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HockeytownRules19

Wings release Aaron Downey

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It's not.

I'm just refuting the arguments people make about how enforcers are obsolete nowadays, despite the fact that just about every team has a pure goon that doesn't have much skill, and takes playing time away from those in the minors with more talent. The Wings did the same with May and Downey in recent history.

Apparently, some of posters here think they're smarter than most GM's in the NHL on this issue.

I'm not saying they are "obsolete" in today's NHL.

I'm simply saying their role is hardly as much of a necessity as it used to be. Remember that whole instigator rule they put in place?

Also, still waiting on the pure enforcer from every team. Would be great.

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From our current roster who would you sit in place of the pure enforcer? And how many of the other GM's in the league have had as much success as Holland. I may not like very thing he does either but his record does speak for itself. I would rather have Abdlekader in there developing his abilites (hitting and fighting included) over a goon. I would rather a guy like the Mule learn to throw a huge body check to keep ppl honest then a goon... and I was happy to hear Big Bert flex some muscle and hope he does it some more to keep ppl honest.

Here this is on Mlive.com today: Adbelkader pegged to provide key physical presence...

An enforcer as the 13th forward wouldn't take playing time away from any developing young players because having young talented guys as the 13th forward is dumb. When injuries come or we're in a tough game we can insert an enforcer.

Explain how that hurts the development of young players?

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Cups which Detroit won in the past: Rosters from 96-97 and/or 97-98, Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Rouse, Jamie Macouin, Bob Rouse, Ward, Konstantinov... That's toughnes and skills my friend...

2002 - We had McCarty, Shanahan...

2008 - Shadow of Mcarty

Good point. Anyone else noticing the trend?

In 96-98 the team was stacked with fighters (who could still play hockey)

In '02 the team had two 'fighters' (even though enforcer slappies on LGW would condemn Shanny as a fighter in 2002 - but now it's used as a 'point'. funny how that works)

in 2008 (Mac was brought back more for loyalty and less to enforce)

in 2010 (no pure enforcers, but players willing to fight - Abdelkader, Ericsson, Salei)

The trend speaks for itself. This is the Nu NHL where enforcers aren't as important as they were in the 90's.

The Secret likes this

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An enforcer as the 13th forward wouldn't take playing time away from any developing young players because having young talented guys as the 13th forward is dumb. When injuries come or we're in a tough game we can insert an enforcer.

Explain how that hurts the development of young players?

Or, we can let the younger more talented players we already have play and develop and have the 13th spot for the guy who has the best chance at earning the next spot. The enforcer will not challenge anyone for playing time nor will he be a motivating factor for current roster players to play harder because there is someone right behind them eager and working to take the spot from them. What benefit did we get from either Downey or May that we could not have lived without? I cannot think of one time where I was glad to have them on the team because their presence did anything really... in the lineup or not

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Or, we can let the younger more talented players we already have play and develop and have the 13th spot for the guy who has the best chance at earning the next spot. The enforcer will not challenge anyone for playing time nor will he be a motivating factor for current roster players to play harder because there is someone right behind them eager and working to take the spot from them. What benefit did we get from either Downey or May that we could not have lived without? I cannot think of one time where I was glad to have them on the team because their presence did anything really... in the lineup or not

I don't understand this logic, especially when the Wings are likely to carry 14 forwards this year. How would it help Tatar (or any other prospect) develop if he is sitting in the press-box for half of the season? Let the prospects play in GR where they can see big minutes every night, and call them up when they are needed. Having Downey play ~40 games when someone needs a break (but not long enough for a call-up) does nothing to hurt the development of prospects. It likely helps IMO.

ManLuv4Clears and F.Michael like this

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It's not.

I'm just refuting the arguments people make about how enforcers are obsolete nowadays, despite the fact that just about every team has a pure goon that doesn't have much skill, and takes playing time away from those in the minors with more talent. The Wings did the same with May and Downey in recent history.

