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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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In the end, if the fans come out hating the players or the owners for the lockout, how does that benefit hockey? I agree that the NHL got what they wanted, but I don't agree that it was good for the game as a whole.

Well, two different things: 1) getting best deal for your side vs. 2) best of the game. Both sides probably lose sight of #2 in CBA negotiations.

Honestly, I'm not sure if pad PR on the owners hurts the game that much, but bad PR on the players would. The owners now have PR on their side and if a deal doesn't get done soon, it will all be the players fault. The owners are the good guys, but when the players eventually come back to play, would the fans want to come and support those bad guy players?

The hope is tough that bad press is avoided by the league now pressuring the PA. To avoid the bad press, they would have to move closer to the league offer. It's actually a pretty crafty negotiation tactic and I'm sure the PA is pissed that they weren't the first to come with the next offer (their fault though).

Edited by toby91_ca

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The NHLPA is negotiating a deal that benefits their wants and needs. I understand and appreciate this.; it's too bad others refuse to.

The NHLPA's behavior during these "negotiations" has been disgusting. Sure, there is no two ways around it. The owners are at fault for the lowball proposal. The players were the ones who sat around until June before coming to the negotiating table. They spent weeks "evaluating" the first proposal. The point of my "two wrongs make a right" is merely to inform you that the players have had a hand in these failed negotiations. So while you like to mention all of the NHL's skeletons, just be aware that the NHLPA has a fair share of blame.....even if you don't mention it.

hillbillywingsfan likes this

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Uncle Gary's track record in "negotiating" speaks for itself. Again, the NHLPA is trying to negotiate a fair and equitable for their membership; not for the owners, not for you and not for me. I get it.

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I've read that over, read Fehr's explanation to players, and I still don't really understand how it works.

It sounds like even though they're not calling it a rollback, the players ultimately will end up with less money than the value of their signed contract.

At the very least players would be giving a interest-free load to NHL through "deferred compensation" even if current contracts were to be paid in full at some point.

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At the very least players would be giving a interest-free load to NHL through "deferred compensation" even if current contracts were to be paid in full at some point.

They already do that under the current system. They have part of their paycheck held in escrow for the season and then once revenue for the year is assessed, then they get some or all of it back depending on where they are relative to the 57%.

As Fehr has pointed out, more often than not the escrow results in them not receiving the face value of their contracts. It's a massive part of the 2004 CBA that often gets overlooked. If you're a player, you've got a signed contract for a certain amount of money each year. During the course of that year, the league holds on to over 10% of your paycheck, and then if it doesn't meet its revenue projections you never see it again. So you getting the value of your contract is dependent in part on some of these owners who have shown themselves to be pretty big idiots.

Add to that the seemingly cloudy definition of what constitutes HRR. There's already been paychecks held in the past while the union and league disputed the revenue amount. It's why having your salary tied to revenue is so tricky. It can take a lot of accounting research to track down all the actual revenue.

One source I found said in 2011 the amount held from players was 12.5%. So imagine 12.5% of all the players salary in the league held for the season. That's quite a chunk of change. And accrued interest isn't part of HRR.

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they had been working on this proposal for quite a while. before that focus group stuff came out.

Yeah no doubt, but you're missing the point. The proposal is not that much different at all from the leagues previous proposals, but with the help of Luntz group, they were able to successfully spin it to the public and get the fans back on their side as a "50/50 revenue split with no salary roll back" Which isn't true at all, not even close.

Edited by sleepwalker

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Yeah no doubt, but you're missing the point. The proposal is not that much different at all from the leagues previous proposals, but with the help of Luntz group, they were able to successfully spin it to the public and get the fans back on their side as a "50/50 revenue split with no salary roll back" Which isn't true at all, not even close.

???

what did the luntz group have to do with promoting this proposal??

if anything the luntz group damaged the league's image due to the leaks of the focus group.

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???

what did the luntz group have to do with promoting this proposal??

Their job that they were brought in and paid to do was help the league spin the leagues proposals to the public as great strides forward and get fan support on their side.

I admit I am assuming, but it seems very coincidental that within days of hiring the Luntz group the league was able to successfully spin and promote more or less the same reworded offer they have been putting forward since day one into "50/50 revenue split with zero salary rollbacks"

Either Bettman and the league suddenly became brilliant spin doctors themselves, the public suddenly all became idiots, or the Luntz group helped the league do what the Luntz group does best. Spin and misrepresent something to the public as something it is not to get the people on their side.

