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Vladifan

Hudler?

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Alright I am done, there is no reason for a negative 12 for simply making a placeholder for the conversation we always have.

It was done so every other thread doesn't turn into it.

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Got like plus three for running a draft thread that took my entire evening and get a negative 12 for a post to try and keep other threads clean. I am sick of anonymous internet hate.

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Got like plus three for running a draft thread that took my entire evening and get a negative 12 for a post to try and keep other threads clean. I am sick of anonymous internet hate.

I didn't even know I could plus or minus you! How about posting something about Hudler instead of whining? Then I'll give you a plus, ok?

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Ruutu? He's almost 29 and has had severe back and ankle injuries. His top production levels are no better than what Hudler has put up or what Filppula is expected to put up, and he did it playing much better time and opportunity. Hudler is younger, much more durable, knows the system, and has developed chemistry with the guys on the team.

Gaustad? We're going to wait for Hudler's trade value to increase so we can trade him for a fourth line faceoff specialist? If Holland wanted a fourth line faceoff specialist, Ryan Johnson would be on the team.

Moen and Chimera are equally ridiculous suggestions. It would hardly take a productive top-six forward to get those guys, although I know many here wouldn't trade them for anything less than that.

Hemsky is highly skilled but very fragile. He also has had attitude issues, so it's unlikely at best.

Umberger. Now we finally have a realistic suggestion. Except he's three years older and plays for a division rival. On the Wings, he realistically would fit in as a third liner, with Homer or Bert moving into Hudler's vacated top-six spot.

Which Kostitsyn are you talking about? Either would be decent as supplemental scoring, but neither would be a good replacement for Hudler.

No I never said trade Huder for Gaustad or Chimera or Moen, just that they could be good pieces to add to the third line for a deep playoff run and some depth scoring.

Now if the wings could trade Hudler for Ruutu straight up theyre laughing. Hes a year older sure but he also is a league leader in hits, a big body and can play center. Hudler may put up 50 or so points but doesnt provide other things like Ruutu can especially since Ruutu provides something the wings lack in spades.

And yeah he produces what Filppula "should" and likely what Hudler should as well but bottom line is they havent done much of it lately wheil Ruutu has. If they can get a sub 30, 6'2, powerforward for a second line center for Hudler than they shouldnt hesitate whatsoever

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Funny how the Hudler bashing continues to exist.

FACTS:

Hudler has played on the third line for most of his career in Detroit.

Hudler has a .5 points a game average (regular season/playoffs) over his career in Detroit.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470201#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Hudler makes 2.75 million a season.

What is the problem here?

This guy plays with Filppula and Abdelkader, and you expect him to put up 60-70 points? That's just not realistic. The wingers that play with Zetterberg and/or Datsyuk should be expected to put up 70+ points a season. The third line guys should have 40-50 points a season if they have good years. And that's what Hudler does. I have a feeling that if Hudler sees some regular time with Datsyuk this year, he's going to go on some streaks that will make people want him back after this season that don't want him back now.

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Funny how the Hudler bashing continues to exist.

FACTS:

Hudler has played on the third line for most of his career in Detroit.

Hudler has a .5 points a game average (regular season/playoffs) over his career in Detroit.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470201#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Hudler makes 2.75 million a season.

What is the problem here?

This guy plays with Filppula and Abdelkader, and you expect him to put up 60-70 points? That's just not realistic. The wingers that play with Zetterberg and/or Datsyuk should be expected to put up 70+ points a season. The third line guys should have 40-50 points a season if they have good years. And that's what Hudler does. I have a feeling that if Hudler sees some regular time with Datsyuk this year, he's going to go on some streaks that will make people want him back after this season that don't want him back now.

There's also the fact that Hudler ran to the KHL for more money, then came back to the Wings and his play had taken giant leaps backwards.

I don't get bent out of shape about the loyalty thing. Ultimately it's a business. But I wonder what kind of player he'd be now had he stayed. He missed an NHL season, then spent the first half of last season just getting back to where he was.

This season will likely be the one he could've had in 2010.

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In terms of his role with the team, he is a little Kozlov-esque, isn't he? Great, skilled player, but for a variety of reasons, not integral.

There's nothing ensuring his stay here, but consider the following:

-Holland and Co. rarely make deadline deals, no matter what the case.

-DRW put a premium on team chemistry, and Hudler knows the system.

-If he's playing well, he's obviously valuable to us.

-He's not costing us that much, really.

