Is Datsyuk a lock for the Selke?

[Carman 387]

What stats are those?

Has more hits, blocked shots, 200 more faceoffs won, points, and less giveaways.

Not that I agree with Kesler over Datsyuk.

[titanium2 867]

Drapes and Madden are the only two recent guys I can think of who best fit the defensive forward description, though there may be others I'm forgetting. And even then Draper didn't win it until the year he scored 24 goals.

I think Lehtinen fits the description, no?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think Lehtinen fits the description, no?

Ah, forgot about him. Yes, definitely.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

and Peca

[dat's sick 1,002]

Has more hits, blocked shots, 200 more faceoffs won, points, and less giveaways.

Takeaways/giveaways are kind of a wash. Pav has a lot more takeaways. More giveaways also come from having the puck a lot, being a playmaker and always trying to create offense.

Kesler only has 6 points more, and Pav has more goals. I'm betting Pav will be even closer in points by seasons end.

Kesler has 8 more hits in 2 more games played. Hardly worlds apart.

Kesler has won more faceoffs, but Pav has a better percentage (even if it's by only a little).

Blocked shot is true though, Kesler has a lot more. Also has to do with him having a lot more PK-time. Those two things are two of the biggest things Kesler has over Pav.

Pav has a lot better +/- though, on a worse team. He also has a lot less PIM, I don't know how much that matters in terms of Selke voting, but not putting your team on the PK should be a positive thing for a defensive forward.

Bottom line is they both have the edge in various statistical categories. It's very even overall.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

The problem I have is the PK time. If Datsyu is the best defensive forward in the league, why is there 7 forwards on his team that have more PK time then him? Kesler is Vancouver's first choice on the PK. Also, Kesler's 66 blocked shots blows Datsyuk's 25 out of the water.

with all the injuries the wings had this year to guys like franzen and homer, they need dats and z to kill less penalties than usual to keep them more fresh in order to score. unfortunatelyy, they havn't had very good offensive seasons considering who they are, but having the likes of helm, draper, eaves, miller, etc...the wings have had a pretty good pk this year.

maybe next season franzen won't get injured in the 2nd game of the season and there will be a couple more guys that can score and dats and z can kill more penalties and play slightly less 5 on 5 time to ensure their votes for the selke...or the above mentioned guys can keep doing a good job. i love role players, they helped the wings win 4 cups in 12 years.

[eva unit zero 271]

The idea that a majority of voters here think Datsyuk is going to win, and a large number think he is a lockc, is absolutely sickening.

Datsyuk is a very good defensive forward, one of the ten or twenty best in the league, but despite his two Selkes, I don't think he has ever even been the best defensive forward on his team, let alone in the league.

Kesler is the guy who should win it, but there are many other guys whose names could be mentioned as well. I'm not going to bother with bringing up this guy or that because that stuff just starts arguments, but my point is that while Datsyuk might be a candidate, the only reason he ever won the Selke is because he played excellent defense, was a very good offensive forward, and more importantly played flashy, high profile defense.

Zetterberg deserved it more than Dats both of the past two seasons, but because Z didn't put up as many points and isn't as flashy, he didn't get the recognition. And even then, there are guys who were probably just as good as Z defensively. But this year and last, to say Dats is more deserving than Z is to ignore one simple fact: with all of the defensively skilled lines the Wings have, Z is ALWAYS put against the opposition's top offensive line, and he is always on the top offensive forward. Z vs Crosby in the finals, remember? When you are putting up a poll about "Is this guy a lock to win the Selke? Will he win it?" you should probably use your team's top shutdown forward rather than a guy who is simply one of the league's better defensive forwards and a candidate because he's a great two-way forward.

It's like the reason Doug Gilmour won it in 1993. He wasn't better defensively that year than Fedorov, Carbonneau, Brind'Amour, Francis, Linden, Tikkanen, Kurri, or any of the other top end defensive forwards in the league at the time. He simply scored 127 points, one of only three times he broke the century mark, and based on the 83 games he played that season, 47.4 more points than his career average (he retired as a 2nd/3rd liner still scoring at basically .5 PPG) and 6.7 goals more than his career average, plus 40.7 assists more than his career average.

