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[kipwinger 8,524]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

 Hey. These are the sacrifices you gotta make if you want to win 1 out of what should have been at least 3 cups during your coaching career. 

At least three, if he's the super coach that everyone said he was. Babs' reputation was entirely built on the Olympics. He was able to win gold with super teams and everyone started conveniently forgetting that when he was given extremely competitive NHL rosters he usually dropped the ball. He has the exact same success rate in the NHL as Peter Laviolette despite the latter never coaching half the talent that Babs did. He's never been as good as his acolytes said he was.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

At least three, if he's the super coach that everyone said he was. Babs' reputation was entirely built on the Olympics. He was able to win gold with super teams and everyone started conveniently forgetting that when he was given extremely competitive NHL rosters he usually dropped the ball. He has the exact same success rate in the NHL as Peter Laviolette despite the latter never coaching half the talent that Babs did. He's never been as good as his acolytes said he was.

I will always blame him for 2009

[kipwinger 8,524]

25 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I will always blame him for 2009

IMO 2005-06 was the worst. He had SOOOO much talent. FOUR 80+ point players. EIGHT 20+ goal scorers. Stars on offense, stars on defense, quality depth goaltending. Leadership. Youth. Everything. Lost in the 1st round to bottom feeder Edmonton. What a f*cking disaster.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I will always blame him for 2009

Lidstrom was hurt in game 5, and he played the s*** out of him on a pulled groin.  That was a mistake.  I might have done the same cuz Nick F'ing Lidstrom, but it hurt us.

[kipwinger 8,524]

6 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Lidstrom was hurt in game 5, and he played the s*** out of him on a pulled groin.  That was a mistake.  I might have done the same cuz Nick F'ing Lidstrom, but it hurt us.

And Datsyuk was hurt too. But you'll recall it was Pittsburgh's 3rd line that absolutely killed us that series. I think we were icing Hudler-Filppula-Samuelsson and they had Kennedy-Staal-Talbot. That line came up huge for them.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

And Datsyuk was hurt too. But you'll recall it was Pittsburgh's 3rd line that absolutely killed us that series. I think we were icing Hudler-Filppula-Samuelsson and they had Kennedy-Staal-Talbot. That line came up huge for them.

yup.  Great series.

[F.Michael 4,590]

Just learned about this now, but Chelios will not return to ESPN this fall.

https://nypost.com/2023/06/05/nhl-analyst-chris-chelios-among-espns-payroll-cuts/

[Dabura 12,207]

Babcock got one Cup out of a string of absolute powerhouse teams. Borderline embarrassing to think about.

[bIueadams 776]

10 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I think there's probably a difference between being demanding and being a prick right? Like, requiring players to work hard, follow a game plan, don't blow their assignments, etc. and then holding them accountable when they don't do their job might be considered demanding. But I'd be surprised if players thought it was unreasonable. Playing weird mind games with rookies (Marner), arbitrarily benching/scratching established players for marquee games (Chelios, Spezza, Modanao), and verbally belittling players (Franzen) is probably considered unreasonable to most players. Guys wouldn't be in the NHL if they couldn't handle being pushed really hard. But I think most guys have the right to expect their coach not to cross certain lines. FWIW Babcock himself admitted that he steps over the line during an interview he did for the HBO 24/7 series that aired before the Wings/Leafs outdoor game.

I don't disagree with any of the points you made really, but I'll speak anecdotally and otherwise for a sec if you care or not.

It's pretty obvious that Babs conforms to the school of thought that players should HATE their coach. It sounds counter-intuitive, but it's a pretty effective and respected school of thought. It's the sociological presence of the "other" or the "criminal". When you give people something to hate, they tend to unite in solidarity of the thing they hate. Players who might not otherwise have any connection can connect in their hatred of their demanding coach. On the flipside, being nice to someone (a player) might gain their loyalty, but it doesn't inspire unity among the crowd.

From a sociological perspective, hatred is often more unifying than freedom and love and being nice.

From an anecdotal perspective, I remember my first year in college sports, we had a coach we loved and was friends with us.  We finished last in our division and he got fired. We were pissed. Our next year the university brought in a guy who was a total jackass and abused us physically and mentally. We won a national title in the 2nd year of his tenure despite our complaints. And I still hate him. But I also realize he probably coached us to a championship.

