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LeonardSankar

What's Kenny Holland's Offseason Plan?

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No one will trade for Stuart's rights knowing he'll only go to the West Coast. That means very few teams will even be in the running for his services when July 1 hits. The only teams remotely likely to give up anything (likely a low draft pick) are one of the 3 CA teams that want to get the jump on the other 2.

Don't let the facts get in the way...you just answered your own observation. Sure everyone in the NHL knows he is going to California, but there are three teams in California who would love his services. San Jose needs a knew identity, Anaheim is looking for a top 2 defenseman since Niedermayer retired for good. Los Angeles may be a piece or two away from making a serious run at the Cup. So even though a trade scenario would probably only involve three teams, if all three of those teams want him, then you may be able to get something of value in return. Ryan Clowe may be a stretch, but if all three teams are interested, he will get us more than a lower round draft pick. Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact.

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again, this team with Morrow, Parise and Semin on it is FAR superior than having Franzen, Cleary, Hudler. You can have Franzen all you want, I cannot convince you of Morrow, but you don't have to convince me of Franzen, he proves time and time again that he is lazy and has no heart. He needs to go play in a league that has 40-50 games in the regular season, because after that point he is horrible. And his performance the last two playoffs? He isn't worth Helm's salary. And that is FACT. So you can talk down to someone else about not doing homework or not seeing the facts. Facts are this...Red Wings in its current state is a stale hockey club and Franzen is a big reason why...he just proved it....yet again. Time for change.

I like Morrow's heart but he seems broken down and injury prone at this stage of his career. Guys, Kenny is not moving Franzen. While it is frustrating as hell to watch the Mule float around like he's a swedish ballerina, he is still our best goal scorer. We need MORE goal scoring. Not less. His Cap hit does not kill us. It's 4 mil a year. I know us Wings fans always need our couple of scapegoats to pick on but you only need to look at Kenny's past history as a GM that moving Franzen is not likely to happen. Kenny does not make many trades anymore. When he does it's usually acquiring players for draft picks like Stuart and Quincey. His last impact trade was in the summer of 2001 when he traded for Hasek and gave up Kozlov and a 1st. That was 11 years ago. So why is he now going to trade Franzen? Does anyone seeing us getting back a 30-40 goal scorer in return? I don't. For those who think Mule and Flip will get us Corey Perry, it will not happen. Perry is a Hart Trophy winner who has won a Cup and is just entering his prime years. Why would the Ducks deal him for a floating and underachieving Swede who is locked into a massive long term contract? Plus a 2nd line centre whos contract is up after next season in Flip. It makes no sense.

If Kenny can sign Parise then it takes alot of pressure off Mule. I think he will actually be a better player having some scoring help on the Wings. Parise plays with Dats and Mule plays with Z. That's a solid top 4 group of forwards. This makes it tougher for other teams to match up against. Hey I have a love-hate thing with Mule. I know how valuable he can be and I also know how lazy he can be. But for 4 mil a season, I keep him and hope I get more GOOD MULE than BAD MULE.

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. . . you don't have to convince me of Franzen, he proves time and time again that he is lazy and has no heart. He needs to go play in a league that has 40-50 games in the regular season, because after that point he is horrible. And his performance the last two playoffs? He isn't worth Helm's salary. And that is FACT. So you can talk down to someone else about not doing homework or not seeing the facts. Facts are this...Red Wings in its current state is a stale hockey club and Franzen is a big reason why...he just proved it....yet again. Time for change.

And yet somehow Kenny is going to convince someone to take him -- and his eight more years, $27.5M owing -- off our hands? Get back to us when that becomes a fact.

Ryan Clowe may be a stretch, but if all three teams are interested, he will get us more than a lower round draft pick. Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact.

Uh, no. Neither guy is an all-star. One is a soon-to-be UFA aged 32, the other a signed player aged 26. The former is NOT more valuable in the trade market than the latter. There is zero chance the Wings could get a first-rounder for Stuart, and Clowe is even farther from reality.

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The Wings are still a prime destination. Early playoff exits didn't deter the likes of Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille and Dominik Hasek from coming here in 2002. And we've got a lot of money to throw around this season.