Like many other players, Huds could always be traded, but it'd be for something we want in return. This thread seems to suggest a Leino-esque 'dump', not gonna happen.

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Funny how the Hudler bashing continues to exist.

FACTS:

Hudler has played on the third line for most of his career in Detroit.

Hudler has a .5 points a game average (regular season/playoffs) over his career in Detroit.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470201#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Hudler makes 2.75 million a season.

What is the problem here?

This guy plays with Filppula and Abdelkader, and you expect him to put up 60-70 points? That's just not realistic. The wingers that play with Zetterberg and/or Datsyuk should be expected to put up 70+ points a season. The third line guys should have 40-50 points a season if they have good years. And that's what Hudler does. I have a feeling that if Hudler sees some regular time with Datsyuk this year, he's going to go on some streaks that will make people want him back after this season that don't want him back now.

He is a tradeable piece, one of the few.

He plays no defense.

This team hasnt made it past the 2nd round for 2 years, something needs to change.

Hudler could have enough trade value that he gonna supply this team with something it needs more than him.

Plus he dipped for mo money, and mo money mo problems.

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Alright I am done, there is no reason for a negative 12 for simply making a placeholder for the conversation we always have.

It was done so every other thread doesn't turn into it.

Got like plus three for running a draft thread that took my entire evening and get a negative 12 for a post to try and keep other threads clean. I am sick of anonymous internet hate.

First, do you really care this much about the +/- that your thread gets?

Next, understand that your thread appeared, at first glance, as yet another knee-jerk (and, in this case, absurd) trade proposal.

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I understand what this thread was supposed to be about and commend you for it. The speds who neg you and never give a reason why, because they hide behind their monitors, are running rampant. These types usually grow up to become internet child predators but the research doesn't it prove it quite yet.

Anyhow, I like this thread because it keeps people (like me) from posting "trade Hudler" in the GDT's and every other line combo or call up, send down thread. It gives the people who like to talk about Hudler (good and bad) a central meeting place instead of sifting through different threads to see who responded to you or posted something about him. You have to realize, some people are so much of a Hudler slappie that if they see the words Trade/Hudler/Sucks or any other negative remark about him they take it as a personal attack, and they neg you. I, for one, am giving him a chance to prove his "potential." But that is not to be mistaken for me liking him. He still is a hunk of garbage, hold out taint on our wonderful organization. I hope he either does great and gets traded or does s***ty and Holland lets him walk July 1st. But don't let that get in the way of him helping this team win, and if he does, super, but I still hope come October 2012, Hudler is not on this team, or at least making what he is worth, and that is no more than $1.2M-ish.

That being said, good luck Jiri, 2 points in 2 games, your value is going up whether its trade or team value remains to be seen.

Edited by LeftWinger
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but I still hope come October 2012, Hudler is not on this team, or at least making what he is worth, and that is no more than $1.2M-ish.

So if Hudler scores 80 points this year and then signs a 5 year, 16m deal with the Wings, you'd be unhappy? That's insane.

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He is a tradeable piece, one of the few.

If he's trade-able, then he has value right?

He plays no defense.

Not true. The centers play defense on the Red Wings. The wingers are less responsible (see Thomas Holmstrom's career). I'm sure Hudler's defense would be just fine if he were at center.

This team hasnt made it past the 2nd round for 2 years, something needs to change.

True. And Hudler was gone for one of those years, so there's no argument here that he's part of the problem.

Hudler could have enough trade value that he gonna supply this team with something it needs more than him.

True. See point number 1.

Plus he dipped for mo money, and mo money mo problems.

True. This didn't please anybody who follows the Red Wings.

Don't get me wrong, Newfy. If we can get Tavares for Hudler, we do it in a second and never look back. I'm not against trading anyone on the team if the price is right. But the point I'm trying to make is that a third line winger playing with a third line center and a banger on the other side isn't going to score 70-80 points unless you time warp him 30 years and put him back on the 82 Islanders. For fans to constantly criticize Hudler's point production is just ridiculous. He's being used as a scapegoat and that's all there is to it. If Holmstrom, Franzen, Cleary, Bertuzzi or anyone else who has a wondertwin centering his line doesn't put up 70-80 points a season, then THOSE GUYS should be taking the brunt of the criticism as far as our offense goes. The Wings got rid of half their slop (Rafalski, Maltby, Draper) this year and will get rid of the other half after this season (Holmstrom, Bertuzzi). Then we'll see a fast, young, gritty team next year.