That's why Chelios said you hate Bowman 364 days of the year, but on day 365 you get a cup and its all worth it. 

 

9 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

 Hey. These are the sacrifices you gotta make if you want to win 1 out of what should have been at least 3 cups during your coaching career. 

At the end of the day I don't yhink the coach controls the game as much as people would like. But  I do think Babs is probably the oldest school coach out there. It will be interesting to see what he does with the Jackets, and if he's learned to soften his touch at all.

I'll never understand the hate though. He's probably the 3rd best coach in wings history:

1. Bowman
2. Arbour
3. Babcock

 

9 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I will always blame him for 2009

Why?

Edited June 9, 2023 by bIueadams

[marcaractac 3,963]

16 hours ago, kipwinger said:

And Datsyuk was hurt too. But you'll recall it was Pittsburgh's 3rd line that absolutely killed us that series. I think we were icing Hudler-Filppula-Samuelsson and they had Kennedy-Staal-Talbot. That line came up huge for them.

People also forget that Rafalski was basically a cripple at that point. That goal where Jordan Staal blew by him to score was the turning point of that series. You could feel the new life that goal gave that team going forward. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

9 hours ago, bIueadams said:

I don't disagree with any of the points you made really, but I'll speak anecdotally and otherwise for a sec if you care or not.

It's pretty obvious that Babs conforms to the school of thought that players should HATE their coach. It sounds counter-intuitive, but it's a pretty effective and respected school of thought. It's the sociological presence of the "other" or the "criminal". When you give people something to hate, they tend to unite in solidarity of the thing they hate. Players who might not otherwise have any connection can connect in their hatred of their demanding coach. On the flipside, being nice to someone (a player) might gain their loyalty, but it doesn't inspire unity among the crowd.

From a sociological perspective, hatred is often more unifying than freedom and love and being nice.

From an anecdotal perspective, I remember my first year in college sports, we had a coach we loved and was friends with us.  We finished last in our division and he got fired. We were pissed. Our next year the university brought in a guy who was a total jackass and abused us physically and mentally. We won a national title in the 2nd year of his tenure despite our complaints. And I still hate him. But I also realize he probably coached us to a championship.

That's why Chelios said you hate Bowman 364 days of the year, but on day 365 you get a cup and its all worth it. 

 

At the end of the day I don't yhink the coach controls the game as much as people would like. But  I do think Babs is probably the oldest school coach out there. It will be interesting to see what he does with the Jackets, and if he's learned to soften his touch at all.

I'll never understand the hate though. He's probably the 3rd best coach in wings history:

1. Bowman
2. Arbour
3. Babcock

 

Why?

Congrats on the bowling championship. 

Jacques Demers > Babcock

Cuz he had home ice, last change, and got out coached in game 7 by Dan ******* Bylsma. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

There's a big difference between a coach the players hate because he makes them work harder than they want to/do things they dont want to and a coach the players hate because he condescends to them and demeans/embarrasses them in front of others.  Bowman had a big ego, but he backed it up with a string of coaching success like no other.  Babcock has a big ego, but he has had only moderate success considering the talent of his teams.  Now we'll see how Babs does with a bottom feeder.  Bowman coached the Blues into a cup final from the Bottom.  Lets see what Babcock can do with the Blue Jackets.

[kipwinger 8,524]

3 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

There's a big difference between a coach the players hate because he makes them work harder than they want to/do things they dont want to and a coach the players hate because he condescends to them and demeans/embarrasses them in front of others.  Bowman had a big ego, but he backed it up with a string of coaching success like no other.  Babcock has a big ego, but he has had only moderate success considering the talent of his teams.  Now we'll see how Babs does with a bottom feeder.  Bowman coached the Blues into a cup final from the Bottom.  Lets see what Babcock can do with the Blue Jackets.

Much as I hate to say anything positive about Mike "No Event Hockey" Babcock, he basically did this with Anaheim in 2003 when that team rode J.S. Giguere (and trapped their way) to the finals. That team was baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

54 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Much as I hate to say anything positive about Mike "No Event Hockey" Babcock, he basically did this with Anaheim in 2003 when that team rode J.S. Giguere (and trapped their way) to the finals. That team was baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Yah, he earned his stripes that playoffs.  Babs has a great playoff record too.  I think he just needs to learn how to be forceful and tough without being offensive and condescending.  Im excited to see how the panzy blue jacket players react.