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And yet somehow Kenny is going to convince someone to take him -- and his eight more years, $27.5M owing -- off our hands? Get back to us when that becomes a fact.

Uh, no. Neither guy is an all-star. One is a soon-to-be UFA aged 32, the other a signed player aged 26. The former is NOT more valuable in the trade market than the latter. There is zero chance the Wings could get a first-rounder for Stuart, and Clowe is even farther from reality.

I didn't say that Franzenlina would be traded for sure, the fact is, he is the poster boy of whats wrong with this team right now, and should be dealt. You are right that it would be super hard to dump his God awful contract on someone.

Also, if you don't think Stuart is more valuable than Quincey, then I cannot even begin to debate that with you. BTW, Quincey is NOT signed, he is a RFA and if he re-signs for more than $3M it will be wasted cap space. $3M for 5 years sounds about the max for him. I wasn't saying that Stuart WOULD bring back a 1st rounder, but the fact that Quincey cost one, coupled with the idea that maybe all three teams in California may want him, it should bring back more than a "lower round" draft pick. I did say Clowe was a stretch too...

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Don't let the facts get in the way...you just answered your own observation. Sure everyone in the NHL knows he is going to California, but there are three teams in California who would love his services. San Jose needs a knew identity, Anaheim is looking for a top 2 defenseman since Niedermayer retired for good. Los Angeles may be a piece or two away from making a serious run at the Cup. So even though a trade scenario would probably only involve three teams, if all three of those teams want him, then you may be able to get something of value in return. Ryan Clowe may be a stretch, but if all three teams are interested, he will get us more than a lower round draft pick. Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact.

SJ already has Boyle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers, and Murray signed for next season. They also have Braun as an RFA. In total the Sharks have $8.7M in cap space with 9 players to sign (they only have 7 forwards).

ANA already has Visnovsky, Sbisa, Lydman, Beauchemin and Fowler signed for next season.

LA already has Doughty, Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, Martinez and Drewskie signed for next season.

None of those teams are in a position where they would trade for the negotiating rights to Stuart. Even if the Sharks do want a new identity (on their blueline, which clearly isn't the real problem) I can't see them handcuffing themselves by trading for Stuart's rights and then either having to give away one of their current top 5 or be stuck over spending on their blueline.

Anaheim could possibly be interested in Stuart but they're already committed to 5 quality (in their mind) blueliners. If they want to supplement what they already have I don't see why they'd be giving anything up for a chance to sign Stuart. If it's clearly already known that Stuart wants back in with one of the California teams (which obviously that seems fairly apparent) I think the Ducks easily take notice of the fact that they are the only ones with cap space and roster space that makes sense.

LA has 7 d signed for next year. Stuart isn't much of, if at all, an upgrade over their current top 4 (despite what some Wings fans may feel). Stuart is probably a lateral move between the Greene's, Scuderi's and Mitchell's of that roster. Plus, the Kings were willing to lose Jack Johnson off their blueline because they like their kids (Voynov and Martinez) so much. No way the Kings sign Stuart, let alone trade anything for his negotiating rights.

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SJ already has Boyle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers, and Murray signed for next season. They also have Braun as an RFA. In total the Sharks have $8.7M in cap space with 9 players to sign (they only have 7 forwards).

ANA already has Visnovsky, Sbisa, Lydman, Beauchemin and Fowler signed for next season.

LA already has Doughty, Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, Martinez and Drewskie signed for next season.

None of those teams are in a position where they would trade for the negotiating rights to Stuart. Even if the Sharks do want a new identity (on their blueline, which clearly isn't the real problem) I can't see them handcuffing themselves by trading for Stuart's rights and then either having to give away one of their current top 5 or be stuck over spending on their blueline.

Anaheim could possibly be interested in Stuart but they're already committed to 5 quality (in their mind) blueliners. If they want to supplement what they already have I don't see why they'd be giving anything up for a chance to sign Stuart. If it's clearly already known that Stuart wants back in with one of the California teams (which obviously that seems fairly apparent) I think the Ducks easily take notice of the fact that they are the only ones with cap space and roster space that makes sense.