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Don't get me wrong, Newfy. If we can get Tavares for Hudler, we do it in a second and never look back. I'm not against trading anyone on the team if the price is right. But the point I'm trying to make is that a third line winger playing with a third line center and a banger on the other side isn't going to score 70-80 points unless you time warp him 30 years and put him back on the 82 Islanders. For fans to constantly criticize Hudler's point production is just ridiculous. He's being used as a scapegoat and that's all there is to it. If Holmstrom, Franzen, Cleary, Bertuzzi or anyone else who has a wondertwin centering his line doesn't put up 70-80 points a season, then THOSE GUYS should be taking the brunt of the criticism as far as our offense goes. The Wings got rid of half their slop (Rafalski, Maltby, Draper) this year and will get rid of the other half after this season (Holmstrom, Bertuzzi). Then we'll see a fast, young, gritty team next year.

Well he isnt exactly a third liner.

I wont act like a huge Hudler hater because I'm not, I would rather see him traded for something we need because others can fill his role.

I think the people who defend Hudler say he only plays third line which isnt true, hes with Datsyuk right now and had time with him last season as well as PP time. He also does play on the lower lines a bit as well. Hes the definition of a tweener really.

Those other guys you mentioned aren't even comparable to Hudler. Franzen has the playoff resume, and the ability to take over games that not many players have. Hes the best goal scorer on the team, a good defensive player with a big body that he does throw the occasional hit with.

Cleary almost had 30 goals in 60 something games last year, thats earning your contract in my eyes, and hes a PKer and defensive player.

Bert has the ability to be a physical guy and has had solid production, even he is decent defensively and was being matched against Rick Nash last year.

If Hudler tears up, all the power to him but even if hes scoring 60ish points a year (which is around his cieling i think) I still would love to see him traded because this team doesn't need a guy as one dimensional as he is and could use a guy with other attributes in his place.

If Hudler is tearing up I would love to see him used to get Shane Doan, I feel like that trade could be similar to when they acquired Shanny in the day and just gave them that toughness they needed up front to not only outscore teams but bully them as well.

The higher his trade value gets this season, the better but I think he can be traded for something to put htis team over the top and become a championship squad again.

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Well he isnt exactly a third liner.

Wrong. He's a third liner until someone else gets hurt. That's where everyone goes wrong on here. Everyone WANTS him to be a 1st line winger and score 90 points a season. I got news for you and everyone else = HE IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT WITH FILPPULA AND ABDELKADER AND 10 MINUTES OF ICE TIME.

I wont act like a huge Hudler hater because I'm not, I would rather see him traded for something we need because others can fill his role.

And I'm not a Hudler lover. I think he does well for his size and speed, and puts up decent numbers for the spot he plays and the ice time he's given. I would rather see him traded for something better, as well. Who wouldn't? If you can convince Holland that we need more tough guys (Perry) and less soft Euros (Holmstrom, Hudler, Tatar), you will have my vote of confidence.

I think the people who defend Hudler say he only plays third line which isnt true, hes with Datsyuk right now and had time with him last season as well as PP time. He also does play on the lower lines a bit as well. Hes the definition of a tweener really.

And he scores when they put him with Datsyuk. That's the COLD HARD TRUTH that everybody on here likes to overlook. Hudler is a producer when he plays with Z/D.

Those other guys you mentioned aren't even comparable to Hudler. Franzen has the playoff resume, and the ability to take over games that not many players have. Hes the best goal scorer on the team, a good defensive player with a big body that he does throw the occasional hit with.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471309#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Ok, so Franzen scores .72 points per game (based on last year) on one of the top 2 lines. This is the most over-rated guy on the Wings. He has easily replaced Holmstrom as the guy Red Wings fans most easily confuse as a dominant sniper and feared player. He's hurt ALL THE TIME and doesn't play with any grit. He had a couple good playoff runs that have stoked his reputation. That is coming to an end, though. Again, instead of being a massive guy who crushes people, creates havoc in front of the net, and bangs home rebounds in the goalie crease, he's a perimeter Euro who benefits from playing with one of the best players in the world = Zetterberg. Franzen has a good heavy shot. That's about it.

Cleary almost had 30 goals in 60 something games last year, thats earning your contract in my eyes, and hes a PKer and defensive player.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8466149#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Cleary scores .67 points per game (based on last year) on one of the top 2 lines. I like Cleary. He plays hard, has speed, and keeps his defensive responsibility in check.

