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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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There are only two things that I'm sure of in this whole mess. That Bettman should be kicked out on his ass. The other is that it ain't gonna happen because the owners, in spite of their ineptitude, are making big bucks.

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I was trying to think of ways to fight back and it's hard cause it's the sport I love and I love the red wings.... But...

From this point on for every day we are

Locked out of the NHL is a day I will not spend money on the NHL when it returns....

10 days of lock out means I wont purchase jerseys, key chains, tshirts, mouse pads lol anything... If I purchase anything it will be through private sellers selling there own stuff that isn't linked to the NHL at all... (aka people reselling stuff on here, etc.)

I know I'm only one person but if even more people do this... You can see a difference...

I really only give exception to Winter Classic (if it happens) and tickets because I believe the players deserve to have us watch them just sucks that we have to pay the owners to get them... But I'm going to make my stand for a small morale victory!!!!

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Are you aware how much Don Fehr and his little brother were making?

Well above 2/3 of hockey players.

And his sole purpose of existence - to negotiate new CBA. He failed.

I very much dislike what Battman is doing, but from business perspective his done an OK job until yesterday, while Don Ferh is complete failure.

Are you aware what the purpose of a union is? Foremost, it's the protection of it's membership. Mr. Fehr is trying to doing this now; he's atttempting to get the best available deal for ALL of the members. Uncle Gary is trying to attack what so many other businesses try to do: labour costs. From a "business perspective", this is a blatant attempt at the "easy way out".

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Ok, that's it, I'm moving to Michigan. What am I supposed to do here? The closest thing we've got to pro hockey is a Tier III Juniors team. Oh but wait, we also have college hockey - San Diego State has a club team. I mean, I probably will go to some SDSU games, just so I won't die, but arrrrgh, where are the old school Gulls when you need them? Wish I had the Griffins or Wolverines as a backup plan.

Welp, Bettman can kiss my $$ goodbye. No Winter Classic, no merchandise, no Center Ice (if we did end up getting a partial season), no nothing.

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Last time I checked, even players who never played in the league have agents, lawers etc. to help them with contract negotiation. These are getting paid by players and I haven't heard a player who was forced to sign a contract.

Sometime, reading comments I picture these poor players as 5-year old kids who can barely read. But they are not!

And by the way, I don't think PA and Don Fehr has a say in any of those contract negotiations.

This being a thread about the lockout, I thought it was pretty obvious that I was referring to Fehr's role representing the union in the current CBA negotiations. Not about negotiating individual contracts for players and their owners.

NHLPA is then a redundant organisation. Their bosses are not professional players, they are not running the league, they are not running a professional hockey clubs. Who are they? What they do? Protecting right, keeping players from getting screwed? Give me a one example of a right violated by club/leagu and a player suffering or give me a break.

I have no idea what you are getting at here. The role of unions in professional sports is pretty well established.

Agree. Not yet. We'll see. If season starts on time, I'll send him a post card with warm congrats.

His success or failure is measured by revenue the league generates. This is a most important countable measure of "public confidence in the League". And you are absolutely right, the league revenue has increased by 50% in 7 years.

However, increased revenue does not necceserally means increase in profit. And running a business, a professional hockey club, aims generating a profit. And I supposed you know that half of the league's teams are loosing money...

The part of your post I underlined is an often repeated falsehood, but it's exactly what the league and Bettman want people to repeat.

By the standard Forbes used in a report I think made a year ago, 18 clubs had negative operating income before things like taxes and depreciation. It's not as simple as "over half the franchises are losing money." It all depends on what they are including as revenue, for example the agreed upon definition of Hockey Related Revenue (which the owners want to change). Half the problem is figuring out which franchises are really in financial trouble. Second to that is figuring out exactly why.

It's not up to the players to make sure these owners turn a profit. It's not up to the players to make a franchise in Phoenix successful for Bettman.

While the players length of the CBA was wrong, the idea of slowing their growth to notch down their percentage of revenue is a good one. But with the massive reduction and other contract stipulations the owner wanted, it was pretty clearly a money grab that would only have a chance at working if they locked the players out and broke their will again.