Edited by sleepwalker

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On the issue of whether or not "bad PR" hurts the owners (or the players), I keep thinking back to Steve Young's rant on the NFL ref lockout (before it was completely superseded by the MNF Green Bay/Seattle fiasco). Young said that the league had the upper hand because the demand for the product was "inelastic". Even though the league caved after the extreme embarrassment caused by the replacement refs, I'm not sure he was wrong. The league could have maintained course, and I don't think people would have stopped consuming the product. Gamblers might have laid off, but that's a whole different can of worms. The point is, people can kick and scream an awful lot...and still reach for their wallets simultaneously.

The perception has always been that the NHL has a much more fragile fanbase, but I don't think that's true. I think it's a smaller fanbase. I think it's a niche sport that doesn't translate well to network television ratings. But there was little evidence following the 04/05 lockout to suggest to Bettman that the fans won't be back...after two weeks, a year, or multiple years. I'll be back. Anybody who posts on a hockey board and honestly tells me they won't watch it or spend money on it after being DEPRIVED of it is basically lying to you.

So if you're the players, what are the "PR risks" to them? An NHL player is an individual who receives a salary. He needs the league more badly than the league needs him. But he's also a very small part of the collective that is the NHLPA. The players were fairly unpopular during the 2004 lockout (compared to now), but that unpopularity didn't attach to any individual players, unless it was a Jeremy Roenick situation where they said something stupid or offensive. Nobody blamed the lockout on, say, Steve Yzerman. So if it's a question between the players "saving face" with the fans or getting a better deal, I would think a players association led by Donald Fehr will tend towards the latter.

My buddy stunned me today when we were arguing about the lockout - he compared the NHL players going overseas to "scab employees" in a labor strike. That's absurd. Not only does confuse a "lockout" with a "strike", 388 NHL players played in 19 European leagues during the '04 lockout.

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Uncle Gary's track record in "negotiating" speaks for itself. Again, the NHLPA is trying to negotiate a fair and equitable for their membership; not for the owners, not for you and not for me. I get it.

If by "Negotiate" you mean drag their feet during negotiations, not offer counter proposals, and then complain to the press because they are locked out, I agree with you.

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Their job that they were brought in and paid to do was help the league spin the leagues proposals to the public as great strides forward and get fan support on their side.

I admit I am assuming, but it seems very coincidental that within days of hiring the Luntz group the league was able to successfully spin and promote more or less the same reworded offer they have been putting forward since day one into "50/50 revenue split with zero salary rollbacks"

Either Bettman and the league suddenly became brilliant spin doctors themselves, the public suddenly all became idiots, or the Luntz group helped the league do what the Luntz group does best. Spin and misrepresent something to the public as something it is not to get the people on their side.

Agreed. It's hard not to think that a lot of this was due to the consultation.

Bettman's idea of diplomacy is to lock players out, insult them with a first offer and show force.

Whereas 50/50 is a very easy phrase for people to remember. Simple. Sounds fair. Same goes for "no salary rollbacks" even if it's not true. They just finagled it so they could call it something else, but the players will still be taking a significant paycut from year one.

But in a fairly complicated proposal if fans walk away remembering "50/50 and no salary rollbacks," then it sounds like the deal everyone's been waiting for. It's also probably not a coincidence that in spite of Bettman's catch phrase "we don't negotiate publicly" they released the details on the NHL website, which is unprecedented.

Basically none of how this is presented seems like the Bettman we know. It was much more nuanced.

Don't get me wrong, wether it was the consultants or not, I'm happy Bettman and the owners finally put together a reasonable deal to negotiate from and presented it in a fashion that wasn't the equivalent of "F-you!" I wish they'd hired these guys sooner. Though honestly a lot of this change may have been a result of the info they got on how pissed fans were about this lockout and how unnecessary it seems.

If they're using the existing form of HRR, then the owners movement to 50% is significant. Most everything else sounds like the old deal with new fancier packaging.

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http://www.sportsnet..._fehr_to_nhlpa/

In the wake of the NHL's new proposal to its players' union Tuesday that was intended to kick-start the Collective Bargaining Agreement and end the month-long lockout, Donald Fehr, the NHLPA's executive director, spent Tuesday afternoon reviewing the league document before issuing an email to players outlining specific points Fehr views as problematic.

The letter, attained by Sportsnet’s HOCKEY CENTRAL department, can be viewed in its entirety below.

It is expected that Fehr and the union will craft a response to the proposal Thursday when the sides meet again in Toronto.

If you really want some insight into what the PA is thinking, read the letter Fehr wrote. I also don't think it was accidental this was made public. Moar PR.

Edited by rrasco

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http://www.sportsnet..._fehr_to_nhlpa/

If you really want some insight into what the PA is thinking, read the letter Fehr wrote. I also don't think it was accidental this was made public. Moar PR.

This is the part that concerns me the most...