Bert has the ability to be a physical guy and has had solid production, even he is decent defensively and was being matched against Rick Nash last year.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8459444#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Bert scores .56 points per game (based on last year) on one of the top 2 lines. Bert is NOT a physical guy and does not play great defense. At one point in time, that was true. He is old and slow now, though. Let's be honest.

And then there's the other top 2 lines winger = Tomas Holmstrom.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

He's gone after this year, so let's just leave him out of this for now. .51 points per game, for arguments sake though.

If Hudler tears up, all the power to him but even if hes scoring 60ish points a year (which is around his cieling i think) I still would love to see him traded because this team doesn't need a guy as one dimensional as he is and could use a guy with other attributes in his place.

I agree with you that the Red Wings don't need another soft Euro. But I don't agree that they need to trade Hudler to get an upgrade.

If Hudler is tearing up I would love to see him used to get Shane Doan, I feel like that trade could be similar to when they acquired Shanny in the day and just gave them that toughness they needed up front to not only outscore teams but bully them as well.

ME TOO!!! Hudler for Doan ALL DAY!!!

The higher his trade value gets this season, the better but I think he can be traded for something to put htis team over the top and become a championship squad again.

The higher his trade value gets, the less a team should want to trade him, right? Would you trade Darren Helm next because he only scores 25 points a season? Hell no, right?

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You got this:

So if Hudler scores 80 points this year and then signs a 5 year, 16m deal with the Wings, you'd be unhappy? That's insane.

From this??

but I still hope come October 2012, Hudler is not on this team, or at least making what he is worth, and that is no more than $1.2M-ish.

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He plays no defense.

This team hasnt made it past the 2nd round for 2 years, something needs to change.

Hudler could have enough trade value that he gonna supply this team with something it needs more than him.

Hudler is better than average defensively. He looks bad defensively because the Wings have guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Helm, Eaves, Cleary, Emmerton, Miller, and Abdelkader on the roster. On a team less focused on two-way play, Hudler would look great defensively.

Yep, Hudler is the reason the team hasn't made it past the 2nd round in two years. You realize of course by saying that, you are crediting him with being a big factor in 2008 an 2009. Which, in turn, suggests that the team SHOULDN'T trade him because he looks to be back to his pre-KHL self this year. Not to mention stronger and faster than he's ever been.

You got this:

From this??

LW defined a future value for Hudler based on a performance we haven't yet seen. We don't know what he will be worth in October 2012. And as I have previously detailed, Hudler's performance (even last year) outpaces his contract based on forward contracts. He is not currently overpaid based on his performance last year and certainly not based on his performance over the last two to four seasons he has played. Shocking revelation, I know. He could be considered overpaid compared to other Wings forwards based on performance last year, perhaps, but that's not a fair comparison. Miller was claimed on waivers after having been previously waived the same season, Eaves was a tryout, Abdelkader and Helm were first year off their ELC, Franzen signed a lifetime deal with a much lower cap hit than it would have at short term, Flip and Cleary signed longer term deals than Hudler (Cleary also got the NTC), Bertuzzi and Homer are older one-dimensional wingers declining quickly.

Placing Hudler's value at $1.2m for next summer is ridiculous, especially when this season is 2 games old.

Don't get me wrong, Newfy. If we can get Tavares for Hudler, we do it in a second and never look back. I'm not against trading anyone on the team if the price is right. But the point I'm trying to make is that a third line winger playing with a third line center and a banger on the other side isn't going to score 70-80 points unless you time warp him 30 years and put him back on the 82 Islanders. For fans to constantly criticize Hudler's point production is just ridiculous. He's being used as a scapegoat and that's all there is to it. If Holmstrom, Franzen, Cleary, Bertuzzi or anyone else who has a wondertwin centering his line doesn't put up 70-80 points a season, then THOSE GUYS should be taking the brunt of the criticism as far as our offense goes. The Wings got rid of half their slop (Rafalski, Maltby, Draper) this year and will get rid of the other half after this season (Holmstrom, Bertuzzi). Then we'll see a fast, young, gritty team next year.

Rafalski was one of the team's fastest guys and was a big part of the offense. Maybe not as great defensively as he used to be, but still among the top five or ten best offensive defensemen in hockey. Maltby and Draper were healthy scratches half of the time. Not the same thing.

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Hudler is better than average defensively.

Hudler is useless defensively.

On a team less focused on two-way play, Hudler would look great defensively.