Apparently, some of posters here think they're smarter than most GM's in the NHL on this issue.

I think you're overestimating the talent most teams have in their systems.

Drew Miller will likely be our 13th forward. Most teams struggle to fill their 3rd lines with players that good. The majority of 4th liners and bench forwards around the league are fringe NHLers who aren't going to put up more than 10-15 points at best. Most AHL forwards either aren't any better or are being kept in the AHL for development reasons, or high draft picks that would cost substantionally more.

A team looking to fill out the bottom of their forward roster is likely choosing between guys with marginal talent. Some might score a few more points than others, but lack a physical game of defense. Some might play physical and maybe fight, maybe play decent defense, but with little offense. Some are good fighters and usually decently physical, but are a bit worse in other areas. None of those things is particularly valuable.

I think it's less about how much teams value having an enforcer than it is about how little they value a slightly better player who can't play physical.

Either way, the Wings have proven they can be successful without an enforcer or fighting, and we already have more forwards than will fit on the roster. Come back next year when we might have a couple spots open.

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I think that GMR is just being a pessimistic perfectionist, as is normal for him. This is the guy who vehemently stated last season that the Wings would be lucky to make the playoffs and that they'd NEVER make something as high as 5th seed; he's one of those who cried bloody murder at the '08 trade deadline and predicted doom and gloom; he's the one who, just as now, finds something to lament about during every offseason; and he's the guy who, with behavior indicating a complex of entitlement, often passionately yells and complains whenever the Wings lose a game.

GMR: I don't think you're a bad person, but I think you'd be happier if you were optimistic more often. The Red Wings are a fantastic organization, and more than any other team, they've given their fans a ton to cheer about over the last 15 years. You should feel lucky and grateful rather than feeling pessimistic when the team isn't absolutely perfect.

Edited by Crymson

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I think that GMR is just being a pessimistic perfectionist, as is normal for him. This is the guy who vehemently stated last season that the Wings would be lucky to make the playoffs and that they'd NEVER make something as high as 5th seed; he's one of those who cried bloody murder at the '08 trade deadline and predicted doom and gloom; he's the one who, just as now, finds something to lament about during every offseason; and he's the guy who, with behavior indicating a complex of entitlement, often passionately yells and complains whenever the Wings lose a game.

GMR: I don't think you're a bad person, but I think you'd be happier if you were optimistic more often. The Red Wings are a fantastic organization, and more than any other team, they've given their fans a ton to cheer about over the last 15 years. You should feel lucky and grateful rather than feeling pessimistic when the team isn't absolutely perfect.

Your man hate for me is amazing.

You probably have a lot more people on this site who dislike you than those who dislike me. There's a reason for that, and posts like the one you just made are perfect example as to why.

Nothing analytical at all about your post. Totally off topic and self righteous. Funny thing is that I've posted less in this thread than any other pro-enforcer people. Probably some pathetic attempt to start a flame war. I ought to have my head examined for even responding to it.

Oh, and I am a bad person, so you got that wrong too.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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I'm not saying they are "obsolete" in today's NHL.

I'm simply saying their role is hardly as much of a necessity as it used to be. Remember that whole instigator rule they put in place?

Also, still waiting on the pure enforcer from every team. Would be great.

I didn't say every team. I said most teams.

Most teams do carry a pure enforcer.

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But would Orpik have thrown any cheapshots after the fight had he stayed in the game? Most enforcers are reactive and this usually works well to reduce cheapshots. If Orpik is playing recklessly and is forced to fight, he is less likely to continue his reckless play knowing he will be physically confronted in a fight.

Who cares at that point? Franzen is already hurt and the damage is done. I've been made to believe that having Downey around prevented cheapshots according to this thread.

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Your man hate for me is amazing.

You probably have a lot more people on this site who dislike you than those who dislike me. There's a reason for that, and posts like the one you just made are perfect example as to why.