LA has 7 d signed for next year. Stuart isn't much of, if at all, an upgrade over their current top 4 (despite what some Wings fans may feel). Stuart is probably a lateral move between the Greene's, Scuderi's and Mitchell's of that roster. Plus, the Kings were willing to lose Jack Johnson off their blueline because they like their kids (Voynov and Martinez) so much. No way the Kings sign Stuart, let alone trade anything for his negotiating rights.

I agree, and that will probably be the issue. It would be great if all three wanted or had room for him, but if Anaheim is the only one that has room or wants him, then we aren't gonna get anything and he will just leave as a UFA. The idea was IF all three teams were interested there may be a little competition for his rights, but I do see what you are pointing out and totally agree, Anaheim wont give up jack if they know LA or SJ aren't interested. Not unless it's a package blockbuster than includes some other names being exchanged along with Stuart...

...stranger things have happened and contrary to some, that is in fact a reality.

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I didn't say that Franzenlina would be traded for sure, the fact is, he is the poster boy of whats wrong with this team right now, and should be dealt. You are right that it would be super hard to dump his God awful contract on someone.

Also, if you don't think Stuart is more valuable than Quincey, then I cannot even begin to debate that with you. BTW, Quincey is NOT signed, he is a RFA and if he re-signs for more than $3M it will be wasted cap space. $3M for 5 years sounds about the max for him. I wasn't saying that Stuart WOULD bring back a 1st rounder, but the fact that Quincey cost one, coupled with the idea that maybe all three teams in California may want him, it should bring back more than a "lower round" draft pick. I did say Clowe was a stretch too...

So now you're saying Franzen should be traded but likely won't be because of his contract? That's quite a bit different than "If it doesn't take Franzen to get him, then I am trading Franzen for another player that will make this team better."

As for Quincey, you originally said "Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact." So that sounds to me like you believed Stuart was worth more than the first-rounder Quincey cost.

As for the contract status, an RFA is worth more to his team than a UFA because if an RFA signs elsewhere (which won't happen in this case, IMO), you get compensation. Quincey is effectively RW property well past July 1, unless they choose to walk away from him (extremely unlikely, IMO). Stuart can be had for no comp as of July 1, and that fact alone (plus the fact that he is far from a star, and is in his 30s) makes it extremely unlikely that any of the Cali teams would give up a dime for advance neg rights.

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I agree, and that will probably be the issue. It would be great if all three wanted or had room for him, but if Anaheim is the only one that has room or wants him, then we aren't gonna get anything and he will just leave as a UFA. The idea was IF all three teams were interested there may be a little competition for his rights, but I do see what you are pointing out and totally agree, Anaheim wont give up jack if they know LA or SJ aren't interested. Not unless it's a package blockbuster than includes some other names being exchanged along with Stuart...

...stranger things have happened and contrary to some, that is in fact a reality.

I hear what you're saying. But really there's no point in talking about 'what if all 3 teams wanted him' because that's simply not the reality. Also, adding Stuart in as part of a package doesn't really serve any purpose but to make a potential trade look more balanced/unbalanced on paper. At this stage Stuart has little to no value in a trade because of his all but stated intentions in signing on the West Coast. Also, just because it's 'a fact that stranger things have happened in reality' doesn't mean it's going to happen, it's probable that it will happen, or even that it is likely to happen. That's just fluff to say it's possible. Guess what, the Wings could sign Suter for $1M/yr, Parise for $1M/yr, while Lidstrom could return and sign a league minimum contract, and the Stars could trade Morrow to DET for the rights to Igor Grigorenko....it could happen, stranger things have happened

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Any team that has a good core and a good prospect pool (i.e. Florida, St. Louis, Edmonton, Minnesota, LA, etc.). I would say Detroit is more of a safe destination than a promising one. And don't be surprised if Detroit is struggling to get in the playoffs in 2-3 years. Work needs to be done on the prospect pool because right now, players looking to sign long term are not going to be best suited signing with Detroit

Florida has a good core? Minnesota? If I'm a highly touted free agent, with all this parity in the league now, I'm looking to join a franchise that has a long history of success and has shown they know what they're doing and can be competitive every year. We're losing some guys like Lidstrom, but we still have some good years out of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Howard and Franzen. That's a lot more than these other teams can offer. A lot of people said what you just said in 2003, heck I think Fedorov might have been one of them, and Detroit turned it around real quick and became a championship caliber team again. That's the kind of franchise I would want to play for. Not one that makes the playoffs once every three years or collects lottery picks.