All the evidence points toward this being a fallacious statement.

LW defined a future value for Hudler based on a performance we haven't yet seen. We don't know what he will be worth in October 2012. And as I have previously detailed, Hudler's performance (even last year) outpaces his contract based on forward contracts. He is not currently overpaid based on his performance last year and certainly not based on his performance over the last two to four seasons he has played. Shocking revelation, I know. He could be considered overpaid compared to other Wings forwards based on performance last year, perhaps, but that's not a fair comparison. Miller was claimed on waivers after having been previously waived the same season, Eaves was a tryout, Abdelkader and Helm were first year off their ELC, Franzen signed a lifetime deal with a much lower cap hit than it would have at short term, Flip and Cleary signed longer term deals than Hudler (Cleary also got the NTC), Bertuzzi and Homer are older one-dimensional wingers declining quickly.

I like how Hudler is playing so far, and I hope it continues. That said, I think the notion that last season's performance justified his salary is absurd, especially given his one-dimensional play and the fact that he was invisible for half the season.

Placing Hudler's value at $1.2m for next summer is ridiculous, especially when this season is 2 games old.]

Agreed.

Rafalski was one of the team's fastest guys and was a big part of the offense. Maybe not as great defensively as he used to be, but still among the top five or ten best offensive defensemen in hockey. Maltby and Draper were healthy scratches half of the time. Not the same thing.

Rafalski was very good.

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Ok, so Franzen scores .72 points per game (based on last year) on one of the top 2 lines. This is the most over-rated guy on the Wings. He has easily replaced Holmstrom as the guy Red Wings fans most easily confuse as a dominant sniper and feared player. He's hurt ALL THE TIME and doesn't play with any grit. He had a couple good playoff runs that have stoked his reputation. That is coming to an end, though. Again, instead of being a massive guy who crushes people, creates havoc in front of the net, and bangs home rebounds in the goalie crease, he's a perimeter Euro who benefits from playing with one of the best players in the world = Zetterberg. Franzen has a good heavy shot. That's about it.

Holmstrom has never been confused as a dominant sniper or feared player.

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Holmstrom has never been confused as a dominant sniper or feared player.

Well, he's been called the Demolition Man and has been given 1st unit power play time for the last 10 years. While I'll admit that Holmstrom has some rare skills in front of the net that a lot of other players do not possess, I won't admit that those skills are more valueable than having a guy who can rifle shots into the corners from the high slot on the power play. The Red Wings make a lot of sacrifices on their power play to have Holmstrom standing up in front of the goalie exclusively.

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Well, he's been called the Demolition Man and has been given 1st unit power play time for the last 10 years. While I'll admit that Holmstrom has some rare skills in front of the net that a lot of other players do not possess, I won't admit that those skills are more valueable than having a guy who can rifle shots into the corners from the high slot on the power play. The Red Wings make a lot of sacrifices on their power play to have Holmstrom standing up in front of the goalie exclusively.

They must be doing something right, their PP was fifth most efficient last season, and has consistently been one of the best in the NHL since time immemorial.

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So if Hudler scores 80 points this year and then signs a 5 year, 16m deal with the Wings, you'd be unhappy? That's insane.

I guess if he scored 80+ and signed for only just over $3M, I wouldn't be too upset. But I would hate for him to hold out for his KHL type money. Hell he turned down $3.5M after scoring 57 points, so I highly doubt he'd take less than that after scoring 80. In my opinion, what is best is him bouncing back, or better, then being dealt on the deadline. He has a history of being greedy and running for the money, so I would think Holland would try to get something for him, because he isn't gonna pay him $5M that he will no doubt ask for. Good for him if he gets his payday, but not here...

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I am not placing his value at $1.2M based on two games, I am basing it on last season and if he does not improve on it this season. So if he gets 30-40pts, I wouldn't mind him re-signing for around $1.2M to maybe $1.5M, which is what his performance from last season is worth. But if he does get 80pts, he will not accept a 5yr $16M contract since he has already once turned down $3.5M after get 57 points. He will ask for at least $5M if he scores 80pts and even at 80pts, $5M is way too much for Hudler on this team. If he did get 80pts and accepted an offer of around $3.2M per year, I would be fine with that too. But history shows what he is about, and its not hometown discounts...

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Just wanted to say that I was definitely wrong to count out Hudler so quick. He's been real solid so far these past three games and hopefully him, Filppula and Franzen can keep it going all year together.

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