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I think Bettman loses his job when this is all said and done. Seriously, how can he show his face in public ever again without the threat of seriously getting hurt? There's no way he can present the Cup without being completely pelted with food, beer, and garbage, and fans trying to take swings when he walks out.

Probably the worst thing to happen to the owners was they put this system together back in 2005, and now they're crying poor. Why are the players locked out because the owners don't know how to run their sport? Fans and media support the players this time, the longer this thing goes, the more pressure it puts on Bettman and the owners. If anyone caves, it's the owners.

Clearly the problem is the lack of proper revenue sharing, the Floor is bankrupting teams, and there's to many teams in horrible markets. Fehr and the players know this and they aren't giving and inch, and I don't think they have to. The players don't have to do anything until the owners address these 3 issues.

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By the standard Forbes used in a report I think made a year ago, 18 clubs had negative operating income before things like taxes and depreciation. It's not as simple as "over half the franchises are losing money." It all depends on what they are including as revenue, for example the agreed upon definition of Hockey Related Revenue (which the owners want to change). Half the problem is figuring out which franchises are really in financial trouble. Second to that is figuring out exactly why.

Also, all the owners own other businesses, they use hockey losses as write offs for their other businesses when they file their taxes for the year. I own two businesses, the more money you make, the more the Government takes. I'd bet all the owners doctor the books so it doesn't look like they make as much, and those are the numbers they're showing the players now too.

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.... I have no idea what you are getting at here. The role of unions in professional sports is pretty well established.

Protect the rights of players, keep them from getting crewed by owners? B**S**T!!

If their role is so well established, spell it. Give one impiric example of player right violation that can not be spotted and fixed by his agent?

Well, actually, I give one myself. Remember Fehr rejecting realignment despite majority of players and fans liked it...

The part of your post I underlined is an often repeated falsehood, but it's exactly what the league and Bettman want people to repeat...

Really, and why exactly does Ferh keep bringing back subject of revenue share to the table?

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I hate what Bettman does to game of hockey, but from business perspective he is doing pertty job and you have to admit, his employers like it. Yes, he is trying to manage expense and keep business at least viable. Union, on the other hand, wants guaranteed paychecks for its members. See the difference?

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Protect the rights of players, keep them from getting crewed by owners? B**S**T!!

If their role is so well established, spell it. Give one impiric example of player right violation that can not be spotted and fixed by his agent?

Well, actually, I give one myself. Remember Fehr rejecting realignment despite majority of players and fans liked it...

Got a link to verify Fehr rejecting it in spite of the majority of fans and players liking it?

Because what actually happened is the union wanted more time than the deadline the league put on it and requested more information. When they weren't given that information from the league, the players voted overwhelmingly to veto realignment.

It was a tactic by Bettman to make the union look bad that you apparently bought. He dropped a massive change to the NHL on them, gave them a short deadline to respond, and didn't give them very much info to go on.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=384655

http://www.nhlpa.com...sed-realignment

Really, and why exactly does Ferh keep bringing back subject of revenue share to the table?

Because the biggest problem facing the league is not player salary but the financial disparity between large and small franchises. That's not the same as them losing money. The union's propsal, while far from perfect, actually acknowledges that disparity problem and tries to address it. The league's proposals involve just taking more from the players.

One great example of unions membership protection - unions sueing Boeng for creating 4000 jobs in right-to-work state. For me, f*ck such unions.

Unions shoud've been banned after WWII. And they definetly do not belong in professional sport.

I hate what Bettman does to game of hockey, but from business perspective he is doing pertty job and you have to admit, his employers like it. Yes, he is trying to manage expense and keep business at least viable. Union, on the other hand, wants guaranteed paychecks for its members. See the difference?

The section I bolded has nothing do to with the NHL's and NHLPA's CBA negotiation or the lockout, which is the topic of this thread.

Though it does demonstrate that your opinion is based mostly on your hatred for unions and not what's actually transpiring in this lockout.