[kipwinger 8,524]

18 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Yah, he earned his stripes that playoffs.  Babs has a great playoff record too.  I think he just needs to learn how to be forceful and tough without being offensive and condescending.  Im excited to see how the panzy blue jacket players react.

I'll say two things about Babs. First, his success in Anaheim was entirely because the lockout hadn't happened yet, the rule changes (removal of the red line) weren't instituted, and inferior teams could still trap their way to success if they had a great goalie. What he did in Anaheim could never happen in today's game.  Secondly, because of that season he ended up getting his job with the Wings, and then the Leafs, both of which were powerhouse teams that were going to be successful with or without him because of their talent levels. I've already commented on how well I think he utilized both teams' talent (spoiler alert: really badly) but those factors (as well as the Olympics) are the foundations of Babs' legacy. He's never been that great of a coach, he underachieved far more often than he overachieved, tons of coaches have ton more with less...BUT he was exceptionally successful at managing his career.

I fully expect him to fall on his face with CBJ, just like his mentor Ken Hitchcock did, now that he's going to have to coach a modern era team that isn't loaded with superstar talent to carry him.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

15 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'll say two things about Babs. First, his success in Anaheim was entirely because the lockout hadn't happened yet, the rule changes (removal of the red line) weren't instituted, and inferior teams could still trap their way to success if they had a great goalie. What he did in Anaheim could never happen in today's game.  Secondly, because of that season he ended up getting his job with the Wings, and then the Leafs, both of which were powerhouse teams that were going to be successful with or without him because of their talent levels. I've already commented on how well I think he utilized both teams' talent (spoiler alert: really badly) but those factors (as well as the Olympics) are the foundations of Babs' legacy. He's never been that great of a coach, he underachieved far more often than he overachieved, tons of coaches have ton more with less...BUT he was exceptionally successful at managing his career.

I fully expect him to fall on his face with CBJ, just like his mentor Ken Hitchcock did, now that he's going to have to coach a modern era team that isn't loaded with superstar talent to carry him.

I liked Babcock with the Wings, tbh.  Our team conducted themselves well on and off the ice with him.  I do agree with you that a monkey could have won a cup with the Wings between '06 and '10 tho.  We were loaded.

[kipwinger 8,524]

18 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I liked Babcock with the Wings, tbh.  Our team conducted themselves well on and off the ice with him.  I do agree with you that a monkey could have won a cup with the Wings between '06 and '10 tho.  We were loaded.

As far as his on-ice coaching my biggest issue with Babs was that his game plan was always to clog up the game to the point that nothing was happening and then count on individual moments of brilliance from his stars to provide offense. Offense was entirely incidental to his game plan. During his tenure as coach think about the Wings' breakouts. As soon as we had the puck we'd circle back behind the net and move forward as a 5 man unit instead of stretching the ice. That's insanely conservative. Likewise, there's a quote (I'll try to find it) where he says something to the effect of "I don't want Lidstrom playing as much in the offensive zone". The problem is that the deeper you go in the playoffs the more likely that the other team will have some pretty high caliber stars too, and maybe they'll be the ones providing the moments of brilliance. Secondly, because offense never factored into his strategy he didn't have any good way of generating it in the event that something bad happened. Datsyuk is hurt? You're screwed. Down by a couple goals? You're screwed. Opposition has a hot goalie? You're screwed. Powerplay not scoring? You're screwed.

Edited June 9, 2023 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

As far as his on-ice coaching my biggest issue with Babs was that his game plan was always to clog up the game to the point that nothing was happening and then count on individual moments of brilliance from his stars to provide offense. Offense was entirely incidental to his game plan. During his tenure as coach think about the Wings' breakouts. As soon as we had the puck we'd circle back behind the net and move forward as a 5 man unit instead of stretching the ice. That's insanely conservative. Likewise, there's a quote (I'll try to find it) where he says something to the effect of "I don't want Lidstrom playing as much in the offensive zone". The problem is that the deeper you go in the playoffs the more likely that the other team will have some pretty high caliber stars too, and maybe they'll be the ones providing the moments of brilliance. Secondly, because offense never factored into his strategy he didn't have any good way of generating it in the event that something bad happened. Datsyuk is hurt? You're screwed. Down by a couple goals? You're screwed. Opposition has a hot goalie? You're screwed. Powerplay not scoring? You're screwed.

