during the finals but the effort that it to accomplish that hurt the Wings enough to lose the series. Crosby is clearly the better playoff performer no question. Face-offs: I havent seen the regular season numbers but i know that Crosby had the highest face-off win percentage in last year's playoffs so even if Dat's number are better i do know that Crosby is one of probably the top 10 faceoff winners in the league so if datsyuk really is ahead of him, it isn't by much. I cannot make a judgement on this as i said, cuz i have yet to see the numbers. Ability to handle pressure: This is 100 percent Crosby, the guy is the only person ever to be labeled as the next wayne gretzky, a moniker that he got as a 16 year old kid....what has he done with it? he's 22, was named the captain of an NHL team at 19 (what were all we doing at the age of 19?), has an mvp and a stanley cup (being the youngest captain ever to win one)....id say he's handling pressure just fine. I'm not saying datsyuk didnt face pressure but Crosby has accomplished all of this at an age when Datsyuk wasn't even in the NHL yet. Defense: Datsyuk, no argument here..although crosby is better defensively than a lot of people seem to think. Skating ability: Crosby without a doubt...i have nothing else to say other then watch the tape. Leadership: Crosby clearly, he is a captain, pav isn't and Pav has a rough time speaking english Offense: Crosby, although datsyuk is closer to sid than the numbers say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Kuystad Levap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 I'll go through this biased assesment point by point. Excelling in the playoffs? Crosby has the same amount of career playoff points as Datsyuk and Pav has played exactly twice as many games..also everyone loves to point out the fact that Crosby got shut down during the finals...and he did BUT everyone fails to keep connecting the dots and realize that it took our best defensive pairing and our best defensive forward all focusing on Crosby just to shut him down....this in turn made sure that the rest of Pittsburgh players never had to worry about taking the ice against Z, Lids, etc. which GREATLY helped them out (cough, Maxime Talbot,cough) and is a big reason why Pitt won the series ....so true Sid got offensively shut down during the finals but the effort that it to accomplish that hurt the Wings enough to lose the series. Crosby is clearly the better playoff performer no question. Face-offs: I havent seen the regular season numbers but i know that Crosby had the highest face-off win percentage in last year's playoffs so even if Dat's number are better i do know that Crosby is one of probably the top 10 faceoff winners in the league so if datsyuk really is ahead of him, it isn't by much. I cannot make a judgement on this as i said, cuz i have yet to see the numbers. Ability to handle pressure: This is 100 percent Crosby, the guy is the only person ever to be labeled as the next wayne gretzky, a moniker that he got as a 16 year old kid....what has he done with it? he's 22, was named the captain of an NHL team at 19 (what were all we doing at the age of 19?), has an mvp and a stanley cup (being the youngest captain ever to win one)....id say he's handling pressure just fine. I'm not saying datsyuk didnt face pressure but Crosby has accomplished all of this at an age when Datsyuk wasn't even in the NHL yet. Defense: Datsyuk, no argument here..although crosby is better defensively than a lot of people seem to think. Skating ability: Crosby without a doubt...i have nothing else to say other then watch the tape. Leadership: Crosby clearly, he is a captain, pav isn't and Pav has a rough time speaking english Offense: Crosby, although datsyuk is closer to sid than the numbers say. Great post, and it's unfortunate that people who are biased will naturally overrate Datsyuk over Crosby, just because he plays for the Wings. I don't know how anyone can say that those 2 players are about equal in their ability to face pressure or in playoff performance. Pavel is a better defensive forward than Crosby and is better on draws, and that's about it. He has no other advantages over Sid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Great post, and it's unfortunate that people who are biased will naturally overrate Datsyuk over Crosby, just because he plays for the Wings. I don't know how anyone can say that those 2 players are about equal in their ability to face pressure or in playoff performance. Pavel is a better defensive forward than Crosby and is better on draws, and that's about it. He has no other advantages over Sid. Just thinking out loud.... Datsyuk is better on the PP (and PK) Better in shootouts (obviously not relevant to the playoffs) Better at hitting (Pav's hits are calculated masterpieces) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barrie 900 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Crosby sucks! Edit: I can't wait until he sees what it's like to have the target on his chest now. People aren't going to be so nice to him. It still bugs me seeing him with The Cup like he was a big hero in the Final. Z shut him down! Talbot, Malkin, and Fleury were the heros for the Pens. Edited September 8, 2009 by Barrie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Crosby sucks! Edit: I can't wait until he sees what it's like to have the target on his chest now. People aren't going to be so nice to him. It still bugs me seeing him with The Cup like he was a big hero in the Final. Z shut him down! Talbot, Malkin, and Fleury were the heros for the Pens. Crosby played his ass off the first 3 rounds, he was the deserving MVP... Malkin obviously played good, but he won Conn Smythe from outshining Crosby OFFENSIVELY in the finals. Talbot is the hero because he scored the GWG? Fleury played good too yes, but Crosby was the key ingredient... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Just thinking out loud.... Datsyuk is better on the PP (and PK) Better in shootouts (obviously not relevant to the playoffs) Better at hitting (Pav's hits are calculated masterpieces) Datsyuk's hits are few and far between. I think of Crosby as the more physical player, because he's more apt to play in front of the net, where he gets many of his goals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 9, 2009 Datsyuk's hits are few and far between. I think of Crosby as the more physical player, because he's more apt to play in front of the net, where he gets many of his goals. I'd say Crosby is "grittier", but Datsyuk is easily the better hitter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted September 9, 2009 God damn, I can't wait until it goes further down in the list... Come on just add Datsyuk as the 4th best and let's move on to Malkin/Parise/Zetterberg/Iginla debates . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 9, 2009 God damn, I can't wait until it goes further down in the list... Come on just add Datsyuk as the 4th best and let's move on to Malkin/Parise/Zetterberg/Iginla debates . I'll go ahead and officially vote for Datsyuk this round, as I can not vote both Crosby and Malkin ahead of him with a clear conscience. Malkin is next -- then you have quite a debate between Kovalchuk/Iginla/Thornton/Getzlaf/Parise/Zetterberg/Brodeur/Luongo/Chara Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted September 9, 2009 Okay round 4 is over. Here's how it all tallied up: Datsyuk: 14 votes (70%) Malkin: 4 votes (20%) Zetterberg: 2 votes (10%) total of 20 votes. 1) Ovechkin 2) Lidstrom 3) Crosby 4) Datsyuk Now for round 5! Remember to bold your answer choice to make it easier to count a vote amidst all the debating, and get those votes in! The total vote count has steadily been declining! I'll vote for Malkin to start things off as 5th best player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) Malkin. Edited September 9, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