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Some more meaningless words from the NHL:

http://www.nhl.com/i...641584&cmpid=fb

Working around the clock to make a deal...really?!?! :nono:

I just have to say, that's an awesome avatar.

I laughed so hard about that avatar! :lol:

From this point on for every day we are

Locked out of the NHL is a day I will not spend money on the NHL when it returns....

10 days of lock out means I wont purchase jerseys, key chains, tshirts, mouse pads lol anything... If I purchase anything it will be through private sellers selling there own stuff that isn't linked to the NHL at all... (aka people reselling stuff on here, etc.)

I know I'm only one person but if even more people do this... You can see a difference...

I officially cancelled by subscription for my GameCenter package yesterday. If they somehow get a deal without cancelling/postponing any regular season games I am happy to re-subscribe. However if there is only one game cancelled/postponed I will not re-subscribe this season. :bye1:

Good thing I just started watching NFL since last week for the first time of my life (I live in Europe...) and I absolutely love it, so I will get my needed sport fix! :yahoo:

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I think Bettman loses his job when this is all said and done. Seriously, how can he show his face in public ever again without the threat of seriously getting hurt? There's no way he can present the Cup without being completely pelted with food, beer, and garbage, and fans trying to take swings when he walks out.

Probably the worst thing to happen to the owners was they put this system together back in 2005, and now they're crying poor. Why are the players locked out because the owners don't know how to run their sport? Fans and media support the players this time, the longer this thing goes, the more pressure it puts on Bettman and the owners. If anyone caves, it's the owners.

Clearly the problem is the lack of proper revenue sharing, the Floor is bankrupting teams, and there's to many teams in horrible markets. Fehr and the players know this and they aren't giving and inch, and I don't think they have to. The players don't have to do anything until the owners address these 3 issues.

At this point there can't be any other option. This guy would risk not only getting boo'ed but like you said people throwing stuff at him and trying to get swings, players might not even want to touch the Stanley Cup because of the midget. These greedy owners can love him my ass this time it is different and there is pressure:

- struggling franchises won't survive an extended lockout meaning *his* expansion teams are going to relocate or fold

- players *do* have options *caugh* KHL *caugh*

- fans and media are siding heavily with the players

The owners might have the big pockets but NHLPA has the power in this case.

Surprisingly I am sure the NHL will shutdown all contact options soon but whatever, I am going to enjoy other leagues if those greedy bastards someday decide to provide a fair offer for both sides we will know anyway thanks to tsn.

Sadly things like MLB or NFL aren't options for me becaus I think both sports are extremely boring, tried to watch a Baseballgame yesterday using StreamTorrent but seriously after over 2,5 hours I just had to turn it off it was like waiting forever for something to happen *lol*

Edited by frankgrimes

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Nothing substitutes hockey. Absolutely nothing. I may be American but my national pasttime is not football or baseball. It's hockey. This whole lockout is an absolute joke. Bettman, Daly, and Fehr should all be fired. You knew it was a bad omen when the nhl works out a realignment and Daly comes on the tv and says it's off purely for the nhl to have leverage in bargaining. I don't want to lose a single pre season game, but I can't handle another completely lost season.

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At this point there can't be any other option. This guy would risk not only getting boo'ed but like you said people throwing stuff at him and trying to get swings, players might not even want to touch the Stanley Cup because of the midget. These greedy owners can love him my ass this time it is different and there is pressure:

- struggling franchises won't survive an extended lockout meaning *his* expansion teams are going to relocate or fold

- players *do* have options *caugh* KHL *caugh*

- fans and media are siding heavily with the players

The owners might have the big pockets but NHLPA has the power in this case.

Surprisingly I am sure the NHL will shutdown all contact options soon but whatever, I am going to enjoy other leagues if those greedy bastards someday decide to provide a fair offer for both sides we will know anyway thanks to tsn.

Sadly things like MLB or NFL aren't options for me becaus I think both sports are extremely boring, tried to watch a Baseballgame yesterday using StreamTorrent but seriously after over 2,5 hours I just had to turn it off it was like waiting forever for something to happen *lol*

I agree with you about baseball, I like football, I stopped following it years ago because I like to know all the players in the league and only have time to follow 1 sport. Guess I'm gonna check out some Monday Night Football tonight.