Yah, his style revolved around players being extremely sound defensively and playing up and sown the ice as a unit.  And that's what a team like 2003 Anaheim had to play like due to a lack of overall skill level.  But the Red Wings were one of the most skilled teams in the league when Babcock had them.  When you have guys that can beat defenseman 1 on 1 (Dats, Zetts, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, etc), it's detrimental not to stretch the ice and make the other team keep their forwards at bay.  When both teams are playing so conservative, then you're just down to a coinflip on who gets the breaks.  And we lost that flip in 2009.  In hindsight, that was a bad M.O. considering our team was a lot older than Pittsburgh's.

[F.Michael 4,590]

Hmmm…

https://www.wtnh.com/on-air/thisweekinconnecticut/gov-ned-lamont-has-group-with-money-to-buy-arizona-coyotes-move-them-to-hartford/

[Axl Foley 222]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:30 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

Yah, his style revolved around players being extremely sound defensively and playing up and sown the ice as a unit.  And that's what a team like 2003 Anaheim had to play like due to a lack of overall skill level.  But the Red Wings were one of the most skilled teams in the league when Babcock had them.  When you have guys that can beat defenseman 1 on 1 (Dats, Zetts, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, etc), it's detrimental not to stretch the ice and make the other team keep their forwards at bay.  When both teams are playing so conservative, then you're just down to a coinflip on who gets the breaks.  And we lost that flip in 2009.  In hindsight, that was a bad M.O. considering our team was a lot older than Pittsburgh's.

Wings were #1 seeds from 94 to 96 with 0 Finals wins to show for it. 99 to 01 was 3 more years of underachieving before Bowman was gifted the best team to ever be assembled to win his last Cup as HC in 02.

 Bowman had just as many disappointing seasons as Babcock, despite having more talent to win with.

8 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Hmmm…

https://www.wtnh.com/on-air/thisweekinconnecticut/gov-ned-lamont-has-group-with-money-to-buy-arizona-coyotes-move-them-to-hartford/

Not happening. Too many close teams geographically and another conference realignment.

[F.Michael 4,590]

13 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

 

Not happening. Too many close teams geographically and another conference realignment.

Not likely - however there’s been talk about another round of expansion - Salt Lake City and Atlanta…

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

9 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Not likely - however there’s been talk about another round of expansion - Salt Lake City and Atlanta…

Phoenix has to move

[bIueadams 776]

16 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Hmmm…

https://www.wtnh.com/on-air/thisweekinconnecticut/gov-ned-lamont-has-group-with-money-to-buy-arizona-coyotes-move-them-to-hartford/

Connecticut is literally just a highway connecting NYC and Boston. And any fans there are already watching the booins or rags. They dont need a franchise.

Gary will opt for SLC or Atlanta part deux.

Also I'm pretty sure Carolina still owns anything Whalers affiliated. A team would have to buy all that crap from them, so itd likely end up becoming a brand new team like the Hartford Sperm Whales or something.

Only reason Plymouth Whalers could use the name was cause Karmanos owned both Carolina and Plymouth.

Edited June 12, 2023 by bIueadams

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

16 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Connecticut is literally just a highway connecting NYC and Boston. And any fans there are already watching the booins or rags. They dont need a franchise.

Gary will opt for SLC or Atlanta part deux.

Also I'm pretty sure Carolina still owns anything Whalers affiliated. A team would have to buy all that crap from them, so itd likely end up becoming a brand new team like the Hartford Sperm Whales or something.

Only reason Plymouth Whalers could use the name was cause Karmanos owned both Carolina and Plymouth.

Hartford Whale Tails would be cool.  Big Porsche 911 Whale Tail as the logo.  Countache Whale Tail third jersey.

Whalers is offensive today, anyways.

[Axl Foley 222]

5 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Hartford Whale Tails would be cool.  Big Porsche 911 Whale Tail as the logo.  Countache Whale Tail third jersey.

Whalers is offensive today, anyways.

only to whales