Edited by xtrememachine1

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Oh, he is going, his wife cannot come here unless her ex changes the terms of the custody. She can only live so far away from her ex because of their daughter. Stuart will be in California next season. Lets hope Holland trades his rights in order to get something for him!

Yes, I'm sure plenty of GMs will be chomping at the bit to get the rights of a UFA.

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I think we've well established at this point that Leftwinger does not know what he/she is talking about. I can't have a rationale, thought provoking discussion with an irrational, fantasy GM. Waste of time.

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Alot is going to depend on what Liddy does but I too hope that the Wings can get Parsie and Weber this Off-Season!!

How can you possibly support the acquisition of Weber after the Zetterberg fiasco? Sure Weber is a great player and he brings a lot to the team, but he's a punk and i think he won't take kindly to not being a leader in the locker room. For his price, which is rightfully expensive, there are much better possibilities, through trade and through FA. And of course all of this depends on retirement freeing up cap-space. Heres for hoping!

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How can you possibly support the acquisition of Weber after the Zetterberg fiasco? Sure Weber is a great player and he brings a lot to the team, but he's a punk and i think he won't take kindly to not being a leader in the locker room. For his price, which is rightfully expensive, there are much better possibilities, through trade and through FA. And of course all of this depends on retirement freeing up cap-space. Heres for hoping!

Honestly, I think the Wings fans who are hating on Weber right now will calm down as more time passes. Although the Weber incident was pretty s***ty he is still too good and too dominant that the Wings would gladly take him. There was a time when no one would have ever wanted Chris Chelios and now he is a reveered Wing for life. Hell, the Wings have brought in plenty of hated guys before.

Plus, Weber embodies everything the Wings are currently missing on their back end.

That being said, it's irrelevant because Weber is staying in NSH for at least one more year (if not more)

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I would forgive Weber after seeing him in a Wings uniform for .3 seconds.

It won't happen regardless, but you don't turn away arguably the best d-man in hockey over some bitter feelings.

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So let's say we get Suter. What do we do with White? I don't like him with anyone but Nick. Maybe we could package him with Flip and Franzen and deal the trio to the Ducks in exchange for Perry. (I have no shame.) Of course, one of the really nice things about White is he's right-handed...whereas everyone else on our blue line is not. Enter, perhaps, Dennis Wideman?

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White dropping down to 2nd or 3rd pairing is likely where he belongs anyway. He's signed cheap for another year. I don't see the benefit in moving him.

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So let's say we get Suter. What do we do with White? I don't like him with anyone but Nick. Maybe we could package him with Flip and Franzen and deal the trio to the Ducks in exchange for Perry. (I have no shame.) Of course, one of the really nice things about White is he's right-handed...whereas everyone else on our blue line is not. Enter, perhaps, Dennis Wideman?

I actually think White is a little overrated on these boards because of how well he played in the first half. The way I see it the Wings have Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Smith, and White signed for next year. If Lidstrom returns and Quincey is re-upped (which you've got to imagine he would be as Holland moved a 1st for him) that gives you 7 D. If the Wings were able to sign Suter I would like to see White moved. His money can go to aiding the potential Suter signing or going to a forward up front. Despite White being RH I would rather keep Quincey, Smith and Kindl as 5/6/7

Although, I noted in a different thread that if Suter weren't available I actually do like Wideman.

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The benefit in moving him is two-fold: 1) we'd get something in return (which is why you move people), 2) we'd save ourselves from having to use him on the second or third pairing. Like I said, I don't like him with anyone but Nick; his performance seems to drop considerably if he's not paired with #5. And I like Wideman.

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Keep in mind that Wideman made just shy of $4M last year and will probably need a raise as he is coming off a very good year.

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Yes, I'm sure plenty of GMs will be chomping at the bit to get the rights of a UFA.

Were you not around last season? Wisniewski to Columbus, Ehrhoff to the Isle, then to the Sabres just to name a few UFA's who's rights were traded just prior to July 1st. So ya, if he wasn't stuck going only to a California team, there may have been some interest in his "rights."

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