Nothing analytical at all about your post. Totally off topic and self righteous. Funny thing is that I've posted less in this thread than any other pro-enforcer people. Probably some pathetic attempt to start a flame war. I ought to have my head examined for even responding to it.

What an excellent and mature response! You ignored everything I said, and retorted instead with "More people like me than like you. I'm more popular than you are! So shut up!" That's an excellent way for you to avoid any accountability for your behavior.

Well, whatever.

Anyway, I'll repeat my point that dedicated enforcers are wastes of a roster spot. The anger about Downey being waived is rather silly, seeing as that we'll already need to let go of somebody in order to trim the roster to the necessary number.

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What an excellent and mature response! You ignored everything I said, and retorted instead with "More people like me than like you. I'm more popular than you are! So shut up!" That's an excellent way for you to avoid any accountability for your behavior.

Well, whatever.

Anyway, I'll repeat my point that dedicated enforcers are wastes of a roster spot. The anger about Downey being waived is rather silly, seeing as that we'll already need to let go of somebody in order to trim the roster to the necessary number.

You didn't say anything about Downey in your last post. It was about as analytical as an episode of Jersey Shore. There was nothing substantive to respond to. This post is a little better, since it actually has a sentence that mentions the topic.

No one is angry with Downey being waived. Making educated complaints is not the same thing as being angry. Also, no one is surprised that he was waived. We're just defending the argument that there is a place for enforcers in the NHL, even the pure enforcers with limited skills. If you're not convinced as to strength of our argument, then that's no surprise either. No one ever changes their mind after a debate on LGW. The spirit of a debate is why we come here.

That's all this topic was about, until you decided to turn it into some finger pointing contest.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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Who cares at that point? Franzen is already hurt and the damage is done. I've been made to believe that having Downey around prevented cheapshots according to this thread.

Well, the belief that enforcers prevent anything is not an exact science, in fact, it's more like a religious belief or superstition that's easily defeated by conventional wisdom at best. Enforcers only real use is bringing energy by hitting stuff, maybe creating a turnover through a check, and yay, puck ends up in the back of the net. However, there are an enormous amount, today, of muckers and grinders who do a far better job at that, and are not only decent two-way players, but have a far less disposition to put their team on the penalty kill due to actually being useful for scoring or defending on occasion. Wings might survive a half minute being pinned in their own defensive zone with a 4th line muck and grind squad against an opposing 1st/scoring line, but the enforcer is the one who is going to be exploited first and foremost, either by a skill player or a power forward. I guess if the guy had the name Boogaard, that would scare the puck handler so much he would fumble the puck or just pass it to Boogie and turtle. The effects an enforcer has on opposing teams/players is, today, greatly exaggerated by enforcer slappies. The mere presence of one on a team is enough to somehow get them to the Stanley Cup. Why? Because "most/all teams" have one. Hey guys, beer is the key behind winning cups. Every single team's arena has beer, right? If not every one, damn close. I bet teams that won the Stanley Cup were selling beer, so if you don't want to win a cup, go beer-less.

Oh, and on a personal note, you're not nearly as bad as you used to be GMR, and today, there's a handful of worse slappies. I could have swore you were once on my ignore list, because at one point it became way too much of a lure to use an insult as a retort to this kind of thinking, but I think I cleaned it out some time ago.

Edited by Shoreline

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I took you off my ignore list the day Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels shook hands on Raw.