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They can simply return to the NHL whenever they wish, unless they sign for the SEL (Sweden) in which case the league doesn't allow it and any player signing there has to stay for the season.

Thanks for the response, just what I was looking for.

And everyone, keep on topic. Don't devolve into a political debate about unions. I know since this is a political issue relating to hockey, it's hard to walk that line, just keep it focused on the lockout and the NHL.

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So much damn greed.

This is what it all comes down to.

Most people believe that the silly dwarf and the owners are all at fault. The simple fact of the matter is that neither side came down from their initial positions.

The owners insane offer was one the players took insult to. A rollback of over 10%? Limits on contracts? No arbitration? What an insult. Plus, as talks went on, they came down maybe a couple percent, but they didn't budge off the core points.

I know some people give the owners flack for dumbass expensive signings, but the simple fact of the matter is that you have 20 owners who want to compete for a cup so the contracts need some kind of limit on them. Loopholes do need to be closed.

Make no mistake, the players and rich franchises benefited from the current CBA. The players came down from 57% to 53%, but only fir the first year. It then went up to 55% in year 2, and then back up to 57% by year 3 with a player option the next year at the same rate. So, a temporary rollback, which is all fine and dandy, but no concessions aside from that?

The greed that both sides exhibited in this negotiation was surprising. $3.3 billion in revenues and you can't split the pie evenly? No deal to be had at all? Seriously?

I love the Wings. I love hockey. What I don't love is the greed. I am done spending money on the NHL. No more tickets. No more merchandise. Let both sides starve out. I will watch them on TV, but that is the extent of my involvement with the NHL. Oh, no more Center Ice Package. I am not giving these greedy pigs anymore money.

Speak with your wallets people!

My prediction: We are in for a long lockout, maybe another full season. Fehr is going to pull the salary cap off the table. That isn't a bad thing in the long run mind you. It works for baseball, and I would be all for it. If the owners are indeed stuck on their proposal, it is going to be a long fought battle. Keep in mind that while Bettman locked out the players for a full season, Fehr sacrificed a world series to get the deal he wanted. Oh, and I agree with Adam Proteau on his tweet....

The phrase we heard from NHL owners in 04-05 was "cost certainty". Now they want profit certainty. That's not business, that's entitlement.

Get ready for a long lockout everyone!

Edited by Nightfall
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I think Bettman loses his job when this is all said and done. Seriously, how can he show his face in public ever again without the threat of seriously getting hurt? There's no way he can present the Cup without being completely pelted with food, beer, and garbage, and fans trying to take swings when he walks out.

Probably the worst thing to happen to the owners was they put this system together back in 2005, and now they're crying poor. Why are the players locked out because the owners don't know how to run their sport? Fans and media support the players this time, the longer this thing goes, the more pressure it puts on Bettman and the owners. If anyone caves, it's the owners.

Clearly the problem is the lack of proper revenue sharing, the Floor is bankrupting teams, and there's to many teams in horrible markets. Fehr and the players know this and they aren't giving and inch, and I don't think they have to. The players don't have to do anything until the owners address these 3 issues.

What? If the problem is too many teams in horrible markets, then the solution is to eliminate those teams entirely or move them to a better market. In that context, your statement about revenue sharing makes no sense as revenue sharing will *never* fix teams in bad markets or solve the problem of owners who can't run a successful business.

Revenue sharing (corporate socialism) is foolishness from a business perspective - it will never fix underlying problems. Also, the NHLPA proposal to increase revenue sharing was inflammatory to the successful (read: has owners who know how to run a business) franchises in the NHL.

On a side note, all of these raging posts blindly attacking the owners for their "greed" are just silly. Stop with the class envy and jealousy and come to grips with the fact that the NHL is a business, run by businessman... to make money. That does not make them greedy, any more than you wanting more money (prosperity) makes you greedy. It is fallacious to suggest that because they make more than you, they are somehow greedy in their efforts to run a successful business and make money, whereas you are not in your own similar pursuits. Who are you to say how much money is enough, and then label someone greedy for making more?