Kesler was a contender for the Selke last season, so his defensive capabilities are already known and considered among the elite defensive forwards. Now he has added strong offensive performance to that. Datsyuk, meanwhile, has performed well below his normal offensive output. Voters will think "his overall performance is below par" while they look at Kesler and think "He has greatly improved." and so, there goes any chances of Datsyuk beating Kesler. Offense shouldn't factor in the voting, but it does. Either highly skilled offensive players are recognized as top players and then their defense is recognized after their team starts relying on them as much as any defensive specialist (Yzerman, Gilmour, Francis, Sakic, Modano, Brind'Amour) or the player is a recognized defensive specialist who has an offensive improvement, gaining them a higher profile and consideration for the award (Lehtinen, Draper, Peca, Madden, Conroy) but only rarely is the player a bonafide top defensive forward who is receiving consideration solely for his defensive abilities. Multiple Selke winner Guy Carbonneau was one such forward.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The idea that a majority of voters here think Datsyuk is going to win, and a large number think he is a lockc, is absolutely sickening.

Datsyuk is a very good defensive forward, one of the ten or twenty best in the league, but despite his two Selkes, I don't think he has ever even been the best defensive forward on his team, let alone in the league.

Kesler is the guy who should win it, but there are many other guys whose names could be mentioned as well. I'm not going to bother with bringing up this guy or that because that stuff just starts arguments, but my point is that while Datsyuk might be a candidate, the only reason he ever won the Selke is because he played excellent defense, was a very good offensive forward, and more importantly played flashy, high profile defense.

Zetterberg deserved it more than Dats both of the past two seasons, but because Z didn't put up as many points and isn't as flashy, he didn't get the recognition. And even then, there are guys who were probably just as good as Z defensively. But this year and last, to say Dats is more deserving than Z is to ignore one simple fact: with all of the defensively skilled lines the Wings have, Z is ALWAYS put against the opposition's top offensive line, and he is always on the top offensive forward. Z vs Crosby in the finals, remember? When you are putting up a poll about "Is this guy a lock to win the Selke? Will he win it?" you should probably use your team's top shutdown forward rather than a guy who is simply one of the league's better defensive forwards and a candidate because he's a great two-way forward.

It's like the reason Doug Gilmour won it in 1993. He wasn't better defensively that year than Fedorov, Carbonneau, Brind'Amour, Francis, Linden, Tikkanen, Kurri, or any of the other top end defensive forwards in the league at the time. He simply scored 127 points, one of only three times he broke the century mark, and based on the 83 games he played that season, 47.4 more points than his career average (he retired as a 2nd/3rd liner still scoring at basically .5 PPG) and 6.7 goals more than his career average, plus 40.7 assists more than his career average.

Kesler was a contender for the Selke last season, so his defensive capabilities are already known and considered among the elite defensive forwards. Now he has added strong offensive performance to that. Datsyuk, meanwhile, has performed well below his normal offensive output. Voters will think "his overall performance is below par" while they look at Kesler and think "He has greatly improved." and so, there goes any chances of Datsyuk beating Kesler. Offense shouldn't factor in the voting, but it does. Either highly skilled offensive players are recognized as top players and then their defense is recognized after their team starts relying on them as much as any defensive specialist (Yzerman, Gilmour, Francis, Sakic, Modano, Brind'Amour) or the player is a recognized defensive specialist who has an offensive improvement, gaining them a higher profile and consideration for the award (Lehtinen, Draper, Peca, Madden, Conroy) but only rarely is the player a bonafide top defensive forward who is receiving consideration solely for his defensive abilities. Multiple Selke winner Guy Carbonneau was one such forward.

I wanted to chime in before you got grief for this post. I think sickening might be overstating it a bit, dont you? this is a Wings fan forum after all.

But Dats's worthiness aside, I think you're spot on about the way the award tends to be given. And specifically why Kesler may win this year over Datsyuk this season. As I mentioned before, it's no coincidence that Draper finally won the year he scored 24 goals. Though he had other seasons he was probably as good or better defensive forward.

In a perfect NHL, or my perfect NHL anyway, the award would go more to the spirit with which I think it was intended. Guys like Bob Gainey and Carbonneu. Or to put it in terms of Wings, guys like Drapes, or hopefully in a season or two, Helm.

Edited March 24, 2010 by haroldsnepsts

[ceebs 2]

Don't think Dats is a lock, nor will he win. His biggest asset is his takeaways... but no one is looking at the fact he is leading his team in giveaways. I think it's a given that the leagues top defensive forward should be not be leading his team in this category... especially on a team featuring Rafi and Bertuzzi. On top of that as others mentioned his pk time is way down. And finally, for the reasons he should not have won it in past years: he isn't even his teams top matchup/shutdown player.

Edited March 25, 2010 by ceebs

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Don't think Dats is a lock, nor will he win. His biggest asset is his takeaways... but no one is looking at the fact he is leading his team in giveaways. I think it's a given that the leagues top defensive forward should be not be leading his team in this category... especially on a team featuring Rafi and Bertuzzi.