I figured, what the hell. :hehe:

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Well, the belief that enforcers prevent anything is not an exact science, in fact, it's more like a religious belief or superstition that's easily defeated by conventional wisdom at best. Enforcers only real use is bringing energy by hitting stuff, maybe creating a turnover through a check, and yay, puck ends up in the back of the net. However, there are an enormous amount, today, of muckers and grinders who do a far better job at that, and are not only decent two-way players, but have a far less disposition to put their team on the penalty kill due to actually being useful for scoring or defending on occasion. Wings might survive a half minute being pinned in their own defensive zone with a 4th line muck and grind squad against an opposing 1st/scoring line, but the enforcer is the one who is going to be exploited first and foremost, either by a skill player or a power forward. I guess if the guy had the name Boogaard, that would scare the puck handler so much he would fumble the puck or just pass it to Boogie and turtle. The effects an enforcer has on opposing teams/players is, today, greatly exaggerated by enforcer slappies. The mere presence of one on a team is enough to somehow get them to the Stanley Cup. Why? Because "most/all teams" have one. Hey guys, beer is the key behind winning cups. Every single team's arena has beer, right? If not every one, damn close. I bet teams that won the Stanley Cup were selling beer, so if you don't want to win a cup, go beer-less.

Oh, and on a personal note, you're not nearly as bad as you used to be, and today, there's a handful of worse slappies. I could have swore you were once on my ignore list, because at one point it became way too much of a lure to use an insult as a retort to this kind of thinking, but I think I cleaned it out some time ago.

This is what drives me nuts about the enforcer arguments. Where has anyone ever said something close to that in a serious fashion? It's a straw man that only exacerbates the arguing. you can say you're kidding, but that argument constitutes half your post. Seems a bit much if you're being sarcastic.

There is a legitimate issue and difference of opinion here that you would think would be possible to debate.

Aside from the things you mention, like providing energy by hitting, enforcers can also provide energy and improve team morale by laying a well timed beat down. Or even just sticking up for a teammate who got cheapshotted. That means something to players. It's been said over and over again by players throughout the league over the years. They like when someone has their back or helps keep the flies off.

Another benefit is that guys often will play bigger if there's guys on the team who will drop the gloves and stick up for them. Non-fighters become more willing to muck it up and throw the extra hit. You can see it at even the more casual levels of sports. If the game is getting physical, you're more likely to get into it if there's someone on your team who can help handle things when it gets heated.

The big question is if that's worth a roster spot for a guy like Downey who can't do much else. In Downey's specific case, I don't think it is worth it. But the enforcer debate is not about whether or not they're the missing piece to the team winning the Cup. or at least it shouldn't be since most issues here aren't weighed in that context. Will pairing Ericsson with Lidstrom win us the Cup? Will keeping Miller or Ritola win us the Cup?

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I took you off my ignore list the day Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels shook hands on Raw.

I figured, what the hell. :hehe:

Did Hart follow it up with a chair to the head and a Stone Cold Stunner? :ph34r:

I kid, I kid..

I honestly wasn't much into caring about Downey being signed. I hope for the best for whichever Wing gets signed, and I certainly never sling poo at them unless they are like a shoddy minor league player, but the love affair with Downey makes as much sense as the Canucks with Rory Fitzpatrick.

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Downey is a class act, what a great guy.

I have to agree, very down to earth guy, one of the nicest Wings i've ever spoken to, during the 08 cup run i've talked to him many of times in the hotel lobby of MotorCity Casino. I hope he finds an office or coaching job even if its not in the NHL.

Good luck

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Who cares at that point? Franzen is already hurt and the damage is done. I've been made to believe that having Downey around prevented cheapshots according to this thread.

I'm not arguing that point though- I don't think anyone is arguing that enforcers prevent all/most injuries. The point is that the total number of cheapshots is decreased when a fighter is dressed and fights the opposing reckless players. There will be a number of cheapshots before the enforcer can engage, but they will decrease afterward.