Given the enormous concessions players made in the last round, plus 7 years of record revenue reaching $3.3 Billion last season, there is no reason for a reduction in the amount players receive.

So, in short, if Fehr has dug in, we are in for a long fight. I hope that he is at least willing to concede something. Otherwise, the season is on deep freeze.

hillbillywingsfan likes this

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If by "Negotiate" you mean drag their feet during negotiations, not offer counter proposals, and then complain to the press because they are locked out, I agree with you.

Lockout X 3. This tactic shows a total alienation from both the entire process of collective bargaining and a of your employees.

http://www.sportsnet..._fehr_to_nhlpa/

If you really want some insight into what the PA is thinking, read the letter Fehr wrote. I also don't think it was accidental this was made public. Moar PR.

On today's episode of OTR on TSN, Michael Landsberg said that the "leak" was provided by the League; he said "NHL" and not "NHLPA.

The more I think about it, he may have been referring to the details of there "lipstick-on-a-pig" offer.

Edited by cusimano_brothers
Rick D likes this

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so where does the realignment of the conferences fit in all of this? wonder if that will come into play in these negotiations before all said and done

Edited by chances14

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http://www.sportsnet..._fehr_to_nhlpa/

If you really want some insight into what the PA is thinking, read the letter Fehr wrote. I also don't think it was accidental this was made public. Moar PR.

I love the way Fehr is doing this, he is keeping all the players informed and giving them exactly the data they need. Reading the comments on some of the more well known sites makes me think, some people can't even be bothered to read more than a headline "oh wow 50:50 split" and then they stop reading to me that is funny and really showing their "attention-spawn".

If am Fehr my counter would be, ok 50:50 BUT HRR is defined the same way, all other things are staying the same too and no contract lenght cap.

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I totally agree. The NHLPA is so much further ahead, in terms of leadership in this round of negotiations, than at any other times in their history.

Communication and participation at all levels is better than ever. Of course, it had been at such an all time low...

Now the bad news, in the form of a prediction:

“MAKE WHOLE” PROVISION
= deal breaker.

From Toronto Star :

The players have fretted that they’d have to take a rollback to fit under a lower salary cap. Bettman is allowing teams to exceed the salary cap this year — estimated now at $59.9 million — without penalty. Bettman still wants players to pay a share of their salary into an escrow account with the money to be paid a year or two down the line.

It’s a creative solution to the problem, but one that essentially sees the players of the future pay the salaries of the players of today. The future payments to make today’s players “whole” would come out of the players’ share of revenue, driving down salaries for that particular year.

If that single provision isn't tweaked, it's over, Johnny.

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We're all thinking it, so Dreger decided to tweet it...

Today is most significant to date in the CBA (negotiations). If PA proposal prompts ongoing talk there will be hockey. If not season is in jeopardy.

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I wish they would just drop the all-star break. It's as worthless as teats on a boar hog.

I am a fan of the saying "As worthless as Nipples on a breast plate" lol

hillbillywingsfan likes this

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I am a fan of the saying "As worthless as Nipples on a breast plate" lol

phrase of preference aside, I think the players like the all-star break because for those not playing, it's a nice break halfway through a grueling season.

Those who have to play in the dog and pony show all weekend may have a different answer though. Plus that weekend is really about sponsors, who are probably already unhappy given the lockout.

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Whatever CBA they come up with this time around, we're just going to be right back here in 5 years. Unless the fans hit them where it hurts, they won't start negotiating until the 11th hour again.

These bastards forced me to check in on BASEBALL. Not sure how long it's going to take me to forgive them for that.

haroldsnepsts and 55fan like this

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I am a fan of the saying "As worthless as Nipples on a breast plate" lol

As in...

Clooney-Batman-500x330.jpg

Bettman thinks the lockout is not only a great negotiating tactic but also great marketing.

http://www.theonion....l-lockou,29921/

Just remember that the Onion is satire, and is not meant to be taken seriously...

Looks like some big guns are coming to the table on both sides today. Beyond the usual 4 (Bettman, Daly, Fehr & Fehr), looks like Jacobs (Boston), Leipold (Minnesota), Edwards (Calgary) and Leonsis (Washington) will be present for the League. The PA will have Craig Adams, Brad Boyes, Chris Campoli, David Clarkson, Dan Cleary, Carlo Colaiacovo, Sidney Crosby, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Shawn Horcoff, Jarome Iginla, Robyn Regehr, Eric Staal, Matt Stajan, Shawn Thornton, Jonathan Toews, Kevin Westgarth, and Dan Winnik.

Good to see two Wings players there.

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The Onion probably knows how close they came to the truth in that story. Maybe that's why Uncle Gary is both so dependable and predictable at the same time.

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