In summation: get this class envy nonsense out of here - not only is it ignorant, hypocritical, and laden with jealousy, but it's also unproductive to the discussion.

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This is what it all comes down to.

Most people believe that the silly dwarf and the owners are all at fault. The simple fact of the matter is that neither side came down from their initial positions.

The owners insane offer was one the players took insult to. A rollback of over 10%? Limits on contracts? No arbitration? What an insult. Plus, as talks went on, they came down maybe a couple percent, but they didn't budge off the core points.

I know some people give the owners flack for dumbass expensive signings, but the simple fact of the matter is that you have 20 owners who want to compete for a cup so the contracts need some kind of limit on them. Loopholes do need to be closed.

Make no mistake, the players and rich franchises benefited from the current CBA. The players came down from 57% to 53%, but only fir the first year. It then went up to 55% in year 2, and then back up to 57% by year 3 with a player option the next year at the same rate. So, a temporary rollback, which is all fine and dandy, but no concessions aside from that?

The greed that both sides exhibited in this negotiation was surprising. $3.3 billion in revenues and you can't split the pie evenly? No deal to be had at all? Seriously?

I love the Wings. I love hockey. What I don't love is the greed. I am done spending money on the NHL. No more tickets. No more merchandise. Let both sides starve out. I will watch them on TV, but that is the extent of my involvement with the NHL. Oh, no more Center Ice Package. I am not giving these greedy pigs anymore money.

Speak with your wallets people!

My prediction: We are in for a long lockout, maybe another full season. Fehr is going to pull the salary cap off the table. That isn't a bad thing in the long run mind you. It works for baseball, and I would be all for it. If the owners are indeed stuck on their proposal, it is going to be a long fought battle. Keep in mind that while Bettman locked out the players for a full season, Fehr sacrificed a world series to get the deal he wanted. Oh, and I agree with Adam Proteau on his tweet....

The phrase we heard from NHL owners in 04-05 was "cost certainty". Now they want profit certainty. That's not business, that's entitlement.

Get ready for a long lockout everyone!

The CBA has expired 3 times during Bettman's regime and he has locked us out every time. The NHL has never been locked out before Bettman. He uses it as a negotiating tactic. He is responsible for the financial situation they are in requiring this negotiating tactic.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/09/13/nhl_lockout_cba_betmann_bad_for_business/

He is the worst thing to ever happen to the game of hockey

What? If the problem is too many teams in horrible markets, then the solution is to eliminate those teams entirely or move them to a better market. In that context, your statement about revenue sharing makes no sense as revenue sharing will *never* fix teams in bad markets or solve the problem of owners who can't run a successful business.

Revenue sharing (corporate socialism) is foolishness from a business perspective - it will never fix underlying problems. Also, the NHLPA proposal to increase revenue sharing was inflammatory to the successful (read: has owners who know how to run a business) franchises in the NHL.

On a side note, all of these raging posts blindly attacking the owners for their "greed" are just silly. Stop with the class envy and jealousy and come to grips with the fact that the NHL is a business, run by businessman... to make money. That does not make them greedy, any more than you wanting more money (prosperity) makes you greedy. It is fallacious to suggest that because they make more than you, they are somehow greedy in their efforts to run a successful business and make money, whereas you are not in your own similar pursuits. Who are you to say how much money is enough, and then label someone greedy for making more?

In summation: get this class envy nonsense out of here - not only is it ignorant, hypocritical, and laden with jealousy, but it's also unproductive to the discussion.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/09/13/nhl_lockout_cba_betmann_bad_for_business/

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*ahem*.

While I understand this issue makes it very easy to slip into the "unions vs. employers" debate, please remember that this is a hockey forum, and not a political forum. As such, posts about unions that are not hockey related are considered political discussion, which is not what LetsGoWings was established for.

Please keep this discussion on track. Further posts that are deemed by the Mod staff to be political will be deleted, and suspensions could be issued.

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