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Let me help you out, GMR. Pure enforcers (or "goons") carried by each team:

Anaheim: George Parros

Dallas: Krys Barch, Adam Burish

Phoenix: Paul Bissonnette

Los Angeles: Richard Clune

San Jose: Jamal Mayers, Frazer McLaren

Chicago: John Scott

St. Louis: Cam Janssen

Columbus: Jared Boll, Derek Dorsett

Nashville: Wade Belak

Calgary: Raitis Ivanans

Edmonton: Zack Stortini, Steve MacIntyre

Minnesota: Brad Staubitz

Colorado: David Koci

Vancouver: Darcy Hordichuk

Philadelphia: Jody Shelley

Pittsburgh: Eric Godard

NYR: Derek Boogaard

NYI: Trevor Gillies, Zenon Konopka

New Jersey: Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond

Toronto: Colton Orr, Jay Rosehill

Boston: Shawn Thornton, Brian McGrattan

Montreal: Ryan White

Buffalo: Cody McCormick

Ottawa: Matt Carkner

Atlanta: Eric Boulton, Boris Valabik

Washington: D.J. King, John Erskine

Florida: Andrew Peters

Tampa Bay: Nate Thompson

Carolina: Jay Harrison

This list excludes guys who can puck the puck in the net once in a blue moon. I will make one including guys who are a bit more versatile, but rack up tons of fights and penalty minutes as well, just to show how soft this team really is.

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This is what drives me nuts about the enforcer arguments. Where has anyone ever said something close to that in a serious fashion? It's a straw man that only exacerbates the arguing. you can say you're kidding, but that argument constitutes half your post. Seems a bit much if you're being sarcastic.

There is a legitimate issue and difference of opinion here that you would think would be possible to debate.

Aside from the things you mention, like providing energy by hitting, enforcers can also provide energy and improve team morale by laying a well timed beat down. Or even just sticking up for a teammate who got cheapshotted. That means something to players. It's been said over and over again by players throughout the league over the years. They like when someone has their back or helps keep the flies off.

Another benefit is that guys often will play bigger if there's guys on the team who will drop the gloves and stick up for them. Non-fighters become more willing to muck it up and throw the extra hit. You can see it at even the more casual levels of sports. If the game is getting physical, you're more likely to get into it if there's someone on your team who can help handle things when it gets heated.

The big question is if that's worth a roster spot for a guy like Downey who can't do much else. In Downey's specific case, I don't think it is worth it. But the enforcer debate is not about whether or not they're the missing piece to the team winning the Cup. or at least it shouldn't be since most issues here aren't weighed in that context. Will pairing Ericsson with Lidstrom win us the Cup? Will keeping Miller or Ritola win us the Cup?

:thumbup:

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This list excludes guys who can puck the puck in the net once in a blue moon. I will make one including guys who are a bit more versatile, but rack up tons of fights and penalty minutes as well, just to show how soft this team really is.

Because being soft or not only has to do with the amount of staged fights they get?

Thank you for putting the time to list the "enforcers" on each team, though. Took an extra look and learned something about those guys.

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I believe that Rosehill will have to be placed on waivers to join the Marlies. If the Wings are looking for an enforcer, he would be an excellent choice. He had 2 points in 15 games with the Leafs last season, and probably wouldn't mind sitting in the press-box for a while if he can stay up with the Wings. While it isn't likely, I would love to see this happen.

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I believe that Rosehill will have to be placed on waivers to join the Marlies. If the Wings are looking for an enforcer, he would be an excellent choice. He had 2 points in 15 games with the Leafs last season, and probably wouldn't mind sitting in the press-box for a while if he can stay up with the Wings. While it isn't likely, I would love to see this happen.

Agreed. Rosehill needs to get out of Toronto, he is a pretty good hockey player but in his role with Brown and Orr ahead of him he isn't needed there.

He can skate as fast if not faster then Miller, throws big hits and would fight 30 times a year. I'm surprised he hasn't got a shot at the NHL full time yet.

And I just wanna say one thing, all the anti enforcer people who say the wings can win without toughness in the line up, I would love proof of that because there hasn't been a cup won without a straight up enforcer in the line up for the wings. I'm not saying I want someone like Downey who I think is past his prime but I would like to see us draft some 6'4 crazy sob and put him in the line up. I just don't get how anti enforcer people can say the wings have proven time and time again they can win without a goon when it has never actually happeened

Edited by newfy

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