He's the team's number one center so he has the puck all the time, and he prefers to pass the puck so it's more likely to get picked off. It's up there but other top line players are in the same orbit (Thornton, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc.). Most of his giveaways aren't of the killer variety like the above mentioned and his net giveaways/takeaways is through the roof. He's definitely not the Wings go-to guy defensively but I don't think the giveaways in particular reflect badly on his defensive prowess.

[Nev 1,085]

I think Lehtinen fits the description, no?

As I pointed out earlier, Lehtinen has five 20 goal seasons and two 30 goal seasons. Makes him a 2-way player in my book.

[toby91_ca 620]

I caught a bit of the Pens vs. Caps game last night and for what it's worth (which probably isn't much), one of the colour guys showed a grafic of his top 3 guys regarding the Selke and he had Staal, Backstrom and Kesler.

I think, regardless of how much it should matter (which isn't much if you ask me), Datsyuk's +/- and takeaway stats in the past 2 years pushed him to the award. With his +/- very low this year and his scoring down (shoudln't matter, but likely will in the voters eyes), I don't see him winning this year and he may not even be amongst the top 3 vote getters.

[dat's sick 1,002]

I caught a bit of the Pens vs. Caps game last night and for what it's worth (which probably isn't much), one of the colour guys showed a grafic of his top 3 guys regarding the Selke and he had Staal, Backstrom and Kesler.

For what it's worth both Pittsburgh's and Washington's color guys are horrible.

[esteef 2,679]

For what it's worth both Pittsburgh's and Washington's color guys are horrible.

Tru dat, but I do like the Washington play by play guy though. He kinda growls when he makes his calls sometimes. It's funny.

esteef

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Realistically I don't think any Wings are winning awards this year. Datsyuk has won the last two - so unlikely as he has not blown away the competition.

But let's focus on making some noise as a lower seed this POs - a different route, a different feel, but I like it and am ready for the ride....

[Sprsquirt7 45]

Was just looking at some stats and thought i'd revive this thread since the season is over. Most people in the thread have leaned towards kesler as the favorite. I'm not sure about this but is it remotely possible for the best two way forward in the league to only have a +1? Kesler is a +1 on a team that has the second most goals scored in the league. Regardless of shorthanded time on ice or blocked shots, a +1 is nothing even close to being a top 2 way forward. Don't get me wrong +/- isn't the only factor because obviously ovechkin isn't this amazing defensive player, but the +/- is the validation to the other factors being considered in my opinion. If someone has all the other stats but a low +/- it doesn't shine as well to me.

[dicksmack 33]

Pierre LeBrun's (ESPN) pick is Datsyuk I still think Datsyuk is a good candidate and he will at least be a finalist. There's no one to point to say they are the favorite. Datsyuk's 70 pts, +17, #1 rank in takeaways put's him right up there. There's no better stick checker in the game and I'd venture to say he's among the best ever at this.

[eva unit zero 271]

The top ten guys will probably be IMHO, in alphabetical order:

Datsyuk, Kesler, M.Koivu, Lehtinen, Madden, Pahlsson, M.Richards, Staal, Toews, Zetterberg

[T-Ruff 47]

I'd bet on Kesler to win and if I had to pick runner ups: M. Richards & Datsyuk

[jeff48109 474]

Was just looking at some stats and thought i'd revive this thread since the season is over. Most people in the thread have leaned towards kesler as the favorite. I'm not sure about this but is it remotely possible for the best two way forward in the league to only have a +1? Kesler is a +1 on a team that has the second most goals scored in the league. Regardless of shorthanded time on ice or blocked shots, a +1 is nothing even close to being a top 2 way forward. Don't get me wrong +/- isn't the only factor because obviously ovechkin isn't this amazing defensive player, but the +/- is the validation to the other factors being considered in my opinion. If someone has all the other stats but a low +/- it doesn't shine as well to me.

I think its mind boggling. Is there a logical reason that someone who is touted as a great defensive forward, who has a career year in points and who is on a high scoring team only get a +1? His splits are interesting too. a +13 at home, but -12 away. Yikes. For what it's worth, Vancouver is the only playoff team in the West with a losing record on the road.

[toby91_ca 620]

For what it's worth, Vancouver is the only playoff team in the West with a losing record on the road.

Technically, Detroit (19-14-8) = 19 wins, 22 losses and Colorado (19-6-6) = 19 wins, 22 losses, have losing records on the road as well.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

i hope a good american kid like Kesler wins it instead of another heartless russian

[Finnish Wing 110]

Frans Nielsen? lol

I always try to trade that guy away when trying to rebuild Islanders in the Be a GM -mode.